Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The new guys thoughts.....


  • Please log in to reply
82 replies to this topic

#1 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 06 May 2012 - 02:58 PM

First of all, Howdy fellow Wingnuts! Now that that is out of the way, I am going to take a risk. I am going to disagree with a HOF in Jimmy D. It is time for the Wings to make major changes. So here are my thoughts.

1. The Wings should be thinking 10 new players over the next 2 off seasons. I understand that our overall team age is mid pack, but our stars and leaders are all 30+. Add in all the extra games they have played in the playoffs, most of them need to be considered 2 years older than the calender says they are. If you look at our core group: Datsyk, Z, Burt, franzen, Fillpula, Cleary, Hommer, Lidstrom, Stuart, and Kronwall, they are all over 30, play fewer games each year due to injuries, and have declining numbers. Some of these guys are UFA's and should walk. Others are already to old to have much trade value. Others are on the edge of losing value.

2. I would look to change out 5 this off season and 5 next year. Good news is, we have money to spend. Most would agree we need to get bigger, faster, younger, and grittyer. No not one demensional fighters, but guys that check and work the boards. If they also drop the gloves from time to time, great! But that is not the priority.

3. Let's start with G. We are set with Howard and if Mac is healthy, we are good at the backup position. No real need to spend any money here.

4. Defense. Currently we have the following under contract: Kronwall, Erickson, Kindl, White, Quincy, and Smith. That is 6. But there are some good UFA Dmen available, and let's not forget the captain. if Nick wants to return, GREAT! But not at more than 3 million per year. There are of course a couple UFA's that we should take a strong run at. Everyone know Suter. He is a 27 year old American Dman, and very good at both end of the ice. Throw him a 7 year, 42 million offer. But there is another guy that we shoudl also strongly consider: Carle with the Flyers. he is also a 27 year old American Dman. Not quite as good on the D end, but better than Suter on O. Might-key word-might be cheaper. I would offer and make a play for both. But why? That makes 9 on the D if Nick comes back??? true. But it gives us the option of sending Smith back to the minors for one more year to over rippen, and then makes some D avilable to trade.
I would love to see a D that lined up like this:
Lidstrom-White
Suter-Carle
Erikson-Quincy
Kindl
Smith in the minors to replace Nicky next season
Kronwall as trade bait.

5. Forwards. This is the area that we need to do the most work. we need to add 3+ new forwards this year and another 3-5 next year. We have to get bigger, faster, stronger, and tougher. We have plenty of good young forwards for the 3rd and 4th lines, plus the 2 spare forwards. Emmerton, Abdelkater, Muarsk, Helm, Miller, Eaves-if healthy, Sheahan, Cleary-he really belongs in one of these 2 lines, plus any number of other guys from GR. all have speed, most are young and cheap. If we decide to add another via FA, I am a fan of Dave Jones with Colorado. he has good size: 6-2/210, young 27 IIRC, and plays both ways. He is a bigger younger faster and healthier version of Cleary. Now for the harder part. The top 2 lines. This is where the problems start. this is where the "big names" are, the big money, and the fan fav's are found. Let's start with Burtuzzi. Big, old, declining production, and signed. has almost 0 trade value. Franzen-big, fast, strong, signed long term, and completely disappears for long stretches of the season. He is cap friendly and does have some trde value. Datsyk. One of the best in the game. has great trade value, but moving him might cause riots in the streets. Long story short......hold onto all 3 for at least 1 more season. They are the top line, at least on paper. That brings us to the second line. As of today it is Zetterberg, Nyquist, and Filppula. That group has some talent. but it is very small. This is were i look to make at least 2 moves. Just thinking out loud...... What would it take to get Staal from the pens? kronwall and...... How much would it take to get van Reimsdyk from the Flyers? Filppula and........ or How much to get Pacioretty from the Habs? Or a Ryan from the Ducks? Point is, now we have some pieces we can trade with and get bigger, younger and faster. Even if it took moving Zetterberg, I would do it. a second line of Nyquist, Staal and Ryan looks a lot better to me than a line of Z, filppula and Nyquist.

6. The for 2013 we replace nicky with smith, and look at moves for the top line.


Ok, there they are. Go ahead flame away!!!! LOL!

