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kipwinger

What's up with Datsyuk

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I'm not sure if you watched many games last season or not, but we were injured. A lot. To the point that many of our regular goal scorers were sidelined for huge chunks of the season. Which would go a long way to explaining why Cleary, someone who you say is merely a "depth player", was our #2 scorer. When that many people above you on the totem pole get knocked off, you find yourself suddenly a lot closer to the top than you otherwise expected.

We should rely on everyone to be able to score a goal or two, for exactly the reason I outlined above. What happens if our key producers get injured again this year? If we can't rely on the Dan Clearys of the team to score goals, we're f***ed.

BTW, it is never a problem when any player on your team scores 30 goals in a season.

I definitely understand what the situation was last year and how the goals were distributed as a result. But my observation is look at Dan Cleary, watch the way he plays. He cannot create offense for himself because he has limited agility and his speed has been diminished compared to years past and playing with Pav has netted him all but 2 flukish goals this year. That is just what he is now. I don't think he is a player that can be leaned on when we need a goal (see last years playoffs). For the most part we have only two such players. Three if Franzen is on a roll. Guys with good shots like Filppula, Bert, and Hudler rarely shoot, so you can't lean too heavily on them either.

Look around the league, or even in our own division. Chicago goes at least 4 deep in guys who can score at any time. In addition, they have guys like Bolland and Frolik.

San Jose goes at least 6 deep in guys who can score consistently.

Vancouver goes at least 3 deep with two of them being in the top 5 players in the game.

IMO, we do not have enough consistent firepower. We don't have enough guys who shoot the puck every time its on their stick. Cleary is a great player to have, but his time as a top two liner is past i think.

And like you said, even with injuries considered, it is disheartening that we haven't had a 30 goal scorer in 3 seasons....

Edited by unsaddleddonald

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IMO, we do not have enough consistent firepower. We don't have enough guys who shoot the puck every time its on their stick. Cleary is a great player to have, but his time as a top two liner is past i think.

I agree, and disagree with this statement. Cleary should not be counted on to be the firepower on a top line, but in no way does that mean he shouldn't be a top 6 forward. If we were basing it on pure talent, Holmstrom should have never sniffed the top 9. The difference is Homer found a way to build chemistry with line mates an be effective in his role, while Cleary seems to have struggled in that role this season.

One issue early on is the entire line of Z-Dats-Cleary was struggling. All of them looked out of sync and off-base to me. The idea of line with chemistry is there, it just wasn't clicking. I feel like Datsyuk is being kind if hung out to dry right now. Not only does it seem like he still has nagging wrist injuries (assuming) but he's also got Homer and Cleary on his wings. I think he needs a little more than that to work with.

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Aaron Downey was one of the hardest working, non lazy players i have seen on this team in a while, but put him with Datsyuk and you'll see his numbers drop off as well. Datsyuk has twoAaron Downeys on his line right now. They aren't lazy, they just aren't first line players and that's taking its toll on Pasha.

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Some good points have already been stated:

1. Pavel has been a slow starter as has much of the team for the last few seasons. Even with Hossa the chemistry wasn't instant.

2. Not only did he lose a friend in Salei but also Boogaard. I hope his memory of them gives him that added motivation in the playoffs like Vladdy in '98.

3. My input and opinion has been that the "Best Russian" vote and all the highlights from last postseason got him thinking highlight reel plays all the time.

In the third against Colorado he seemed to simplify and actually started shooting and, Whammy! Cleary gets the goal.

He just needs to stop trying to deke everyone in the building and just make the smart play.

Finally, Pavel has never been a lightning fast skater so he may not really be slower than you remember.

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Aaron Downey was one of the hardest working, non lazy players i have seen on this team in a while, but put him with Datsyuk and you'll see his numbers drop off as well. Datsyuk has two Aaron Downeys on his line right now. They aren't lazy, they just aren't first line players and that's taking its toll on Pasha.

I freaking wish.

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Some good points have already been stated:

1. Pavel has been a slow starter as has much of the team for the last few seasons. Even with Hossa the chemistry wasn't instant.

2. Not only did he lose a friend in Salei but also Boogaard. I hope his memory of them gives him that added motivation in the playoffs like Vladdy in '98.

3. My input and opinion has been that the "Best Russian" vote and all the highlights from last postseason got him thinking highlight reel plays all the time.

In the third against Colorado he seemed to simplify and actually started shooting and, Whammy! Cleary gets the goal.

He just needs to stop trying to deke everyone in the building and just make the smart play.

Finally, Pavel has never been a lightning fast skater so he may not really be slower than you remember.

In terms of #3, there is no way that should have any impact on a vetern player like Datsyuk.

