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Tim.D

Red Wings make contract offer to D Justin Schultz

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

He wasn't insulting your education he was saying maybe Schultz wanted to get an education.

Any GM in the league would gladly give up Kindl for Schultz, he is the 3rd most sought after possible free agent right behind Parise and Suter and ahead of a whole bunch of other guys who have already played in the NHL

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He wasn't insultin your education he was saying maybe Schultz wanted to get an education.

Any GM in the league would gladly give up Kindl for Schultz, he is the 3rd most sought after possible free agent right behind Parise and Suter and ahead of a whole bunch of other guys who have already played in the NHL

What Kipwinger said is true. Schultz played hockey in the NCAA, and in a pretty weak league at that. Sure, he wanted to get an education, and I don't fault him for that. People still shouldn't look at those point totals and get a hard on over them. He is a prospect at this stage, and nothing more.

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What Kipwinger said is true. Schultz played hockey in the NCAA, and in a pretty weak league at that. Sure, he wanted to get an education, and I don't fault him for that. People still shouldn't look at those point totals and get a hard on over them. He is a prospect at this stage, and nothing more.

So let me get his right. Smith plays at the same school, in the same league, and per those on this forum he is a can't miss prospect. schultz out performs Smith and he is to risky, overrated etc........ is this what you are trying to say? just want to make sure before I bust a gut laughing my ass off.

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So let me get his right. Smith plays at the same school, in the same league, and per those on this forum he is a can't miss prospect. schultz out performs Smith and he is to risky, overrated etc........ is this what you are trying to say? just want to make sure before I bust a gut laughing my ass off.

Brendan Smith played two years of AHL hockey and competed for his spot in two Red Wings training camps. Schultz didn't. Next.

Edited by kipwinger

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Brendan Smith played two years of AHL hockey and competed for his spot in two Red Wings training camps. Schultz didn't. Next.

That isn't schultz fault he hasn't played there yet. well it kinda is. But, when they did play at the same level on the same team, schultz was better. That is fact, not opinion. better numbers-not a lot, accross the board. Which if anything should make us more excited about going after him. Picking up another guy that is equal to or better than smith, and costing us nothing!!!! How can any logical fan not think this is a good move?

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

That isn't schultz fault he hasn't played there yet. well it kinda is. But, when they did play at the same level on the same team, schultz was better. That is fact, not opinion. better numbers-not a lot, accross the board. Which if anything should make us more excited about going after him. Picking up another guy that is equal to or better than smith, and costing us nothing!!!! How can any logical fan not think this is a good move?

Schultz is a year older than Smith was when he was jr. there and Smith is more physical but otherwise they are very similar and Schultz is a right-handed shot. I think they are both going to be great NHLers

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Does anyone on this thread realize that 3 seasons ago Brendan Smith put up BETTER numbers (52 points) than Schultz ever has in the three seasons hes played (highest is 44). Smith is the one with more offensive upside - but Schultz seems to almost as offensivley inclined but seems to make the more low risk plays and not get caught as much. Smith I suppose you could liken more to a Phaneuf or Jack Johnson and Schultz to more of a Suter or Erhoff. As a pro nobody knows how good hell be ... that extra size/speed/roughness can turn a great prospect into a gunshy nobody pretty quickly. That said, if the money and terms reasonable if there has EVER been a time to stick our necks out there and take a chance on a kid its now. ESPECIALLY is Suter ends up resigning or going elsewhere early on July 1st.

Edited by jroc86

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That isn't schultz fault he hasn't played there yet. well it kinda is. But, when they did play at the same level on the same team, schultz was better. That is fact, not opinion. better numbers-not a lot, accross the board. Which if anything should make us more excited about going after him. Picking up another guy that is equal to or better than smith, and costing us nothing!!!! How can any logical fan not think this is a good move?

Picking him up for nothing IS a good thing. No one is debating that. I think the debate here is...

Is he NHL ready right now?

The answer to that is a resounding no.

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cant understand all the arguing, no one will really know unless he is thrown in and see what happens.

A young kid played only 2 full seasons in the Swedish top league not putting up big numbers and was

then thrown into the NHL at only 21yrs, the result is history!!!

Anyway, id like the Wings to take a look at another FA from the NCAA, Aaron Schmit big winger with

Ferris State.

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Picking him up for nothing IS a good thing. No one is debating that. I think the debate here is...

Is he NHL ready right now?

The answer to that is a resounding no.

Basing that on your decades of being a pro hockey scout and coach? fact is no one knows how anyone will turn out. yes that also includes Smith. A handfull of games does not make a career. besides, who said he has to help this season? if we keep Quincey we have 6 Dman already. i do expect us to get one of the 4 top UFA D's out there. The perfect solution would be sign schultz, 1 year at GR, then he replaces White who is a UFA after this season.

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Basing that on your decades of being a pro hockey scout and coach? fact is no one knows how anyone will turn out. yes that also includes Smith. A handfull of games does not make a career. besides, who said he has to help this season? if we keep Quincey we have 6 Dman already. i do expect us to get one of the 4 top UFA D's out there. The perfect solution would be sign schultz, 1 year at GR, then he replaces White who is a UFA after this season.

I don't think that is a safe expectation to make. While Shultz is completely unproven at the NHL level, he has shown a lot of potential, and seems to have all the raw tools to be a difference maker in the NHL. That alone will be enough for some team to pursue this kid with the promise of guaranteed good minutes in the big leagues, and maybe even a leadership role in a few years. With our defensive depth and very high seasonal expectations, Neither Holland nor Babs can nor should give those same promises. Consequently, Shultz might be more inclined to go elsewhere if he suspects he'll be in Grand Rapids this year.