#2 MibJab

MibJab

    Top Prospect

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 95 posts

Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:10 PM

You must play alot of NHL on xbox? I understand where you are coming from, but bottom line is.. Lidstrom at 3 mil = insult Trading Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg = insult. As a respectable, classy organization, why would we treat our top 3 guys in such manner? Datsyuk and Zetterberg need players to play around them, we need not to replace them. I'm all for shopping Franzen, Filpulla, and at the most extreme, maybe even Kronwall or Nyquist...But I don't understand how you can honestly think Lidstrom is going to sign for 3 mil max, and Datsyuk and Zetterberg could be shopped. I saw the moon last night, maybe this has something to do with you're thinking methods.

#3 EastonWings

EastonWings

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 320 posts

Posted 06 May 2012 - 05:18 PM

Yea good thing you are not the gm. We'd break our 22 straight of making the playoffs with a massive overhaul. Adding a couple free agents would Put us in contention again. I laugh at some of the people on here posting all year how we needed a fourth line grinder befOre the deadline. It's been obvious for what the wings lacked. They have so many playmakers and yet no true snipers. They lack speed and size. There older players are the guys who have been injured thru the yr and the playoffs yet they compete. They need to realistcly let guys like bertuzzi,holmstrom,hudler walk. Yes bring in guys like d jones,Sheehan, jurco. All have size and skill. Then you add in a parise and you have a dangerous scoring team. I like yur thoughts on the d. Just not sure they would play kindl over b smith. Wings outta offer parise,suter deals and retool on the fly.

#4 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,059 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:17 PM

IN NET - Officially, Holland wants to improve our goalie tandem - specifically, at the backup position (i.e. bye, Joey).

ON D - Holland should not and will not put a cap on Nick's contract. Ryan Suter, Dennis Wideman, Matt Carle - any one of them would be :thumbup: . Smith's a full-time Wing out of training camp.

IN GENERAL Don't expect any trades this summer. Babs basically said as much. And, by now, don't we know as much?

UP FRONT - Top 6 - We need a goal-scorer and a legitimate power-forward. Re: the latter, Franzen is probably that guy, unfortunately. Ryan Smyth kind of interests me, though I don't think he'd want to sign here. Dustin Penner is 6'4 but he doesn't properly utilize his frame, and he's an underachiever - which makes him the prototypical Red Wings power-forward. So I can see him coming here. Then again, the Kings may soon be the Cup champs....

Re: the former (the goal-scorer), we need Zach Parise.

Bottom 6 - We need a couple of big, tough, gritty, hard-working, blue-collar types. Ideally, one of these guys is a center, as we need a solid fourth-line pivot. (Babs wants Helm centering the third line.) I like Brandon Prust and, for the fourth-line center slot, Chris Kelly, Jason Arnott, or Zenon Konopka.

[/armchair]

Don't Toews me, bro!


#5 FlashyG

FlashyG

    1st Line All-Star

  • HoF Booster
  • 1,145 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:15 PM


UP FRONT
- Top 6 - We need a goal-scorer and a legitimate power-forward. Re: the latter, Franzen is probably that guy, unfortunately. Ryan Smyth kind of interests me, though I don't think he'd want to sign here. Dustin Penner is 6'4 but he doesn't properly utilize his frame, and he's an underachiever - which makes him the prototypical Red Wings power-forward. So I can see him coming here. Then again, the Kings may soon be the Cup champs....


Johan Franzen - 29g, 56pts, 60 hits
Ryan Smyth - 19g, 46pts, 53 hits
Dustin Penner - 7g, 17pts, 90 hits

Looking at their play this year the only way I'd want to sign either Smyth or Penner is as a bottom 6 player. Franzen is a more valuable top 6 forward than either of them right now, although if Penner could return to his form from the beginning of his career I could see him moving past Franzen on the depth chart.

It would depend on the salary he wants.

#6 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 06 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

Yzerman set the bar on hanging on for the last couple years. he played his last 4 or 5 years at less than 2 million. Add in a little inflation and the number is 3 million. The part every forgets is, to get someone good, you have to give someone good. There is also a salary cap. I know may are hot to trot over parise, but I am not one of them. he is another small forward, which we have a bunch of. the days of a team full of 5-11/180 players is over. yes a few are needed and can be successfull. But overall the average size is closer to 6-2/205. We have 3 forwards that are that size or bigger. 1 is old Burt, 1 disappears-Franzen, and 1 is very young Abelkater.
yes moving Zetterberg or datsyk will cause riots int he streets. I get that. But where will they be in 3 years? Old broken and with no trade value.

