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Wings - Flyers Trade Partners?

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The other problem is that the Wings already have 2 forwards on life-time contracts. Adding another life-time forward will only make the future even murkier. At some point Z and Franzen will both be overpaid. That's a sacrifice Holland made to keep them cheap now. It's unreasonable to expect they will retire soon after their play drops below the expectations of their cap hits.

3 forwards on life-time contracts sets the Wings up for tough times in the future.

Just remember how people bitched and moaned about Rafalski being a bit overpaid this season. Given his production he was probably only overpaid by 0.5 to 1 million (at the most-- many would argue he was paid a reasonable amount based on where salaries are at right now). Zetterberg will eventually be overpaid by a significantly larger margin. It's highly unlikely a 36 year old Zetterberg will be worth 6 mil. I pray he will be, but few players are at that age (especially players with an injury history like his).

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I can't see the Flyers trading away Carter. He's too good and has too much upside. If anything, Holmgren will likely deal Versteeg and maybe Carle. He may have to let Leino leave as a UFA. The Flyers have alot of forward depth. Holmgren would likely deal Hartnell before Carter. All these Carter rumours are just speculation at this point.

Agreed.

I don't see the Flyers moving Carter anytime soon...Though the rumors bring back fond memories when we acquired Shanahan...That was just plain awesome!

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I just don't see anyone on Philly's roster that Holland would really want to trade for, unless he plans to go after one of their top six. Even then, the Wings wouldn't really be able to or want to match what other teams would offer because the organization's philosophy is to develop from within while other GMs will undoubtedly overpay for the Flyers' higher-caliber players.

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

Agreed.

I don't see the Flyers moving Carter anytime soon...Though the rumors bring back fond memories when we acquired Shanahan...That was just plain awesome!

Ah yes the memories. Shanahan and Brian Glynn for Keith Primeau, Paul Coffey and a 1st round pick. One of the best trades in Red Wings history. Got in a fight in his first game as a Red Wing. :thumbup:

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Ah yes the memories. Shanahan and Brian Glynn for Keith Primeau, Paul Coffey and a 1st round pick. One of the best trades in Red Wings history. Got in a fight in his first game as a Red Wing. :thumbup:

Yeah - I remember reading the Hockey News that Shanny wasn't happy in Hartford, and speculation of being traded began in the late spring/early summer of 1996...With Primeau sulking for the better portion of 4 years - it seemed like a match made in heaven.

Edited by F.Michael

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Unloading Hudler and getting Carter seems too good to be true. Im guessing a prospect would have to go along with a 1st rounder or a 2nd&3rd rounder but still not getting my hopes up on this.

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Tradeable top-six forwards the Wings have right now:

Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Filppula, Franzen, Hudler, Holmstrom

Z and Dats won't be traded despite Philly's desire. Homer won't be traded, and Philly won't be interested anyway.

Leaves Flip, Mule, and Huds.

Flip is the logical core of a trade, because Franzen and Hudler are better suited to wing, while Flip is equally strong in all three spots. There would be a remaining core forwards of Richards, Briere, Giroux, Hartnell, Versteeg, and Van Riemsdyk, plus a possibly returning Ville Leino. That would add up to seven top-six level forwards capable of 40+ points. Flip would, of course, not be the only piece in the deal, but would provide a faceoff man equal to Carter. Faceoffs are a key point as to why a Filppula/Abdelkader deal might work for Carter. Philly wouldn't trade away their only good faceoff man for a winger like Hudler, who is below average on faceoffs. Blair Betts, at 50.3%, and Claude Giroux (50.046%, or 548 wins and 547 losses) the only player signed for next season other than Carter (54.7%) who was better than a flat 50% who took more than 10 draws.

They will want a faceoff man back. They also can't take too much cap hit back because they need to clear space to sign Bryzgalov. Granted, the numbers being tossed around include both Bobrovsky and Leighton, one or both of whom will not be on the roster, so that's a bit of freedom. But sending Filppula, Abdelkader, Kindl/Smith, and a 1st might bring back Carter and one of Coburn/Carle/Meszaros. The reason I include Abby is because Philly desperately needs faceoff help. This deal allows them to sign Leino simply within the cap relief it provides, and they will have a full roster signed underneath the cap. Thing is, in real life they probably would have to make a deal like this, and then also either trade off Versteeg or not sign Leino, Or perhaps trade two of Carle/Coburn/Meszaros.

