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Richdg

The new guys thoughts.....

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Some of us remember who when Bowman was hired and he tried to run Yzerman out of town. It does happen. In fact it is rare to stay in one place your whole career. Go through just the RW history. Howe, Abel, delveccio, sawchuck, Lindsey, were all traded away at one point or another. Glad you brought up Shanahan. we traded for him. The let him walk as a FA. Got nothing back for him. He stayed 2 years to long.

Oh Really? And when was that, again??? When I read that, it made me disregard everything else that you had said. :thumbdown:

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Nash would be great, but I am not sure they want to invest all that cash in Parise/Nash and Suter. If somehow Holland acquires Nash, then you can forget one of Suter or Parise. Then again, nobody really knows what is going on in Holland's head. He could be looking at completely different UFA's...

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Nash would be great, but I am not sure they want to invest all that cash in Parise/Nash and Suter. If somehow Holland acquires Nash, then you can forget one of Suter or Parise. Then again, nobody really knows what is going on in Holland's head. He could be looking at completely different UFA's...

Getting Nash would be great, but would come at a high cost. Probably would see our 2013 1st rounder gone along with Flip or Franzen and someone like Jarnkrok or Tatar and a good D prospect. Not worth selling the farm. Parise can be had for a dollar amount with nothing else going out the other way, same with Suter. Nash also has a pre-detemined salary of what, 8+ mil i think?? Either way, i'd rather keep the idea of going after Parise, Suter and Prust. It makes the most sense and would make the Wings instant favourite. And before anyone brings up an argument that Hossa coming over made the wings instant cup repeaters, he got 40 goals and the boys lost game 7 of the SCF...

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The other part of this is of course when do our guys become FA's? Holmstrom, Hudler, Stuart and nicky this year, only 1 will return, maybe. Next year datsyk, Howard, Cleary, and Filppula are UFA's. Howard will double his salary or more. do we spend the big money on a then 35 year old datsyk? Cleary will be gone and Filppula could go either way. Point is as has been the case, change is coming not matter if we like it or not. the question is, how do we manage the change and remain a Cup contender? Do we resign datsyk to another 4 or 5 year deal and commit 30 million more to him, or move him now while he has value? same with Filppula?

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This is always the debate that bring teams down. if you go look at all of the major professional sports, find the "teams of the decade" and then go see how they do the following decade. When do you cut bait with the expensive veteran players that made you great? Hang on to long and you become a bottom dweller. Move to fast and the fan base can revolt. But that only lasts untill you win a championship, then they forget all about it.

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The other part of this is of course when do our guys become FA's? Holmstrom, Hudler, Stuart and nicky this year, only 1 will return, maybe. Next year datsyk, Howard, Cleary, and Filppula are UFA's. Howard will double his salary or more. do we spend the big money on a then 35 year old datsyk? Cleary will be gone and Filppula could go either way. Point is as has been the case, change is coming not matter if we like it or not. the question is, how do we manage the change and remain a Cup contender? Do we resign datsyk to another 4 or 5 year deal and commit 30 million more to him, or move him now while he has value? same with Filppula?

Datsyuk isn't a FA next year. He's signed through 2013-2014. Flip could be moved if the right deal comes along but a Datsyuk trade is completely out of the question.

This is always the debate that bring teams down. if you go look at all of the major professional sports, find the "teams of the decade" and then go see how they do the following decade. When do you cut bait with the expensive veteran players that made you great? Hang on to long and you become a bottom dweller. Move to fast and the fan base can revolt. But that only lasts untill you win a championship, then they forget all about it.

Moving your stars (aging or otherwise) for picks and prospects causes you to become a bottom dweller, letting good players play until they retire hasn't hurt the Wings in 20+ years.

I believe the saying is "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

What championship teams have traded away the players that made them great, and then improved without a few years of mediocrity in between?

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I disagree about trades being out of the question-- it all depends on how Holland does on July 1st. If he strikes out we're almost guaranteed he will look very hard for trade possibilities.

I have zero interest in Penner unless he's cheap. He comes with huge questions about his commitment on and off the ice (especially in terms of whether he is NHL-fit).

