Wings - Flyers Trade Partners?

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Look like the Jackets are interested as well.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2011/06/09/philadelphia-center-is-top-trade-target-for-howson.html?sid=101

[Datsyerberger 279]

Mursak, Abby, and a 2nd for Carter is a steal.

The trade is a steal value-wise but it's not a fit for the Wings cap or roster wise at all. Philly wouldn't go for it at all in any case, don't need cheap depth on the wings.

[Barrie 900]

I'd be all for bringing Carter here, however we already have Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Franzen signed to lifetime contracts. I don't see adding another lifetime contract up front with Rafalski retired and Lidstrom a year or two away as well.

[Dimaline312000 51]

I'd be up for trading Hudler but I'm not quite sure that there is anyone on the Flyers Roster that I would really want. Carter included. Let the Flyers and Pathers trade with each other let's go after someone a little bit better and maybe even a little bit younger. Trade Huds for a 2nd or 3rd round pick and have our First round pick be a high quality D-Man even if it meant us trading 2 2nd Round picks for a Higher 1st round Pick to get someone who could help us now.

[kipwinger 8,520]

I'd be up for trading Hudler but I'm not quite sure that there is anyone on the Flyers Roster that I would really want. Carter included. Let the Flyers and Pathers trade with each other let's go after someone a little bit better and maybe even a little bit younger. Trade Huds for a 2nd or 3rd round pick and have our First round pick be a high quality D-Man even if it meant us trading 2 2nd Round picks for a Higher 1st round Pick to get someone who could help us now.

I like the idea of adding Carter, but that's no what I want to address here. Adding anyone that's 26 years old and an established player DOES give you immediate help AND future help. A quality guy at that age is likely to remain a solid and productive member of your team for at least the next 5 or 6 years. Don't get me wrong, draft picks help, and they are REALLY important. But on a team like the Wings, it's very likely a good draft pick won't even break the lineup until he's 25 or 26, and even then, many of them are unknown quantities at the NHL level.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

I like the idea of adding Carter, but that's no what I want to address here. Adding anyone that's 26 years old and an established player DOES give you immediate help AND future help. A quality guy at that age is likely to remain a solid and productive member of your team for at least the next 5 or 6 years. Don't get me wrong, draft picks help, and they are REALLY important. But on a team like the Wings, it's very likely a good draft pick won't even break the lineup until he's 25 or 26, and even then, many of them are unknown quantities at the NHL level.

THIS. This is VERY true. We don't get a lot of guys coming out of GR at age 24 that are as solid as a guy like Carter. We don't have a top 5 pick in the draft (and likely won't for a long time), so waiting 3-5 years to see if that guy is gonna pan out as an nhler is a real gamble if he's not a top 5 pick (which are likely going to pan out). Instead you could have a guy like Carter who we know is a proven sniper.

[Guest Heaten]

Some you people's trade ideas are completely outlandish.

#1 Philly doesn't want our overpaid garbage.

#2 Smith is NOT going to be in the NHL full time this year (probably not next year either) - He's been below average defensively in the AHL

#3 Detroit isn't Philly's only trade partner in the NHL - They can do better getting CBJ's 8th pick, unless Kenny wants to offer up Helm, Smith, and Tatar + our 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. That 8th pick is worth more than our top 3 picks...

That said, Holland could probably get Pronger for a bit cheaper since he has a bad contract...

Edited June 10, 2011 by Heaten

[Guest 13GoWings40]

I'd be up for trading Hudler but I'm not quite sure that there is anyone on the Flyers Roster that I would really want. Carter included. Let the Flyers and Pathers trade with each other let's go after someone a little bit better and maybe even a little bit younger. Trade Huds for a 2nd or 3rd round pick and have our First round pick be a high quality D-Man even if it meant us trading 2 2nd Round picks for a Higher 1st round Pick to get someone who could help us now.

Younger than 26?

[Hockey13Playa 240]

Some you people's trade ideas are completely outlandish.

#1 Philly doesn't want our overpaid garbage.

#2 Smith is NOT going to be in the NHL full time this year (probably not next year either) - He's been below average defensively in the AHL

#3 Detroit isn't Philly's only trade partner in the NHL - They can do better getting CBJ's 8th pick, unless Kenny wants to offer up Helm, Smith, and Tatar + our 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. That 8th pick is worth more than our top 3 picks...

That said, Holland could probably get Pronger for a bit cheaper since he has a bad contract...

Pronger really? No thanks.

[Wings4Life19 150]

That said, Holland could probably get Pronger for a bit cheaper since he has a bad contract...

Why don't you go sit in the corner.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Some you people's trade ideas are completely outlandish.