They have about $4.5m, give or take, under the cap right now (assuming Bobrovsky is the backup). They have to sign Bryz, Leino, Carcillo, Powe, Nodl, plus O'Donnell or a replacement. Probably looking at the neighborhood of $13m total for those six guys. So... clearing up $8.5m from the cap, are we? Versteeg sounds like a good bet. send him off for a pick and a depth forward or prospect. Cut $2.5m. Now we're at $6m. Let's make that Carter/Filppula deal. Say in the Steeger deal it was a prospect, so we can make Abs work as the replacement for him. Flip and Abs together cut about $4.5m from Carter and Versteeg. Kindl is a savings of $2.5 to $3.25 over Carle/Coburn/Meszaros. So now, all that needs to be cleared up is another $750k-$1.5m. Maybe cut Jody Shelley from the roster and you've got the difference and you drop one of the league-leaders in leaving his team shorthanded.

If Carter IS traded to the Wings in the kind of deal I proposed, I'd like to see a lineup as such:

With Draper:

Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom

Hudler/Carter/Cleary

Bertuzzi/Franzen/Mursak

Draper/Helm/Eaves

Miller/Emmerton

Without Draper:

Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom

Hudler/Carter/Cleary

Franzen/Emmerton/Bertuzzi

Mursak/Helm/Eaves

Miller.

Yes. I realize that I put Emmerton on the third line and Helm on the fourth line. I'm not crazy. Emmerton is more suited to being a playmaking center for Franzen and Bertuzzi, and keeping the DHE (or the MHE, as it were) together as a checking line while putting a playmaker of Emmerton's skill on the third line is better than having no real checking line.

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

Tradeable top-six forwards the Wings have right now:

Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Filppula, Franzen, Hudler, Holmstrom

Z and Dats won't be traded despite Philly's desire. Homer won't be traded, and Philly won't be interested anyway.

Leaves Flip, Mule, and Huds.

Flip is the logical core of a trade, because Franzen and Hudler are better suited to wing, while Flip is equally strong in all three spots. There would be a remaining core forwards of Richards, Briere, Giroux, Hartnell, Versteeg, and Van Riemsdyk, plus a possibly returning Ville Leino. That would add up to seven top-six level forwards capable of 40+ points. Flip would, of course, not be the only piece in the deal, but would provide a faceoff man equal to Carter. Faceoffs are a key point as to why a Filppula/Abdelkader deal might work for Carter. Philly wouldn't trade away their only good faceoff man for a winger like Hudler, who is below average on faceoffs. Blair Betts, at 50.3%, and Claude Giroux (50.046%, or 548 wins and 547 losses) the only player signed for next season other than Carter (54.7%) who was better than a flat 50% who took more than 10 draws.

They will want a faceoff man back. They also can't take too much cap hit back because they need to clear space to sign Bryzgalov. Granted, the numbers being tossed around include both Bobrovsky and Leighton, one or both of whom will not be on the roster, so that's a bit of freedom. But sending Filppula, Abdelkader, Kindl/Smith, and a 1st might bring back Carter and one of Coburn/Carle/Meszaros. The reason I include Abby is because Philly desperately needs faceoff help. This deal allows them to sign Leino simply within the cap relief it provides, and they will have a full roster signed underneath the cap. Thing is, in real life they probably would have to make a deal like this, and then also either trade off Versteeg or not sign Leino, Or perhaps trade two of Carle/Coburn/Meszaros.

They have about $4.5m, give or take, under the cap right now (assuming Bobrovsky is the backup). They have to sign Bryz, Leino, Carcillo, Powe, Nodl, plus O'Donnell or a replacement. Probably looking at the neighborhood of $13m total for those six guys. So... clearing up $8.5m from the cap, are we? Versteeg sounds like a good bet. send him off for a pick and a depth forward or prospect. Cut $2.5m. Now we're at $6m. Let's make that Carter/Filppula deal. Say in the Steeger deal it was a prospect, so we can make Abs work as the replacement for him. Flip and Abs together cut about $4.5m from Carter and Versteeg. Kindl is a savings of $2.5 to $3.25 over Carle/Coburn/Meszaros. So now, all that needs to be cleared up is another $750k-$1.5m. Maybe cut Jody Shelley from the roster and you've got the difference and you drop one of the league-leaders in leaving his team shorthanded.

If Carter IS traded to the Wings in the kind of deal I proposed, I'd like to see a lineup as such:

With Draper:

Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom

Hudler/Carter/Cleary

Bertuzzi/Franzen/Mursak

Draper/Helm/Eaves

Miller/Emmerton

Without Draper:

Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom

Hudler/Carter/Cleary

Franzen/Emmerton/Bertuzzi

Mursak/Helm/Eaves

Miller.