Both would be downgrades.

agreed on both posts. Penner is lazy and we already have Franzen that is filling the floater role quite well. And Ryan Smyth is old, decrepid and way past his prime...I seem to remember a lot of guys complaining about that problem with the current Wings team, so why add to it?

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Datsyuk isn't a FA next year. He's signed through 2013-2014. Flip could be moved if the right deal comes along but a Datsyuk trade is completely out of the question.

Moving your stars (aging or otherwise) for picks and prospects causes you to become a bottom dweller, letting good players play until they retire hasn't hurt the Wings in 20+ years.

I believe the saying is "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

What championship teams have traded away the players that made them great, and then improved without a few years of mediocrity in between?

Sorry, off 1 year. But that makes it worse. he will then be 36 and still cost a lot. I am not nor have I ever said trade from prospects and draft picks. I said trade for guys in the NHL that are starting to prove themselves. guys just entering their prime that are producing. Big difference.

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you still didn't answer my question.

Which championship teams in any sport have traded away the players that made them great, and improved without any years of mediocrity in between?

Who knows what Datsyuk will want salary wise in 2 years, and who knows what the roster will look like then. The Wings are still very much competitive and Datsyuk is the best player on their team, just because he's aging isn't a reason to trade him.

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you still didn't answer my question.

Which championship teams in any sport have traded away the players that made them great, and improved without any years of mediocrity in between?

Who knows what Datsyuk will want salary wise in 2 years, and who knows what the roster will look like then. The Wings are still very much competitive and Datsyuk is the best player on their team, just because he's aging isn't a reason to trade him.

Evcery team rebuilds. The question is which is faster? Either way you do drop off. But do you wait untill everyone has retired-and get NOTHING for them? Or move them and get something back that can be part of your next upswing. We had a 15 year run that was awesome! 95-2010 there was no one better. Not even close. But now it is time to get the pieces for the next great run.

No we are very very competive. we just got beat in the 1st round. We didn't win our division. As for datsyk, is he is healthy he is going to make more than he does now. 36 year olds are guys you fill in holes with, not build around. he is already slowing down over the past five years. Injuries are becoming more common. If we could move him, yes I would. But like I said, not for prospects. I look for guys in the league just comming into their prime.

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Evcery team rebuilds. The question is which is faster? Either way you do drop off. But do you wait untill everyone has retired-and get NOTHING for them? Or move them and get something back that can be part of your next upswing. We had a 15 year run that was awesome! 95-2010 there was no one better. Not even close. But now it is time to get the pieces for the next great run.

No we are very very competive. we just got beat in the 1st round. We didn't win our division. As for datsyk, is he is healthy he is going to make more than he does now. 36 year olds are guys you fill in holes with, not build around. he is already slowing down over the past five years. Injuries are becoming more common. If we could move him, yes I would. But like I said, not for prospects. I look for guys in the league just comming into their prime.

So 8th overall isn't competitive? 102 pts sucks?

Should Chicago, San Jose, Vancouver and Pittsburgh start shipping out their stars too? they lost in the 1st round too.

You rebuild when your team can no longer compete, the Wings are a free agent signing and/or a few better playoff match-ups from being championship team again.

Datsyuk isn't some run of the mill 33 year old, he's among the best players in the NHL. The closest player in calibre to him that I can remember getting traded was Peter Forsberg (and he wasn't traded by the team he starred with). He returned Scotty Upshall and Ryan Parent, neither of which are still playing with Philadelphia.

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Evcery team rebuilds. The question is which is faster? Either way you do drop off. But do you wait untill everyone has retired-and get NOTHING for them? Or move them and get something back that can be part of your next upswing. We had a 15 year run that was awesome! 95-2010 there was no one better. Not even close. But now it is time to get the pieces for the next great run.

No we are very very competive. we just got beat in the 1st round. We didn't win our division. As for datsyk, is he is healthy he is going to make more than he does now. 36 year olds are guys you fill in holes with, not build around. he is already slowing down over the past five years. Injuries are becoming more common. If we could move him, yes I would. But like I said, not for prospects. I look for guys in the league just comming into their prime.