I really don't like several arguments on here discussing the fact that his linemates suck. If we are talking about a player being one of the best, it shouldn't matter who he plays with, the great players produce regardless.

The only excuse I'll make is that's it's way too early to worry about this, I'm sure things will even out over the year. Sure, he's only on pace for 63pts right now, but if he strings together a couple multi-point games, he back on ppg pace. He's not going to be a 100pt player, anyone who thought that were overestimating.

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This team's performance doesn't matter to him, the only thing he cares about is how many fights this team gets into.

Which is beginning to get annoying. There's more to hockey than fights, and the Red Wings are not going to turn into the Broad Street Bullies from the 1970s. We haven't been that kind of team in decades, and it's time to just suck it up and accept it.

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Which is beginning to get annoying. There's more to hockey than fights, and the Red Wings are not going to turn into the Broad Street Bullies from the 1970s. We haven't been that kind of team in decades, and it's time to just suck it up and accept it.

True. I personally wouldn't trade our success for fights, nor would I give up a hot scorer for a fighter, but it's fun to dream about guys like Mac and Probie.

One tough guy can fill a 4th line position and not be a detriment to the team.

Most of what we enforcer slappies dream of is just that- a dream. The rules have changed so that we can't have it any more anyway. But it's fun to reminisce, and to dream.

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I definitely understand what the situation was last year and how the goals were distributed as a result. But my observation is look at Dan Cleary, watch the way he plays. He cannot create offense for himself because he has limited agility and his speed has been diminished compared to years past and playing with Pav has netted him all but 2 flukish goals this year. That is just what he is now. I don't think he is a player that can be leaned on when we need a goal (see last years playoffs). For the most part we have only two such players. Three if Franzen is on a roll. Guys with good shots like Filppula, Bert, and Hudler rarely shoot, so you can't lean too heavily on them either.

Look around the league, or even in our own division. Chicago goes at least 4 deep in guys who can score at any time. In addition, they have guys like Bolland and Frolik.

San Jose goes at least 6 deep in guys who can score consistently.

Vancouver goes at least 3 deep with two of them being in the top 5 players in the game.

IMO, we do not have enough consistent firepower. We don't have enough guys who shoot the puck every time its on their stick. Cleary is a great player to have, but his time as a top two liner is past i think.

And like you said, even with injuries considered, it is disheartening that we haven't had a 30 goal scorer in 3 seasons....

Wow. So many things I would like to respond to. The grass IS always greener on the other side, isn't it?

If San Jose and Chicago are such high powered offensive teams, why didn't they outscore this 'disheartening' Detroit Red Wings team that hasn't had a 30 goal scorer is SO long? And Vancouver had a whopping ONE more goal than Detroit last year with their '2 out of the top five players in the game' <--- (That was quite a bit of a stretch to say imo). By the way, why are those teams so deep in high level scoring talent? Maybe because those teams had some garbage years and therefore had some really high draft picks to get some of those guys. Where were the Wings during those garbage years for those teams? Oh that's right - they had teams of a caliber to compete for the Cup those years and so they didn't get really high draft picks. Well, shame on them for not sucking for a few years and then drafting the Sedins and Jonathan Toews for us.

And why in the world are Dave Bolland and Michael Frolik being brought up in this discussion when it seems to be bash Dan Cleary day? I mean, correct me if I am wrong please, but I kind of put Dan Cleary at the very LEAST on par with guys like Bolland and Frolik. Why do they get mentioned as additional scoring when Cleary gets run through the mud? And, 'three if Franzen is on a roll'... please. Do you think Franzen is the only streaky scorer in the league? I would argue his scoring ability is comparable to that of Patrick Sharp, who gets included in the "4 deep" of Chicago... or Joe Pavelski or Martin Havlat at this point in his career, as they seemingly get included int he "6 deep" of San Jose.

Also - more of a side note really on something I found humorous in your post....We had a guy that shot the puck a lot a couple of years ago. His name was Mikael Samuelsson, and 98% of LGW hated him with a passion because he shot the puck all the time. I actually thought it was kind of refreshing to have him on the team because, as is being discussed, there are several players who many feel do not shoot the puck nearly enough. But really, if they did that and still weren't scoring and the Wings weren't winning, everyone would complain about them exactly like they did about Samuelsson. Btw, totally not saying that Samulesson is the answer for this team or anything, although I did like the guy.... just found some humour there.

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Not really.

Yeah this post you made right here showed me that you're not like most enforcer fans:

I am a big fan of fighting as you all know.

However, these North American goons that went to Vityaz are a ******* disgrace to their professions and I've had enough of their s***. An enforcer's job is to protect his teammates and go after players that need to be put in their place. NOT to pick on guys for no reason, especially players who are not fighters and can't defend themselves. It's just bully tactics which have no purpose to them.