Yes. I realize that I put Emmerton on the third line and Helm on the fourth line. I'm not crazy. Emmerton is more suited to being a playmaking center for Franzen and Bertuzzi, and keeping the DHE (or the MHE, as it were) together as a checking line while putting a playmaker of Emmerton's skill on the third line is better than having no real checking line.

I think Emmerton has to make the team first before he can centre a line. Hudler on the 2nd line and Franzen on the 3rd line? :lol: I'm sure Mule would just love going from having Hank feed him the puck to a rookie trying to make the team. We're not getting Carter.

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

Heck lets ask for Mike Richards too! Richards, Carter, Coburn, a signed mouthguard of Bobby Clarke for Hudler, Kindl and Emmerton! Get er done Kenny!

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carle_orange_1212.jpgnhl_g_coburn_300.jpg

=

:siren:

jeff-carter.jpg

=

train-wreck.jpgtravis-barker-and-dj-am-in-plane-crash-wreckage.jpg

Carter playoff stats:

47 gp 13g 21p -14 34 PIM

Last 3 playoffs' stats:

24 gp 7g 10p -10 12 PIM

Carter's contract:

Runs until 21-22, full NTC from 12-13 to 15-16, partial NTC thereafter. ~5.3m cap hit for Hudler-like playoff stats.

Gag.

Edit: FFS, Hudler's playoff stats are better:

61 gp 10g 31p +4 30 PIM

Last 3 playoffs:

55 gp 10g 29p +2 26 PIM

Edited by Datsyerberger

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I think Emmerton has to make the team first before he can centre a line. Hudler on the 2nd line and Franzen on the 3rd line? :lol: I'm sure Mule would just love going from having Hank feed him the puck to a rookie trying to make the team. We're not getting Carter.

Hudler is with Carter because Carter is a pure goal scorer. You put playmakers with goal scorers. If we get Carter for Flip (plus), which is the most likely swap, and put Z with Dats, who would you put as Carter's playmaker? Cleary? Helm? Draper? Hudler is the answer. Franzen on Emmerton's wing was primarily to allow for three strong scoring lines, but perhaps you can make one of these switches:

Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom (or Bertuzzi)

Hudler/Carter/Franzen

Cleary/Helm/Eaves

Mursak/Emmerton/Bertuzzi (or Holmstrom)

Miller

Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom

Hudler/Carter/Cleary

Bertuzzi/Franzen/Miller

Mursak/Helm/Eaves

Emmerton

Perhaps even:

Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Cleary

Hudler/Carter/Franzen

Mursak/Helm/Eaves

Holmstrom/Emmerton/Bertuzzi

Miller.

Do you like those any better? And what wingers would you put with Carter that provide the goal-scorer a playmaker? I'd love to hear your answer. The Wings, assuming Flip and Abby are traded for Carter, would have three top-end playmaking forwards. Z, Dats, and Hudler.

So again: If Z and Dats are together, you put Hudler with your best remaining goal-scorer. Carter. If you like, you can put both Carter and Franzen on that line. Could be pretty wicked, especially as a second line.

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my brother is an avid flyers fan and cant wait to get rid of carter. he says he is lazy and lacks heart, also a party boy

Yep. And his career playoff stats are worse than Hudler's career playoff stats. His last 3 years playoff stats are worse than Hudler's playoff stats.

Hudler's production in the playoffs * nearly 2x the cap hit + 9 more years + NTC = no thanks

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Sometimes I hate when people say oh such and such player sucks, playoffs are horrible, doesn't produce, etc. I understand the frustrations but sometimes its just a player doesn't fit well with that team. Look at Lieno, terrible here and tore it up in Philly. I think a change in scenes could spark something for Carter. I guess its all a risk.

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Yep. And his career playoff stats are worse than Hudler's career playoff stats. His last 3 years playoff stats are worse than Hudler's playoff stats.

Hudler's production in the playoffs * nearly 2x the cap hit + 9 more years + NTC = no thanks

I like Carter, I think he gets a bad rap because the Flyers in general have sucked it up. But if I had to pick a forward from the Flyers to take in a trade, it would be Richards. Not even a question. Carter would be a good fit as a goal-scoring center, or perhaps if he could adapt to be a winger for Dats (sick!) but Richards we already know can play wing, and is one of the league's top all-around players. His only real weakness is faceoffs; which is not really a problem in Detroit if you give him a linemate who can take draws. Franzen is one I can think of right off the bat. Franzen/Richards/Bertuzzi would be a pretty effective line. That's assuming, of course, Franzen didn't end up going the other way. Or just move Richards to the wing or teach him how to take faceoffs. Whatever works.