Dude your either living in fantasy land or NHL12 lol....The Wings are a dignified, respectable, classy organization. And we got that way by letting our players retire as wings. We dont get nothing for that either...players like nick give us 20+ years of dedicated loyal service. What more do you want man!?!?!? and so will players like datsyuk and zetterberg and so on. They are not common whores that get traded away as soon as they turn 35.... They are Wings. They were born Wings and they will die Wings....Even at their ripe old ages they play a 360 degree game that most "proving themselves up and coming players" will never ever achieve or even dream of. We are one of the most respected and successful organizations in all of sports because we DONT do what you are talking about. Theres a reason why in the players poll the majority of players voted that the organization theyd most like to play for is Detroit...we turn boys into legends...put rings on their fingers...then retire them and give em a job behind the scenes...its been workin since 97 and we aint changin it now....remeber 2001, 2003, and 2006? OH NOOOO BLOW UP THE TEAM!!!!! WELL NEVER WIN AGAIN WITH THESE SHMUCKS!!!! (championship in 2002 and 2008).......if ur really so worried about our Vets (not sure ive ever been worried about veteran wings) and our future, then see: Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Mrazek, Andersson, Pulkkinen, Ouellet, Sproul, Tvrdon, Ferraro, Quine, Callahan, Marchenko.....need i say more? our farm is stacked and were almost ready to harvest again....no need to aquire the up and coming leinos and semins of the world. Hockey is different then NHL12 friend.

at this point id like to reiterate a previous posters statement....soooooo glad kenny is running this team

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Dude your either living in fantasy land or NHL12 lol....The Wings are a dignified, respectable, classy organization. And we got that way by letting our players retire as wings. We dont get nothing for that either...players like nick give us 20+ years of dedicated loyal service. What more do you want man!?!?!? and so will players like datsyuk and zetterberg and so on. They are not common whores that get traded away as soon as they turn 35.... They are Wings. They were born Wings and they will die Wings....Even at their ripe old ages they play a 360 degree game that most "proving themselves up and coming players" will never ever achieve or even dream of. We are one of the most respected and successful organizations in all of sports because we DONT do what you are talking about. Theres a reason why in the players poll the majority of players voted that the organization theyd most like to play for is Detroit...we turn boys into legends...put rings on their fingers...then retire them and give em a job behind the scenes...its been workin since 97 and we aint changin it now....remeber 2001, 2003, and 2006? OH NOOOO BLOW UP THE TEAM!!!!! WELL NEVER WIN AGAIN WITH THESE SHMUCKS!!!! (championship in 2002 and 2008).......if ur really so worried about our Vets (not sure ive ever been worried about veteran wings) and our future, then see: Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Mrazek, Andersson, Pulkkinen, Ouellet, Sproul, Tvrdon, Ferraro, Quine, Callahan, Marchenko.....need i say more? our farm is stacked and were almost ready to harvest again....no need to aquire the up and coming leinos and semins of the world. Hockey is different then NHL12 friend.

at this point id like to reiterate a previous posters statement....soooooo glad kenny is running this team

Now who is talking about prospects? You do realize that for everyone that makes it, there are 20+ that don't right? Most of those guys are 3+ years from even be considered. heck half of them have yet to play a professional game. Yes we drft and develop well. But what does that mean? We have what, 15 guys on our roster that we drafted? In a span of 20+ years. Think about that. That is less than 1 pick per draft ever turns out. Ok we traded a couple. But not that many. Maybe dat and Z play their whole career here. I have no issue with it if 1. they produce and 2. their pay matches their production. But in both cases their ends are far closer than you want to realize. They are also dropping faster than you seem willing to accept. Fact is the RW are the second oldest team in the NHL-based on the 2011/12 season. Heck babcock said it best after the playoffs "we seem to be headin in the wrong direction". His words-paraphrased, not mine.

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Going to add one more though to this thread. Most teams, us included carry 14 forwards. No team what to be all small or all big. doesn't work. Philly proved that under Clark and the ducks are showing that again. You need a good mix. 7 and 7 is about perfect. if you look at our group of forwards, who are big and who are small, and where does the real problem lie? By big I typically talk about guys over 6ft and over 200 pounds. Our small forwards are: Dat, Z, Filppula, Helm, Emmerton, Mursak, and Nyquist. That group is pretty solid. Our big forwards are : Burt, Franzen, Cleary, Abdelkater, Miller (kinda) and maybe Sheahan(spelling). That is not an awe inspiring group. Only 6-so 1 short to begin with, and the group is 3 old broken down guys and 3 checkers. Now which group is our problem? Which group do we need to really be focusing on? The worst part is, we are tied to those 3. maybe franzen has trade value, but that is it. Burt has a no trade clause IIRC and cleary is toast.