#7 FlashyG

FlashyG

    1st Line All-Star

  • HoF Booster
  • 1,145 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 06 May 2012 - 08:35 PM

Yzerman set the bar on hanging on for the last couple years. he played his last 4 or 5 years at less than 2 million. Add in a little inflation and the number is 3 million. The part every forgets is, to get someone good, you have to give someone good. There is also a salary cap. I know may are hot to trot over parise, but I am not one of them. he is another small forward, which we have a bunch of. the days of a team full of 5-11/180 players is over. yes a few are needed and can be successfull. But overall the average size is closer to 6-2/205. We have 3 forwards that are that size or bigger. 1 is old Burt, 1 disappears-Franzen, and 1 is very young Abelkater.
yes moving Zetterberg or datsyk will cause riots int he streets. I get that. But where will they be in 3 years? Old broken and with no trade value.


Steve Yzerman was the exception not the rule and he only took a discount for 1 year. He made 5.8 million in his 2nd last year and for his final year he took a salary of 1.25 million.

Neither Datsyuk or Zetterberg will ever be traded, regardless of trade value. They'll both retire as Red Wings. Its that dedication to our veterans that created the Wings reputation as a prime FA destination.

#8 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:50 PM

But the problem is, all of our core are old. They are all expensive. How many will still be playing in 5 years? You can't add new expensive star players will keeping/paying the old ones. Look at the following:

Z is 32. his point totals the last 5 years are: 92, 73, 70, 80, and 69.

Dat: 34 years points: 97, 97, 70, 59, 67

Franzen is 33 5 year points: 38, 59, 21, 55, 56 why a guy that has never scored 60 points in a season is considered a premier play is beyond me. he was 69th in scoring this year.

Bertuzzi is 37. 5 year points: 40, 44, 44, 45, 38

Cleary is 34. 5 year totals: 42, 40, 34, 46, 33

Lidstrom is 42 (we share that....LOL) 5 year totals: 70, 59, 49, 62, 34.

Kronwall is 31. 5 year totals: 35, 51, 22, 37, 36.

Now here is the point. All fo these guys are on a negitive slope. yes some improved in 2011, but with the ages involved that is more likely a 1 time thing than a trend. This group is not going to get better. Only worse. All are signed except Nicky of course. In this day and age we can't just cut them either.

No I do not exect Z and Dat to get traded. To much attached to them. But if we where going to, now is the time. Wait much longer and they will not have much value. Looking ahead a couple of years, a team that is lead by a 38 year old and 36 year old, at C is not going to go well.

#9 Echolalia

Echolalia

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,886 posts
  • Location:fab ferndale

Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:39 AM

Yzerman set the bar on hanging on for the last couple years. he played his last 4 or 5 years at less than 2 million. Add in a little inflation and the number is 3 million. The part every forgets is, to get someone good, you have to give someone good. There is also a salary cap. I know may are hot to trot over parise, but I am not one of them. he is another small forward, which we have a bunch of. the days of a team full of 5-11/180 players is over. yes a few are needed and can be successfull. But overall the average size is closer to 6-2/205. We have 3 forwards that are that size or bigger. 1 is old Burt, 1 disappears-Franzen, and 1 is very young Abelkater.
yes moving Zetterberg or datsyk will cause riots int he streets. I get that. But where will they be in 3 years? Old broken and with no trade value.