#1 Philly doesn't want our overpaid garbage.

#2 Smith is NOT going to be in the NHL full time this year (probably not next year either) - He's been below average defensively in the AHL

#3 Detroit isn't Philly's only trade partner in the NHL - They can do better getting CBJ's 8th pick, unless Kenny wants to offer up Helm, Smith, and Tatar + our 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. That 8th pick is worth more than our top 3 picks...

That said, Holland could probably get Pronger for a bit cheaper since he has a bad contract...

You had such a good post going, showing good, solid, rational thought and cognitive reasoning...

and then you ruined it all with that last line...

As Wings said... go sit in the corner and think about what you said.

Edited June 10, 2011 by stevkrause

[Z and D for the C 712]

Tradeable top-six forwards the Wings have right now:

Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Filppula, Franzen, Hudler, Holmstrom

Z and Dats won't be traded despite Philly's desire. Homer won't be traded, and Philly won't be interested anyway.

Leaves Flip, Mule, and Huds.

blah blah blah blah

Yes. I realize that I put Emmerton on the third line and Helm on the fourth line. I'm not crazy. Emmerton is more suited to being a playmaking center for Franzen and Bertuzzi, and keeping the DHE (or the MHE, as it were) together as a checking line while putting a playmaker of Emmerton's skill on the third line is better than having no real checking line.

I like how the article mentions that all trade deals the wings have been thinking of have Hudler as the outgoing player (ie, not Filppula) yet your "logical" conclusion is, of course, trade Filppula.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Z and D for the C

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Some you people's trade ideas are completely outlandish.

#1 Philly doesn't want our overpaid garbage.

#2 Smith is NOT going to be in the NHL full time this year (probably not next year either) - He's been below average defensively in the AHL

#3 Detroit isn't Philly's only trade partner in the NHL - They can do better getting CBJ's 8th pick, unless Kenny wants to offer up Helm, Smith, and Tatar + our 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. That 8th pick is worth more than our top 3 picks...

That said, Holland could probably get Pronger for a bit cheaper since he has a bad contract...

Geez, who are you trying to acquire a 1987 version of Wayne Gretzky? Sheesh!

It's super funny how Eva is always trying to keep Hudler here and trade Filppula..."blah blah blah, don't see a trade happening unless it involves Fil, blah blah blah...Hudler 1st line sniper blah blah blah trade Fil and Franzen blah blah blah Hudler is the Wings best player blah blah blah...hudler..."

of course for some of us, everything involves trading Hudler....blah blah blah Hudler sucks, trade him!

Anyhow I am up for anything involving Hudler's departure! I guess even if it involved Filppula too...

edit: Hey Z and D, you beat me to that point about Eva and Hudler/Fil and also the blah blah blah! Too Funny! Also, funny is he is always saying Top 6 forward when talking about Hudler...dude, Helm is a better top 6 forward than Hudler...GET.OVER.IT.

Edited June 10, 2011 by LeftWinger

[Konnan511 1,736]

Some you people's trade ideas are completely outlandish.

#1 Philly doesn't want our overpaid garbage.

#2 Smith is NOT going to be in the NHL full time this year (probably not next year either) - He's been below average defensively in the AHL

#3 Detroit isn't Philly's only trade partner in the NHL - They can do better getting CBJ's 8th pick, unless Kenny wants to offer up Helm, Smith, and Tatar + our 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. That 8th pick is worth more than our top 3 picks...

That said, Holland could probably get Pronger for a bit cheaper since he has a bad contract...

#1) Which is why I think offering Mursak, Abdelkader, a 2nd and possibly Emmerton or Marshall could easily land Carter from the Flyers. They dump massive salary and get a slew of young players that are NHL caliber with two forwards that still have a chance of being 2nd/3rd liners and an exciting defensman destined to be a PP QB.

#2) You're under-rating Smith's defense. Plus, his vision and puck moving skills would easily land him in the top 4 of most other teams on top of being their first or 2nd PP QB. And if he's not in Detroit this season, then he will be next season. If Holland doesn't get 2 above average defensemen, then we'll see Smith this year.

#3) That's a massive over payment for a playoff no show. Philly will be looking for young value on top of being able to dump Carter's salary. Many teams, including the Wings, have the right assets to land Carter.

appendix A) Ewww... If Pronger didn't have a disgusting contract, I'd take him in a heart beat.

[dropkickshanahans 463]

Carter sure is enticing to have, but something tells me it would be the wrong move to trade for him. Like someone else said, idk if I like the idea of three long-term contracts (especially with Pasha and Zata already in their 30's), and not focusing on defense the next couple years with Rafalski gone and possibly Lidstrom this season, next season or the season after, whenever that decision comes. Plus Kronwall's contract will be up soon.