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Now who is talking about prospects? You do realize that for everyone that makes it, there are 20+ that don't right? Most of those guys are 3+ years from even be considered. heck half of them have yet to play a professional game. Yes we drft and develop well. But what does that mean? We have what, 15 guys on our roster that we drafted? In a span of 20+ years. Think about that. That is less than 1 pick per draft ever turns out. Ok we traded a couple. But not that many. Maybe dat and Z play their whole career here. I have no issue with it if 1. they produce and 2. their pay matches their production. But in both cases their ends are far closer than you want to realize. They are also dropping faster than you seem willing to accept. Fact is the RW are the second oldest team in the NHL-based on the 2011/12 season. Heck babcock said it best after the playoffs "we seem to be headin in the wrong direction". His words-paraphrased, not mine.

Smith and Nyquist pretty much already made the team. Sheahan and Andersson are nearly there. Jarnkrok, Tatar, and Jurco are expected to be part of the team in the next few years. And Ouellet and Marchenko are being called huge steals like Datsyuk was. Thats about 9 guys who you can put your money on to make it in the next 1 to 4 seasons. Then you have our other 20+ prospects...and lets says worst comes to worst and only 3 of them make it. Now you have about 10 or 11 guys makin it. But lets also not forget that over the next 4 seasons, while our current prospects are fighting for roster spots, we will also draft another 30 to 36 prospects. Lets say only 3 of those guys make it in that 4 year time span. Now you have around 14 guys makin it in the next 4 seasons.....but lets assume everything goes terribly wrong cause we draft horribly (which we dont) and my figure of 14 is cut in half....that means 7 guys. thats still 1 man more than an entire defensive squad, and 1 man more than half a forward squad. Still not satisfied? Lets also not forget those 1st round picks we dont need....we can trade those away for whatever young players on other teams you envy so much and use them to fill holes. And dont forget free agency! The Hossa's (Parise) and Rafalski's (Suter) of the world need somewhere to go. And FA's love us because we DONT trade away guys like Nick, PAV, or Z, just because they are EXPIERENCED. And even if we don't get Parise or Suter we'd probablly get some more Ian White kind of guys and turn them into a top notch players like we always do..............or then again we could just blow the team up and trade away the 2 best 2-way forwards in the league to get someone who doesnt play nearly as good defense and costs probablly a million or two more than Pav and Z do. And in the process ruin our reputation as a franchise that sticks by our guys, and less FA's will want to play here.

Bottom line is if you think anyone on this team is too old (besides Homer) and that being old is a problem, your crazy (see: Nick Lidstrom, Brendan Shanahan, Chris Chelios, Domink Hasek, ect.). Veterans provide a world of leadership to the team, help develop our up and coming prospects, and are just plain smarter and more experienced than other players out there. Our family style has created a culture of winning. Panicking and blowing up the team is not only short-sighted but completely moronic and against everything our franchise has worked to cultivate. Remember 2006? We went out in the first round just like this year and people panicked and said blow the team up. Luckily Hollands cooler head prevailed and he didn't do something stupid....2 years later we won the cup. This is not a 1 and done team like Chicago....people like you are only thinking about the the present while Holland is 5 steps ahead of you. Hes got plans for 2016 already I'm sure. He's like Lidstrom, he makes very few mistakes....and theres a reason he sticks by our guys. Love my wings.

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The problem lies 2-3 years from now when we're gonna be REALLY old and still not have any great prospects.

8QmIp.gif

Holy s***-- this guy can see into the future to reveal the results of the next 2-3 drafts.

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8QmIp.gif

Holy s***-- this guy can see into the future to reveal the results of the next 2-3 drafts.

Didn't you hear? The Minnesota Wild have an organization chock full of blue chip prospects while the Detroit Red Wings have the worst. Cougar did his homework so it must be true! It's a fact!