Yzerman was also damaged goods at that point, playing on one knee. He missed significant playing time each of those years with injury problems, and didn't pot more than 52 points since the 2000-2001 year. Yes he took a paycut, but its hardly equivalent to Lidstrom taking 3M/year to play, who is still quite healthy, quite effective, and even including the lost step he has endured with age, is still an elite defensman in the league.
I also have to disagree with you assessment of Parise: You are correct in labeling him as a small forward, but he is effective and gritty in the corners, and plays harder and more tenacious on the puck/body than the majority of our current roster. He isn't going to steamroll Weber, but he will make his presence felt given the opportunity. Keep an eye on him in the playoffs if you get the chance.
On our core: Datsyuk is currently 33, which isn't fresh but I wouldn't consider him "old" either. He's nearing the end of his prime, but he is certainly still there. I really don't get the desire to move perhaps the most effective two-way player in the game right now (and frankly the most effective two-way player I have ever seen, in any hockey era). Zetterberg isn't far behind him, and while he had terrible first-half numbers, it was revealed he was injured and really stepped it up in the second half. Z is younger, also in his prime, and still quite effective. Lidstrom is old, but still effective. Homer is also old, so is Bert, and none of them will be around much longer. Darren Helm is young and energetic, Abdelkader is a solid shut-down centerman who's backcheck and defensive game are quite underrated. Also young. Filppula is south of 30. Hudler is south of 30. Jimmy Howard is south of 30. Emmerton, Ericsson, Miller, Eaves, Quincey, White and many others are younger than 30. I don't know that its fair to say that we're an old team anymore. We're the youngest we've been in over a decade.

#10 F.Michael

F.Michael

    Old School Dynamic Duo

  • HoF Booster
  • 7,530 posts
  • Location:Wisconsin

Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:30 AM

Wow - looks like someone else shares my views on the future of the Red Wings.

'Evolution' created by Offsides

#11 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,059 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 07 May 2012 - 07:24 AM

Johan Franzen - 29g, 56pts, 60 hits
Ryan Smyth - 19g, 46pts, 53 hits
Dustin Penner - 7g, 17pts, 90 hits

Looking at their play this year the only way I'd want to sign either Smyth or Penner is as a bottom 6 player. Franzen is a more valuable top 6 forward than either of them right now, although if Penner could return to his form from the beginning of his career I could see him moving past Franzen on the depth chart.

It would depend on the salary he wants.


Odds are, we don't get either of them, and Franzen keeps his spot in the top 6, and we continue to misguidedly count on him to be That Guy for us - the big raging power-forward that the best shutdown players in the league absolutely hate to play against. Not that I think Smyth or Penner would be significantly better, mind you.

As for the age issue - we're a bit too old, I suppose. But none of our older players are going to be traded, so we're going to have to get younger by way of FAs and prospects. Really, though - age isn't one of our key worries. We need scoring. We need to get bigger, tougher, stronger, meaner, harder to play against. We need our D to not spot the opposition two goals every game in the playoffs....

Don't Toews me, bro!


#12 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,742 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:17 AM

First of all, Howdy fellow Wingnuts! Now that that is out of the way, I am going to take a risk. I am going to disagree with a HOF in Jimmy D. It is time for the Wings to make major changes. So here are my thoughts.

1. The Wings should be thinking 10 new players over the next 2 off seasons. I understand that our overall team age is mid pack, but our stars and leaders are all 30+. Add in all the extra games they have played in the playoffs, most of them need to be considered 2 years older than the calender says they are. If you look at our core group: Datsyk, Z, Burt, franzen, Fillpula, Cleary, Hommer, Lidstrom, Stuart, and Kronwall, they are all over 30, play fewer games each year due to injuries, and have declining numbers. Some of these guys are UFA's and should walk. Others are already to old to have much trade value. Others are on the edge of losing value.

2. I would look to change out 5 this off season and 5 next year. Good news is, we have money to spend. Most would agree we need to get bigger, faster, younger, and grittyer. No not one demensional fighters, but guys that check and work the boards. If they also drop the gloves from time to time, great! But that is not the priority.

3. Let's start with G. We are set with Howard and if Mac is healthy, we are good at the backup position. No real need to spend any money here.

4. Defense. Currently we have the following under contract: Kronwall, Erickson, Kindl, White, Quincy, and Smith. That is 6. But there are some good UFA Dmen available, and let's not forget the captain. if Nick wants to return, GREAT! But not at more than 3 million per year. There are of course a couple UFA's that we should take a strong run at. Everyone know Suter. He is a 27 year old American Dman, and very good at both end of the ice. Throw him a 7 year, 42 million offer. But there is another guy that we shoudl also strongly consider: Carle with the Flyers. he is also a 27 year old American Dman. Not quite as good on the D end, but better than Suter on O. Might-key word-might be cheaper. I would offer and make a play for both. But why? That makes 9 on the D if Nick comes back??? true. But it gives us the option of sending Smith back to the minors for one more year to over rippen, and then makes some D avilable to trade.
I would love to see a D that lined up like this:
Lidstrom-White
Suter-Carle
Erikson-Quincy
Kindl
Smith in the minors to replace Nicky next season
Kronwall as trade bait.