It just seems like a move that could backfire on Holland for cap reasons.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

I am not up for trading Abdelkader at all. I would say move Kindl or another prospect instead...

[Buppy 1,720]

Some you people's trade ideas are completely outlandish.

#1 Philly doesn't want our overpaid garbage.

#2 Smith is NOT going to be in the NHL full time this year (probably not next year either) - He's been below average defensively in the AHL

#3 Detroit isn't Philly's only trade partner in the NHL - They can do better getting CBJ's 8th pick, unless Kenny wants to offer up Helm, Smith, and Tatar + our 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. That 8th pick is worth more than our top 3 picks...

When Philadelphia jerks off, they're fantasizing about you as an NHL GM.

No doubt the 8th pick + rights to Voracek would be a great deal for Philly. Frankly, the Jackets would be dumb to make that deal if they weren't getting more than Carter in return. If Philly can get that deal good for them. But that doesn't mean that other suggestions that make both teams better are unreasonable.

Carter sure is enticing to have, but something tells me it would be the wrong move to trade for him. Like someone else said, idk if I like the idea of three long-term contracts (especially with Pasha and Zata already in their 30's), and not focusing on defense the next couple years with Rafalski gone and possibly Lidstrom this season, next season or the season after, whenever that decision comes. Plus Kronwall's contract will be up soon.

It just seems like a move that could backfire on Holland for cap reasons.

It's pretty unlikely we'll see the cap go down. If we do, it would almost certainly be as part of the new CBA which would also bring an across-the-board salary reduction and/or cap-free buyout options; same as the last CBA.

As it stands, we are in great shape to fill holes even if the cap stagnates. We can easily afford to upgrade Flip/Hudler to Carter without risking our future, or having to skimp on defense. You can't win now if you're constantly obsessing over what's going to happen in the future. Carter could feasibly be an elite player for another 8-10 years. He could turn to s***. But there's also risk in every other move you make or don't make.

As we are now with our cap space and the prospects we could see in the next 2-5 years, if the cap keeps going up and all the good players keep signing 5-10+ year deals, there's probably as much risk of us wasting cap because we can't acquire anyone worth paying as there is risk of running over the cap.

[eva unit zero 271]

I know! Screw this Carter stuff...

Trade Flip, Abby, and Kindl for Mike Richards and Braydon Coburn.

Sign Brad Richards.

Leaves about $7m total after signing Lidstrom, Eaves, Draper/Miller, Osgood. Up to $5.5m on one of Pitkanen/Ehrhoff/Bieksa/Wisniewski. Meech/Janik to fill out the defense unless Smith absolutely blows it away at camp.

Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary

Franzen/Zetterberg/Holmstrom

Richards/Richards/Bertuzzi

Mursak/Helm/Eaves

Miller/Emmerton

Kronwall/Stuart

Lidstrom/Ehrhoff

Meech/Coburn

Janik

Howard

Osgood

Whaddya think? Looks great, right?

[eva unit zero 271]

I like how the article mentions that all trade deals the wings have been thinking of have Hudler as the outgoing player (ie, not Filppula) yet your "logical" conclusion is, of course, trade Filppula.

Alright genius. Go trade your one center who isn't average or worse at the dot, and get back a winger who is at best average on draws.

Let's see how that works for your team on faceoffs.

Carter is a defensively skilled center who is very good on faceoffs. He's their only guy who fits that label. Philly won't be trading him for a primarily offensive winger who is maybe average on faceoffs unless that winger is an Ovechkin or Jagr type.

Filppula also fits that label. So it makes sense for a Carter-to-Detroit deal to be structured around him, not Hudler. Holland would probably prefer to deal Hudler, but I don't see Holmgren making that deal without Helm involved; and Filppula is probably gone before Helm is. If it were for Mike Richards, Holmgren probably would be fine with Hudler instead of Flip, but would still ask for an Abdelkader or Helm in the deal to improve his team's faceoff capabilities.

It's called logic. Try it.

[redwingfan19 293]

Some you people's trade ideas are completely outlandish.

#1 Philly doesn't want our overpaid garbage.

#2 Smith is NOT going to be in the NHL full time this year (probably not next year either) - He's been below average defensively in the AHL

#3 Detroit isn't Philly's only trade partner in the NHL - They can do better getting CBJ's 8th pick, unless Kenny wants to offer up Helm, Smith, and Tatar + our 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. That 8th pick is worth more than our top 3 picks...

That said, Holland could probably get Pronger for a bit cheaper since he has a bad contract...

Absolutely false.