This is the worst kind of spotpicking BS I've ever seen and it's been going on for years now. Have these players forgotten what the code is? Gratton, Verot, Sugden, that retard Mirasty, Yablonski, Brennan, etc. These guys are all on my permanent hate list for their behavior the last couple of seasons. Are they too dickless to play in North America anymore, so they have to go to Russia to fight skilled players?

And how about their coach Andrei Nazarov. The big Russian ***** who always got his ass kicked in the NHL, and now he's overcompensating for it by instructing his goons to pick on non-fighters for no reason. What an *******.

The weird thing about Vityaz is their GM, none other than Alexei Zhamnov. He was a skilled player his whole career, so I'm surprised he's allowing this garbage.

Sorry for the language.

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True. I personally wouldn't trade our success for fights, nor would I give up a hot scorer for a fighter, but it's fun to dream about guys like Mac and Probie.

One tough guy can fill a 4th line position and not be a detriment to the team.

Most of what we enforcer slappies dream of is just that- a dream. The rules have changed so that we can't have it any more anyway. But it's fun to reminisce, and to dream.

Wait... what do you mean? We have Drew Miller don't we? He loves to take a face wash :P

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I feel like Pav took a step forward last night in terms of getting back to the level of impact he wants to have on an every game basis. Played well defensively and had some close calls offensively. It's as if he's right there ready to breakout like no other.

As long as Datsyuk is paired with Holmstrom 5 on 5, he will not have a breakout unless he gets power play points. Holmstrom is an anchor 5 on 5. If the coach gets another guy on his line that can open up space for Pavs, then he will excel. Right now, he's hamstrung by a 36 year old, non-threat, slow winger. It's the next thing up from playing on the pk out there for Datsyuk.

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I feel like Pav took a step forward last night in terms of getting back to the level of impact he wants to have on an every game basis. Played well defensively and had some close calls offensively. It's as if he's right there ready to breakout like no other.

I don't know... He still had a few moves that for someone like him should have been simple, but he failed to complete or lost the puck. I think he tweaked his wrist during the summer and is trying to just play through it. The way he looks out there, its like there is something physical holding him back, not mental.

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Datsyuk has no wingers to play with.

Cleary has very poor goalscoring ability and Homer is good only on PP.

We could really use better wingers.

Right now, I would say that's fairly obvious. As a general statement though, I disagree. Cleary is streaky like Franzen, but he was still second on the team in goals last year. I have said in other threads I would prefer Filppula on Datsyuk's wing -- at least until Cleary gets healthy -- because I do think that is affecting Cleary quite a bit so far.

Edited by GoWings1905

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Right now, I would say that's fairly obvious. As a general statement though, I disagree. Cleary is streaky like Franzen, but he was still second on the team in goals last year. I have said in other threads I would prefer Filppula on Datsyuk's wing -- at least until Cleary gets healthy -- because I do think that is affecting Cleary quite a bit so far.

Cleary has 141 goals in 760 NHL games (100 goals in 431 games as a Red Wing), which makes him a poor goalscorer. He is not a good top6 player. Datsyuk deserves to play with better wingers. Simple as that.

Edited by Reds4Life

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It seems like Dats is being used in a more defensive role right now, playing with Cleary and Holmstrom. Although it is a scoring line, those wingers are not going to chip in much 5 on 5. Datsyuk is just relying on his strong 2-way play to make positive contributions to the team, even though he will not light it up with a 100 point season on that line.

It seems like Babs is using the Fil-Z-Franzen line as the top scoring threat. Datsyuk certainly can shut down any 2nd line in the league and still contribute a good amount of points.

It's still ok for the team to win, but I'm a little upset I took Datsyuk in the 2nd or 3rd round in fantasy, when he is not being used in an offensive role. I mean, look at that power play line of CLeary - Datsyuk - Holmstrom! It is so weak. Thank God for Lidstrom.

It seems like Dats is being used in a more defensive role right now, playing with Cleary and Holmstrom. Although it is a scoring line, those wingers are not going to chip in much 5 on 5. Datsyuk is just relying on his strong 2-way play to make positive contributions to the team, even though he will not light it up with a 100 point season on that line.

It seems like Babs is using the Fil-Z-Franzen line as the top scoring threat. Datsyuk certainly can shut down any 2nd line in the league and still contribute a good amount of points.

It's still ok for the team to win, but I'm a little upset I took Datsyuk in the 2nd or 3rd round in fantasy, when he is not being used in an offensive role. I mean, look at that power play line of CLeary - Datsyuk - Holmstrom! It is so weak. Thank God for Lidstrom.

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