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I like Carter, I think he gets a bad rap because the Flyers in general have sucked it up. But if I had to pick a forward from the Flyers to take in a trade, it would be Richards. Not even a question. Carter would be a good fit as a goal-scoring center, or perhaps if he could adapt to be a winger for Dats (sick!) but Richards we already know can play wing, and is one of the league's top all-around players. His only real weakness is faceoffs; which is not really a problem in Detroit if you give him a linemate who can take draws. Franzen is one I can think of right off the bat. Franzen/Richards/Bertuzzi would be a pretty effective line. That's assuming, of course, Franzen didn't end up going the other way. Or just move Richards to the wing or teach him how to take faceoffs. Whatever works.

That sounds great to me! However I think you are on cloud 9 now. No way they would trade Richards. If they do I apologize and Holmgren is crazy! Richards or Carter would make me smile. I'd be glad to acquire either or.

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I like Carter, I think he gets a bad rap because the Flyers in general have sucked it up. But if I had to pick a forward from the Flyers to take in a trade, it would be Richards. Not even a question. Carter would be a good fit as a goal-scoring center, or perhaps if he could adapt to be a winger for Dats (sick!) but Richards we already know can play wing, and is one of the league's top all-around players. His only real weakness is faceoffs; which is not really a problem in Detroit if you give him a linemate who can take draws. Franzen is one I can think of right off the bat. Franzen/Richards/Bertuzzi would be a pretty effective line. That's assuming, of course, Franzen didn't end up going the other way. Or just move Richards to the wing or teach him how to take faceoffs. Whatever works.

Carter has his upsides. He's good both defensively and as a goalscorer when he's on his game. The downside is that he's got questionable work ethic and consistency, and both show badly in the playoffs. He's got a bit of a bad rap for the Flyers choking, but I have no problem saying that he's been a large part of that problem (though it may be part of a 'clique' thing there, I wouldn't rule out that possibility).

Honestly, I'd rather just have one of their d-men and look elsewhere/cheaper for forward. Carle's offense at 3.5? I can stomach that. Coburn at 3.2? Hell yes. Timonen at 6.3 for 2 years? That's fine with me.

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That sounds great to me! However I think you are on cloud 9 now. No way they would trade Richards. If they do I apologize and Holmgren is crazy! Richards or Carter would make me smile. I'd be glad to acquire either or.

I don't expect to get either. They have $4.5m to sign 3 forwards, a defenseman, and Bryzgalov, plus perhaps another forward or defenseman.

Instead of trading out Carter or Richards, I would expect Versteeg to be the first out of town. He's easily the least important of their five highest paid forwards, and he's overpaid for what he provides on the ice. Deal him for a pick and a prospect, maybe sign a faceoff specialist like Draper to take his place. That's $2.5m in space freed up, and they still need to sign 3 forwards, a defenseman, and Bryz. Say Bryz costs $7m. Now we're flat even, and need to free up space to sign 3 forwards and a defenseman. Specifically Carcillo, Nodl, and Powe, plus O'Donnell or his replacement. We'll say the total cost there is $3m for those guys. So we need to free that up. Leino would also be nice. Our options are trading one of Meszaros/Carle/Coburn from the D, or trading one of Briere/Richards/Carter/Hartnell/Giroux from the forwards. What makes sense is to trade Meszaros for a decent young puck-moving defenseman who is still fairly inexpensive. This is where a deal with Detroit actually does work; trade Meszaros for Jakub Kindl plus perhaps a 2nd pick and you have the salary freed up. Philly isn't able to keep Leino like this, but by picking up Bryzgalov that wasn't happening, unless Leino stays for cheap.

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Mursak, a 2nd, Abdelkader for Carter? For Coburn?

I'd HATE to have to part with Mursak as I think he'll be a reliable 20-40 point guy someday, but these two Flyers are studs and we know they need cap relief in a bad way. Maybe throw in our first and possibly Marshall to land both those guys?

I'd go for that deal in a minute. Heck I'd settle with Carter.

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Regarding that deal, I'd rather keep Mursak, Abdelkader, and the pick. Anything I'd trade for Carter would not be good value for Philly. Way too many ???s about him.

Mursak, Abby, and a 2nd for Carter is a steal. There's a good chance only one of Mursak or Abby will be a regular forward on the Wings this coming season. So we're looking at trading a young 4th liner and a young spare forward plus a pick for an elite goal scorer. And age isn't really that big of a factor; Carter is 26, Abdelkader is 24, Mursak is 23. So the only thing here is, do you think that keeping Mursak and Abdelkader, knowing that you'll get maybe 100-120 man-games between them next season and possibly the season after, do you think that beats out Carter's 70-80 games on immediate impact? And do you think having Carter long-term as a top-line caliber player while Mursak and Abdelkader develop into 3rd liners or potentially 2nd liners, and the Wings get a player with the pick who has to go through the development process... which helps the team out more in the next ten years?