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Smith and Nyquist pretty much already made the team. Sheahan and Andersson are nearly there. Jarnkrok, Tatar, and Jurco are expected to be part of the team in the next few years. And Ouellet and Marchenko are being called huge steals like Datsyuk was. Thats about 9 guys who you can put your money on to make it in the next 1 to 4 seasons. Then you have our other 20+ prospects...and lets says worst comes to worst and only 3 of them make it. Now you have about 10 or 11 guys makin it. But lets also not forget that over the next 4 seasons, while our current prospects are fighting for roster spots, we will also draft another 30 to 36 prospects. Lets say only 3 of those guys make it in that 4 year time span. Now you have around 14 guys makin it in the next 4 seasons.....but lets assume everything goes terribly wrong cause we draft horribly (which we dont) and my figure of 14 is cut in half....that means 7 guys. thats still 1 man more than an entire defensive squad, and 1 man more than half a forward squad. Still not satisfied? Lets also not forget those 1st round picks we dont need....we can trade those away for whatever young players on other teams you envy so much and use them to fill holes. And dont forget free agency! The Hossa's (Parise) and Rafalski's (Suter) of the world need somewhere to go. And FA's love us because we DONT trade away guys like Nick, PAV, or Z, just because they are EXPIERENCED. And even if we don't get Parise or Suter we'd probablly get some more Ian White kind of guys and turn them into a top notch players like we always do..............or then again we could just blow the team up and trade away the 2 best 2-way forwards in the league to get someone who doesnt play nearly as good defense and costs probablly a million or two more than Pav and Z do. And in the process ruin our reputation as a franchise that sticks by our guys, and less FA's will want to play here.

Bottom line is if you think anyone on this team is too old (besides Homer) and that being old is a problem, your crazy (see: Nick Lidstrom, Brendan Shanahan, Chris Chelios, Domink Hasek, ect.). Veterans provide a world of leadership to the team, help develop our up and coming prospects, and are just plain smarter and more experienced than other players out there. Our family style has created a culture of winning. Panicking and blowing up the team is not only short-sighted but completely moronic and against everything our franchise has worked to cultivate. Remember 2006? We went out in the first round just like this year and people panicked and said blow the team up. Luckily Hollands cooler head prevailed and he didn't do something stupid....2 years later we won the cup. This is not a 1 and done team like Chicago....people like you are only thinking about the the present while Holland is 5 steps ahead of you. Hes got plans for 2016 already I'm sure. He's like Lidstrom, he makes very few mistakes....and theres a reason he sticks by our guys. Love my wings.

I will take that bet. Of all the young guys ypu have mentioned, fwer than 2 will ever turn out to be stars.

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I will take that bet. Of all the young guys ypu have mentioned, fwer than 2 will ever turn out to be stars.

Way to go out on a limb there.

He said they'd make it not become Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

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Way to go out on a limb there.

He said they'd make it not become Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

Think about what you just said. make it but not stars. We are losing stars. If we are not going to have stars to replace them with............ But he also made a strong indication that 2 of the guys are supposed to be steals on the scale of Datsyk. So yes he did talk about guys becoming stars.

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Ok back to this off season and some names. What happens if everyone favorites are gone? if they don't come here? Parise and Suter have signed some place else? There are other names out there that can and will help. We still need to add grit up front. I have mentioned Jones before. if we are going for one last hurrah, Doan could make sense. But there are a few others. if we want a real gritty forward that also scores, look at P A Parenteu from the Isles. Think Kirk maltby but with better offense. If true toughness is the goal/need a guy like McLeod of Col. is about as tough as they get.

On the blue line there are several others besides Suter. I mentioned Carle before. 2 others to look at are Wideman of the caps-would add a 2nd RH shot to our blueline, and garrison of the Panthers. IIRC he lead all D with goals scored. very good shooter and has good size/mobility.

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Think about what you just said. make it but not stars. We are losing stars. If we are not going to have stars to replace them with............ But he also made a strong indication that 2 of the guys are supposed to be steals on the scale of Datsyk. So yes he did talk about guys becoming stars.

He said there were 9 guys you could put your money on to "make it" in the next 1 to 4 years. You said you'd take that bet and changed it to "fewer than 2" of those 9 guys would be stars. I highly doubt he expected all 9 prospects to turn into NHL stars.