5. Forwards. This is the area that we need to do the most work. we need to add 3+ new forwards this year and another 3-5 next year. We have to get bigger, faster, stronger, and tougher. We have plenty of good young forwards for the 3rd and 4th lines, plus the 2 spare forwards. Emmerton, Abdelkater, Muarsk, Helm, Miller, Eaves-if healthy, Sheahan, Cleary-he really belongs in one of these 2 lines, plus any number of other guys from GR. all have speed, most are young and cheap. If we decide to add another via FA, I am a fan of Dave Jones with Colorado. he has good size: 6-2/210, young 27 IIRC, and plays both ways. He is a bigger younger faster and healthier version of Cleary. Now for the harder part. The top 2 lines. This is where the problems start. this is where the "big names" are, the big money, and the fan fav's are found. Let's start with Burtuzzi. Big, old, declining production, and signed. has almost 0 trade value. Franzen-big, fast, strong, signed long term, and completely disappears for long stretches of the season. He is cap friendly and does have some trde value. Datsyk. One of the best in the game. has great trade value, but moving him might cause riots in the streets. Long story short......hold onto all 3 for at least 1 more season. They are the top line, at least on paper. That brings us to the second line. As of today it is Zetterberg, Nyquist, and Filppula. That group has some talent. but it is very small. This is were i look to make at least 2 moves. Just thinking out loud...... What would it take to get Staal from the pens? kronwall and...... How much would it take to get van Reimsdyk from the Flyers? Filppula and........ or How much to get Pacioretty from the Habs? Or a Ryan from the Ducks? Point is, now we have some pieces we can trade with and get bigger, younger and faster. Even if it took moving Zetterberg, I would do it. a second line of Nyquist, Staal and Ryan looks a lot better to me than a line of Z, filppula and Nyquist.

6. The for 2013 we replace nicky with smith, and look at moves for the top line.


Ok, there they are. Go ahead flame away!!!! LOL!

When I read posts like this, I am glad Ken Holland is in charge.
Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#13 Rhah

Rhah

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  • Location:Champaign, IL

Posted 07 May 2012 - 09:08 AM

... but its hardly equivalent to Lidstrom taking 3M/year to play, who is still quite healthy, quite effective, and even including the lost step he has endured with age, is still an elite defensman in the league.


What was up with his foot that they kept mentioning during round 1? And because of it he can't play on the PK lines? Is that injury going to linger into next season?




#14 Hatethedrake!

Hatethedrake!

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,496 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 07 May 2012 - 09:34 AM

What was up with his foot that they kept mentioning during round 1? And because of it he can't play on the PK lines? Is that injury going to linger into next season?




It was a deep bone bruise in his foot which just doesn't heal overnight. It must have been painful as hell to skate on. It hindered his mobility which in turn affected his whole game. It was not broken so he will be fully healed come Training Camp provided he does not retire of course.
Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#15 Motown4013

Motown4013

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,067 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 07 May 2012 - 09:54 AM

But the problem is, all of our core are old. They are all expensive. How many will still be playing in 5 years? You can't add new expensive star players will keeping/paying the old ones. Look at the following:

Z is 32. his point totals the last 5 years are: 92, 73, 70, 80, and 69.

Dat: 34 years points: 97, 97, 70, 59, 67

Franzen is 33 5 year points: 38, 59, 21, 55, 56 why a guy that has never scored 60 points in a season is considered a premier play is beyond me. he was 69th in scoring this year.

Bertuzzi is 37. 5 year points: 40, 44, 44, 45, 38

Cleary is 34. 5 year totals: 42, 40, 34, 46, 33

Lidstrom is 42 (we share that....LOL) 5 year totals: 70, 59, 49, 62, 34.

Kronwall is 31. 5 year totals: 35, 51, 22, 37, 36.

Now here is the point. All fo these guys are on a negitive slope. yes some improved in 2011, but with the ages involved that is more likely a 1 time thing than a trend. This group is not going to get better. Only worse. All are signed except Nicky of course. In this day and age we can't just cut them either.

No I do not exect Z and Dat to get traded. To much attached to them. But if we where going to, now is the time. Wait much longer and they will not have much value. Looking ahead a couple of years, a team that is lead by a 38 year old and 36 year old, at C is not going to go well.