I would say that trading for Carter, by a wide margin. If they take a Mursak/Abby deal instead of the Flip/Abby deal I posted, the Wings CAN'T refuse. It would be stupid. The Wings would be able to dress lines like this:

Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom

Hudler/Carter/Cleary

Franzen/Filppula/Bertuzzi

Draper/Helm/Eaves

Franzen/Zetterberg/Bertuzzi

Filppula/Datsyuk/Holmstrom

Hudler/Carter/Cleary

Draper/Helm/Eaves

Zetterberg/Carter/Cleary

Filppula/Datsyuk/Holmstrom

Franzen/Hudler/Bertuzzi

Draper/Helm/Eaves

Most NHL teams would be happy with any of those first three lines as their top line. One to test out of course would be Franzen/Carter/Bertuzzi... but I don't see that one working out very well.

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As I mentioned in the other thread, something that may be overlooked is Laperriere's status. He's on a 35+ deal, LTIR'd for all of last year, and last word was basically that playing again could be life threatening. He has a cap hit of $1.16 that the Flyers may be stuck with.

If that happens, the cap goes up to $63M, they sign Bryz for $6M, and dump Versteeg, Carle, and both of their other goalies they'd have $7.85M to sign an entire 3rd line + 4th line forward + 3rd pair D + backup goalie + 1-3 depth players. It's a tight fit.

Maybe they think having say Hudler + Leino for the same price as Carter + a minimum wage plug would be better. Maybe add a cheap but attractive prospect like Tatar who could either fill a third line role or be sent to the AHL, and a cheap defenseman with some upside...

Hudler, Tatar, Kindl, 1st, + 3rd (plus maybe Emmerton or Andersson) for Carter and Carle. I think it makes both teams better (though I don't know what prospects Philly already has to fill holes cheaply, so maybe not).

FORWARDS

Ville Leino ($3.000m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m)

James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Andreas Nodl ($1.250m)

Jiri Hudler ($2.875m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.840m)

Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Zenon Konopka ($0.750m) / Darroll Powe ($0.950m)

Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Ian Laperriere ($1.166m)

DEFENSEMEN

Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)

Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) / Sean O'Donnell ($1.300m)

Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS

Ilya Bryzgalov ($6.000m) / Brian Boucher ($0.950m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $63,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,673,928; BONUSES: $1,110,000

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $326,072

----------

FORWARDS

Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m)

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Johan Franzen ($3.954m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($1.937m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.787m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)

Drew Miller ($0.850m) / Darren Helm ($0.912m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.950m)

Kris Draper ($0.750m) / Jan Mursak ($0.550m)

DEFENSEMEN

Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.000m) / Brad Stuart ($3.750m)

Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / James Wisniewski ($4.500m)

Jay Harrison ($1.500m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)

Derek Meech ($0.550m)

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Chris Osgood ($0.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $63,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,160,605; BONUSES: $0

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $839,395

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As I mentioned in the other thread, something that may be overlooked is Laperriere's status. He's on a 35+ deal, LTIR'd for all of last year, and last word was basically that playing again could be life threatening. He has a cap hit of $1.16 that the Flyers may be stuck with.

If that happens, the cap goes up to $63M, they sign Bryz for $6M, and dump Versteeg, Carle, and both of their other goalies they'd have $7.85M to sign an entire 3rd line + 4th line forward + 3rd pair D + backup goalie + 1-3 depth players. It's a tight fit.

Maybe they think having say Hudler + Leino for the same price as Carter + a minimum wage plug would be better. Maybe add a cheap but attractive prospect like Tatar who could either fill a third line role or be sent to the AHL, and a cheap defenseman with some upside...

Hudler, Tatar, Kindl, 1st, + 3rd (plus maybe Emmerton or Andersson) for Carter and Carle. I think it makes both teams better (though I don't know what prospects Philly already has to fill holes cheaply, so maybe not).

The problem is, as I've stated before, Carter is Philly's go-to faceoff guy. They won't be dealing him without getting a faceoff guy back. Your deal would either have to see Abdelkader added, or Hudler swapped out for Filppula. Ultimately I don't see it going down without Filppula going the other way; Franzen is good on draws and a good player, but he's older than Carter, worse defensively, and a worse passer. Similar in that both are snipers first, but there's not enough cap relief there. Especially with what is lost. Flip has everything Carter does except the shot. And that's a $2.25m difference, which if Philly is lucky might be enough to buy Leino's shot.

what about meszaros? he would be great in a wings uniform :)

Post about Meszaros

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