"It's just a matter of now with this spot opening up with Rafi, depending on who they try and replace him with, he might get the opportunity now.[/b] It's a big hole to fill. Eventually I think they're looking at a guy like Brendan Smith. He's a power play, penalty kill guy, a 25-minute-a-game guy. So maybe this might wake him up a little bit this summer, he'll work a little harder."

I will take Chelis word over yours.

Doesn't sound like a guy who wont be in the NHL 2 years from now and is weak defensively to me.

Edited June 11, 2011 by redwingfan19

[chrisdetroit 189]

Pronger really? No thanks.

Pronger is having back surgery this summer. No thanks.

[Buppy 1,720]

Alright genius. Go trade your one center who isn't average or worse at the dot, and get back a winger who is at best average on draws.

Let's see how that works for your team on faceoffs.

Carter is a defensively skilled center who is very good on faceoffs. He's their only guy who fits that label. Philly won't be trading him for a primarily offensive winger who is maybe average on faceoffs unless that winger is an Ovechkin or Jagr type.

Filppula also fits that label. So it makes sense for a Carter-to-Detroit deal to be structured around him, not Hudler. Holland would probably prefer to deal Hudler, but I don't see Holmgren making that deal without Helm involved; and Filppula is probably gone before Helm is. If it were for Mike Richards, Holmgren probably would be fine with Hudler instead of Flip, but would still ask for an Abdelkader or Helm in the deal to improve his team's faceoff capabilities.

It's called logic. Try it.

No doubt Philly would rather have Flip. Right now I'd say every team in the league would. But I don't think faceoffs are that big a deal. Carter was only 5th on the team in draws taken. They seem more than happy to let Giroux and Richards take them. The real reason for Flip (or a good-but-cheap option like Helm or Abby) is that without one of them, their line options are more limited. Hudler needs to be on a scoring line and pretty much limited to the wing, the other three are much more versatile.

I'd still pull the trigger on the deal I suggested with Flip in Hudler's place. Maybe downgrade Tatar to Emmerton or HTD or something though.

[Majsheppard 203]

I think many of the trade offers are really underwhelming here.... What about something like this.

Landon Ferraro

Cory Emmerton

Riley Sheahan

Hudler

Draft pick(s)

(which is basically like a good winger and three first rounders) For Jeff Carter and Colburn... That would be adding 8 million in salary and dropping nearly 3 million for about 5 million of additional salary. We would still have upwards of 7mill+ to do with if Lids came back at the same price.

add Wiz and the defense is better and the offense is better. It would cost us forwards, but nothing too our farm can't absorb right now.

Here is what they would have if they paid Bryz the six million.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS

James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m)

Kris Versteeg ($3.083m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Jiri Hudler ($2.875m)

Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Ian Laperriere ($1.166m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m)

Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) / Daniel Carcillo ($1.075m)

Ville Leino ($1.250m)

DEFENSEMEN

Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)

Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)

Sean O'Donnell ($1.300m) / Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS

Ilya Bryzgalov ($6.000m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $62,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,979,761; BONUSES: $1,700,000

CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $420,239

A pretty young team that could win the thing.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Majsheppard

[Majsheppard 203]

I think many of the trade offers are really underwhelming here.... What about something like this.

Landon Ferraro

Cory Emmerton

Riley Sheahan

Hudler

Draft pick(s)

(which is basically like a good winger and three first rounders) For Jeff Carter and Colburn.

Our team would look like this.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS

Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.954m)

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)

Jan Mursak ($0.550m) / Darren Helm ($0.912m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.750m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($1.937m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.787m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m)

Drew Miller ($1.000m)

DEFENSEMEN

Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.000m) / James Wisniewski ($4.000m)

Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / Braydon Coburn ($3.200m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) / Brad Stuart ($3.750m)

Doug Janik ($0.512m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Chris Osgood ($0.800m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $62,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,893,938; BONUSES: $0

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $506,062

That is how it would look on our end.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Majsheppard

[Finnish Wing 110]

People here really think Flyers are going to trade Carter or Coburn? Can't believe it.

Carter was their top goal scorer and they've just locked him up with a long contract. He's not going anywhere. Hartnell is much more likely if you still wanna think there's some issues between the two. Leino and Versteeg will both go before him.

Coburn isn't going anywhere either, because they'll just trade Carle. Carle has a slightly bigger cap hit and provides less so I think the choice is pretty obvious. Of course Coburn may have more trading value, but that's not really the point here, because their only goal is to shed some salary.

I can't believe there's been more than six pages of discussion about mostly Jeff Carter and the Red Wings here. I think Konnan511 should make a new avatar just to make some facts clear and drop people back down to Earth from that imaginary land.