I understand your point and some of your arguements have merit, but these numbers are quite misleading. You only give stats for the last 5 year with no mention of X factors, like injuries, line mate injuries or other issues. You have Lids looking like he had a terrible year but dont mention he was a PLUS player (+21) this year and a -2 last year, Played 12 less games (and probably would have stayed out a bit longer if the wings had time) AND he was playing with a player in White that is a much less effective D-man than Rafalski.
Don't like those numbers...lets examine Bert. He has been quite consistant when it comes to numbers but he only but up 38 this year compared to a mid 40's campain...well, again, Bert missed 11 games with back spasms and a sinus infection. He played on 3 different lines with probably 8 different guys, He's a half point player a game...add 6 points in those 11 games that he missed, and he is just about the same as he has been the last 5 years EXCEPT that he improved in some areas..He was a PLUS 23 this year compared to a -7. He had the best shot percentage in the last 5 years and he was lights out in the shoot out. Same with Z and Pavs. Pavs missed 12 games...he could have missed 20. He played with Bert and a very lazy Franzen all year but still put up close to a point a game ( 67 in 70) when he was injured. Zetterberg had a horrid start but was more than a point a game, and dominated games once he got his mojo going. These two guys do sooooo much in the defensive end that their value cant be measured until you see them play.

I know people say stats dont lie...they don't........... but they can be presented in a way that looks good. You have to look at the entire picture and I dont think you did that.
Raising another Red Wings Fan!

The future looks bright in Hockeytown!
GUSTAV SNIPEQUIST!

#16 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 07 May 2012 - 10:34 AM

I understand your point and some of your arguements have merit, but these numbers are quite misleading. You only give stats for the last 5 year with no mention of X factors, like injuries, line mate injuries or other issues. You have Lids looking like he had a terrible year but dont mention he was a PLUS player (+21) this year and a -2 last year, Played 12 less games (and probably would have stayed out a bit longer if the wings had time) AND he was playing with a player in White that is a much less effective D-man than Rafalski.
Don't like those numbers...lets examine Bert. He has been quite consistant when it comes to numbers but he only but up 38 this year compared to a mid 40's campain...well, again, Bert missed 11 games with back spasms and a sinus infection. He played on 3 different lines with probably 8 different guys, He's a half point player a game...add 6 points in those 11 games that he missed, and he is just about the same as he has been the last 5 years EXCEPT that he improved in some areas..He was a PLUS 23 this year compared to a -7. He had the best shot percentage in the last 5 years and he was lights out in the shoot out. Same with Z and Pavs. Pavs missed 12 games...he could have missed 20. He played with Bert and a very lazy Franzen all year but still put up close to a point a game ( 67 in 70) when he was injured. Zetterberg had a horrid start but was more than a point a game, and dominated games once he got his mojo going. These two guys do sooooo much in the defensive end that their value cant be measured until you see them play.

I know people say stats dont lie...they don't........... but they can be presented in a way that looks good. You have to look at the entire picture and I dont think you did that.



Glad you brought up injuries. all of these guys are old, and older players get hurt more often than younger players. it also takes them longer to recover. That is very much part of their decline. None of these guys are going to get healthier as they get older. just doesn't happen. nicky is/was a freak of nature going as long as he did before father time caught up with him. kind of like Nolan Ryan in baseball. no one that age should be that durable and throw that hard.
The cold hard trueth is, all of those players are in decline. if you go and look at all the teams in every professional sport, the teams that make deep playoff runs and win championships have the majority of their players in the 27-32 age group. That is when men reach the physical peak, and have the experience to be good.

The evidence to our decline is starring everyone in the face. We just lost in the 1st round to the Preds. Other than Suter and Weber, is anyone on their team worth trading our best players for? Go through their forwards and ours. rank them 1-14. our 1 is better than theirs. Our 2 is better than theirs. Our 3 is better than theirs. Etc... yet we lost and it wasn't even close. They as a team were bigger, younger, faster, and more hungrey than we were.

As for money/FA items, keep this in mind. we have about 20 million overall to spend. We need to resign helm and Abdelkater. That will take around 4 million. Leaves 16. if Nicky returns, that spends another 3-4 million. Leaving 12 to spend. Even if we are lucky enough to add Suter and parise (spelling), we are at best the same team that just lost in the 1st round. Parise is going to have to have his career best year to offset the lost goals by Holmstrom and Hudler. Stuart and Suter is about a wash.