Lidstrom is the only star that needs to be replaced, in 1 to 4 years Datsyuk and Zetterberg will likely still be playing . They may not be as big of stars then but not every team has that kind of talent anyways. If 9 of our current prospects are on our roster and 1 turns into a star player we will be in even better shape than we are right now.

As far as FA's after Suter and Parise, I like the idea of a RH defenceman if Lidstrom doesn't come back, otherwise I'm not sure there is a roster spot for one. Upfront I think we need a goal scorer who can play with Datsyuk, I don't care if he's gritty, as long as he can score. We could use a little bit of grit on the 4th line but again roster space may be an issue if Hudler is re-signed. Lastly we need a back-up goalie better than Conklin, especially with MacDonald having back issues.

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He said there were 9 guys you could put your money on to "make it" in the next 1 to 4 years. You said you'd take that bet and changed it to "fewer than 2" of those 9 guys would be stars. I highly doubt he expected all 9 prospects to turn into NHL stars.

Lidstrom is the only star that needs to be replaced, in 1 to 4 years Datsyuk and Zetterberg will likely still be playing . They may not be as big of stars then but not every team has that kind of talent anyways. If 9 of our current prospects are on our roster and 1 turns into a star player we will be in even better shape than we are right now.

As far as FA's after Suter and Parise, I like the idea of a RH defenceman if Lidstrom doesn't come back, otherwise I'm not sure there is a roster spot for one. Upfront I think we need a goal scorer who can play with Datsyuk, I don't care if he's gritty, as long as he can score. We could use a little bit of grit on the 4th line but again roster space may be an issue if Hudler is re-signed. Lastly we need a back-up goalie better than Conklin, especially with MacDonald having back issues.

Trying to predict what will happen with datsyk in 2 or 3 years is tough to do. Other than the fact he will be 36 and a UFA. if his numbers continue to slide....who knows. Adding a scorer doesn't solve our problems. We have scorers. But in the playoffs, without space to work, they didn't score. It wasn't like we were unhealthy. This year was the first year in several that we entered the playoffs healthy-in a very general sense. But no one scored. Also our 3rd/4th lines are about set. we have a bunch of guys that can and will play there. It isour top2 lines where the issues lay.

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He said there were 9 guys you could put your money on to "make it" in the next 1 to 4 years. You said you'd take that bet and changed it to "fewer than 2" of those 9 guys would be stars. I highly doubt he expected all 9 prospects to turn into NHL stars.

Lidstrom is the only star that needs to be replaced, in 1 to 4 years Datsyuk and Zetterberg will likely still be playing . They may not be as big of stars then but not every team has that kind of talent anyways. If 9 of our current prospects are on our roster and 1 turns into a star player we will be in even better shape than we are right now.

As far as FA's after Suter and Parise, I like the idea of a RH defenceman if Lidstrom doesn't come back, otherwise I'm not sure there is a roster spot for one. Upfront I think we need a goal scorer who can play with Datsyuk, I don't care if he's gritty, as long as he can score. We could use a little bit of grit on the 4th line but again roster space may be an issue if Hudler is re-signed. Lastly we need a back-up goalie better than Conklin, especially with MacDonald having back issues.

Babcock did strive to say that he was looking to pick up a RH defensemen when they were looking into another D. They would like the RH for the breakouts and transition, which is one of our hold ups, the transition through the neutral zone.

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Babcock did strive to say that he was looking to pick up a RH defensemen when they were looking into another D. They would like the RH for the breakouts and transition, which is one of our hold ups, the transition through the neutral zone.

Yes. that is why i mentioned Wideman. he is 29 and a UFA. If we are only taking 1 FA Dman, he is actually a better fit for us. Having 2 RH shooters on the blueline gives us 2 very nice pairs on the PP. If Nicky hangs them up, then sign another one out of the Suter, Carle, and garrison group. Now you would have the pairs of: Kronwall and white (LH and RH), Wideman and Nicky/Suter/Carle/Garrison (Rh and LH), Smith or Quincy and Erickson (all LH) and Kindl as the 7th. Or some version of this. if Nicky retires, then all of the D are 31 and under in age. That would be a group we could keep together for the next 4-6 years. Solves the blueline long term.

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