For the past 20 years we as a team have been smaller than average. but we were faster and more skilled, which allowed us to win. Now the league is filled with guys 3+ inches taller and 15+ pounds heavier that are as fast or faster and every bit as skilled.

#17 Motown4013

Motown4013

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,067 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:39 PM

Glad you brought up injuries. all of these guys are old, and older players get hurt more often than younger players. it also takes them longer to recover. That is very much part of their decline. None of these guys are going to get healthier as they get older. just doesn't happen. nicky is/was a freak of nature going as long as he did before father time caught up with him. kind of like Nolan Ryan in baseball. no one that age should be that durable and throw that hard.
The cold hard trueth is, all of those players are in decline. if you go and look at all the teams in every professional sport, the teams that make deep playoff runs and win championships have the majority of their players in the 27-32 age group. That is when men reach the physical peak, and have the experience to be good.

The evidence to our decline is starring everyone in the face. We just lost in the 1st round to the Preds. Other than Suter and Weber, is anyone on their team worth trading our best players for? Go through their forwards and ours. rank them 1-14. our 1 is better than theirs. Our 2 is better than theirs. Our 3 is better than theirs. Etc... yet we lost and it wasn't even close. They as a team were bigger, younger, faster, and more hungrey than we were.

As for money/FA items, keep this in mind. we have about 20 million overall to spend. We need to resign helm and Abdelkater. That will take around 4 million. Leaves 16. if Nicky returns, that spends another 3-4 million. Leaving 12 to spend. Even if we are lucky enough to add Suter and parise (spelling), we are at best the same team that just lost in the 1st round. Parise is going to have to have his career best year to offset the lost goals by Holmstrom and Hudler. Stuart and Suter is about a wash.

For the past 20 years we as a team have been smaller than average. but we were faster and more skilled, which allowed us to win. Now the league is filled with guys 3+ inches taller and 15+ pounds heavier that are as fast or faster and every bit as skilled.

Wow, you make blanketed statement with the age and injury thing
I understand we lost a lot of players due to injury but you cant just say that the team is old. How about Helm, Ericsson, Kindl, Mursak, Quincey and Eaves. ALL missed 10 games or more due to injury....average age...23.5 years. Kinda debunks your myth because from where I am sitting, young guys get hurt just like the old geezers...No question that it takes older guys longer to heal- It also takes experience on how to take a hit, when to press and when to sit, how to fall so you dont hurt yourself.
No doubt this team is missing a few key parts...It became evident as year wore on BUT this is also the same team who won 23 games in a row at home, setting a new NHL record and did a lot of things right. If this team is capable of that, we dont need a major overhaul. We dont need to look at replacing 10 people on this team in the next 2 years.....thats NOT gonna happen and it shouldnt. Key components with our core group and the Wings will be where they want to be.
PS Love David Jones? Bigger, Stronger, Faster, Healthier..No, missed 11 games due to injury. Just sayin'

Edited by Motown4013, 07 May 2012 - 12:41 PM.

Raising another Red Wings Fan!

The future looks bright in Hockeytown!
GUSTAV SNIPEQUIST!

#18 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,198 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:03 PM

Thanks bud, i puked some of my lunch up in my mouth when i read Pacioretty....

This offseason, it's Parise or bust. The Wings could use Suter, but Parise is needed more as the Wings have decent depth at D and could always throw an offer at Weber next offseason. Smith will be up full time next year as he should have been this year. Send Prust an offer July 1st, there's some toughness and a quality player that could play on the 3rd line and rotate on the 2nd to get Z the puck.

The Wings don't need a complete overhaul, they just need to let pieces go that no longer belong. Taking an entire team and dismantling them is just pure stupidity. Guys like Sheahan and Jarnkrok will be on the team for sure probably starting the 2013 season and we'll most likely see more youth in the next couple years. To suggest trading away Dats and Z, you are not a true Wings fan. That's like saying the Wings should have traded away Federov and Shanahan back in the day.

Lets wait to see what Kenny does before we lose our s*** and use taglines like "EA Sports, it's in the game"

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#19 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:16 PM

Wow, you make blanketed statement with the age and injury thing
I understand we lost a lot of players due to injury but you cant just say that the team is old. How about Helm, Ericsson, Kindl, Mursak, Quincey and Eaves. ALL missed 10 games or more due to injury....average age...23.5 years. Kinda debunks your myth because from where I am sitting, young guys get hurt just like the old geezers...No question that it takes older guys longer to heal- It also takes experience on how to take a hit, when to press and when to sit, how to fall so you dont hurt yourself.
No doubt this team is missing a few key parts...It became evident as year wore on BUT this is also the same team who won 23 games in a row at home, setting a new NHL record and did a lot of things right. If this team is capable of that, we dont need a major overhaul. We dont need to look at replacing 10 people on this team in the next 2 years.....thats NOT gonna happen and it shouldnt. Key components with our core group and the Wings will be where they want to be.
PS Love David Jones? Bigger, Stronger, Faster, Healthier..No, missed 11 games due to injury. Just sayin'



Winning during the regular season and winning in the playoffs are 2 very different things. For twenty years we have been 1 of the top 2 or 3 in wins during the regular season. we should have 10 Cups then right? Nope. They playoffs are a tough physical grind. Even the best teams like us, are pushing to win 1 out of 4 cups.

yes every player gets hurt at some point. the point is, as players age, they get hurt more often. That is very much part of their fade. heck this year was the first time we were fairly healthy goiing into the playoffs. Most of our injuries happened in the last month or so of the regular season. Still didn't help. we couldn't use that as an excuse this year.
I still go back a couple years to our playoff series vs the Yots. 1 player-Doan, decided to hit everything wearing Red and White. There was no answer from our team. None. Most of our stars disappeared. They ran and hid.

For those of us old enough to remember the 90's, we didn't start winning cups untill our grinders came of age. we had all the O in the world with Federov, Kozlov, Yzerman etc.... It was the additions of Kocur and Shanahan plus the maturity of McCarty and lapointe that made us great. They are the ones that checked, hit everyone, yes dropped the gloves, and gave the stars spce to move. Not to mention the genuis on the bench.... We as an organization have a gap right now. we have a bunch of guys over 30, and a bunch of guys 25 and younger, or in their first couple of years playing. we have very few stars or stud players between 25-30. There are 3 ways we can fix that. wait 3-4 more years for the young guys to develop-which mean 100 pt regular season and early playoffs loses, sign free agents, or make trades. Signing 2 players this year, and maybe 1 next is not enough. It will only maintain the staus quo. The fact that we are all on a forum discussing next year in early May sucks! Granted it is better than the 70's and early 80's and never making the playoffs-I remember that too........

Thanks bud, i puked some of my lunch up in my mouth when i read Pacioretty....

This offseason, it's Parise or bust. The Wings could use Suter, but Parise is needed more as the Wings have decent depth at D and could always throw an offer at Weber next offseason. Smith will be up full time next year as he should have been this year. Send Prust an offer July 1st, there's some toughness and a quality player that could play on the 3rd line and rotate on the 2nd to get Z the puck.

The Wings don't need a complete overhaul, they just need to let pieces go that no longer belong. Taking an entire team and dismantling them is just pure stupidity. Guys like Sheahan and Jarnkrok will be on the team for sure probably starting the 2013 season and we'll most likely see more youth in the next couple years. To suggest trading away Dats and Z, you are not a true Wings fan. That's like saying the Wings should have traded away Federov and Shanahan back in the day.

Lets wait to see what Kenny does before we lose our s*** and use taglines like "EA Sports, it's in the game"


Some of us remember who when Bowman was hired and he tried to run Yzerman out of town. It does happen. In fact it is rare to stay in one place your whole career. Go through just the RW history. Howe, Abel, delveccio, sawchuck, Lindsey, were all traded away at one point or another. Glad you brought up Shanahan. we traded for him. The let him walk as a FA. Got nothing back for him. He stayed 2 years to long.

#20 Frozen-Man

Frozen-Man

    Thanks for the memories

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,579 posts

Posted 07 May 2012 - 03:12 PM

Glad you brought up Shanahan. we traded for him. The let him walk as a FA. Got nothing back for him. He stayed 2 years to long.


I'm not sure how you think that a guy that scored 40 goals and 81 points his final year with the Wings stayed too long. :blink:

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users