If this kid has high expectations of himself and thinks he can outperform Kindl, Smith, or Quincey, and earn his spot in the top six, then maybe he takes the chance and signs with us.

In any event, it's dangerous to expect him to replace White and his role in the lineup a year from now. Regardless of the amount of potential this kid has and the magnitude of hype that follows his name (not to mention how much White is looked down upon at LGW), were still talking about a kid with no experience playing in the NHL, and a guy who plays top defensive minutes on one of the most well respected and well run organizations in sports.

I'm all for throwing an offer at Shultz so long as he is aware that the Wings don't reward players for potential alone. If he wants a good contract, he has to show he deserves it. If he wants top line minutes on our team, he needs to outperform the other guys fighting for that spot. if that doesn't sound good to him, I'm sure Montreal or Toronto has some space on their roster, and they'll be happy to throw everything that Shultz wants based on his prospect scouting report.

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Who is better, Smith or Schultz? Does it matter? The fact is Schultz is better than Kindl period. Which automatically would give Schultz a #6/#7 spot on the Wings...

Sign Suter, Schultz, Dekeyser...trade Kindl, let Qunicey explore RFA. Kindl has been given ample opportunity to prove he belongs in the NHL, and he does, but not here. He may make a #5/#6 somewhere else, but he is not going to here. Drafts are a crap shoot and we are learning that Kindl was pretty much a bust for where he was drafted...Quincey is more valuable to us for the draft picks in return, not worth $3.5M. I hate sounding negative about two NHL experienced defensemen, but like someone said earlier, now is the time to stick our neck out and go young and let them grow in the organization...

Kronwall/Suter

White/Ericsson

Smith/Schultz

Dekeyser

Inexperience bottom 3? Yes, but they will all grow together and in three-four years they will all be great! As long as they all pay together and learn together...

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He wasn't insultin your education he was saying maybe Schultz wanted to get an education.

Actually he was doing both. Look at the post again, he referenced Schultz wanting to get an education but also unequivocally stated that Kip needed an education.

Your a dumbass Kip, maybe Schultz wanted to.. I don't know.. get an EDUCATION!? Something you clearly need.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

What Kipwinger said is true. Schultz played hockey in the NCAA, and in a pretty weak league at that. Sure, he wanted to get an education, and I don't fault him for that. People still shouldn't look at those point totals and get a hard on over them. He is a prospect at this stage, and nothing more.

Crosby was a prospect his last year of jr and then he scored more than 100 points the next year in the NHL

cant understand all the arguing, no one will really know unless he is thrown in and see what happens.

A young kid played only 2 full seasons in the Swedish top league not putting up big numbers and was

then thrown into the NHL at only 21yrs, the result is history!!!

Anyway, id like the Wings to take a look at another FA from the NCAA, Aaron Schmit big winger with

Ferris State.

Or Jeremy Welsh

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Crosby was a prospect his last year of jr and then he scored more than 100 points the next year in the NHL

Crosby also scored over 200 points in 121 games. Apples and oranges comparison.

Basing that on your decades of being a pro hockey scout and coach? fact is no one knows how anyone will turn out. yes that also includes Smith. A handfull of games does not make a career. besides, who said he has to help this season? if we keep Quincey we have 6 Dman already. i do expect us to get one of the 4 top UFA D's out there. The perfect solution would be sign schultz, 1 year at GR, then he replaces White who is a UFA after this season.

Wow, you really do have a reading comprehension problem.

I said that they should sign up, you agree.

I said that he is a prospect, you agree.

I said that he should be in Grand Rapids, you agree.

I guess that means we are both pro hockey scouts and coaches to mention the obvious. :D

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Who is better, Smith or Schultz? Does it matter? The fact is Schultz is better than Kindl period. Which automatically would give Schultz a #6/#7 spot on the Wings...

Sign Suter, Schultz, Dekeyser...trade Kindl, let Qunicey explore RFA. Kindl has been given ample opportunity to prove he belongs in the NHL, and he does, but not here. He may make a #5/#6 somewhere else, but he is not going to here. Drafts are a crap shoot and we are learning that Kindl was pretty much a bust for where he was drafted...Quincey is more valuable to us for the draft picks in return, not worth $3.5M. I hate sounding negative about two NHL experienced defensemen, but like someone said earlier, now is the time to stick our neck out and go young and let them grow in the organization...

Kronwall/Suter

White/Ericsson

Smith/Schultz

Dekeyser

Inexperience bottom 3? Yes, but they will all grow together and in three-four years they will all be great! As long as they all pay together and learn together...

Again, I'll gladly concede this entire discussion if you can provide me with even one piece of tangible evidence that PROVES either of these assertions. Saying it doesn't make it so. There is no way to compare Kindl to Schultz because Schultz has not played enough hockey at a competitive enough level, and there's nothing at all that says the kid will inevitably become "great" so long as he's on a pairing with Smith for a few years.

Everything you've said so far is pure speculation. Unless you've got some proof I'm not aware of.

Pretty please, explain to me how you can FACTUALLY make the assertions "Schultz is better than Kindl" and "Schultz will be great". Pretty please.

Also, and answer this honestly: Have you ever even seen this kid play one full hockey game?

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Crosby was a prospect his last year of jr and then he scored more than 100 points the next year in the NHL

Or Jeremy Welsh

I've already addressed this issue. It would help for you to read back over the WHOLE discussion, but in the event that you won't I'll go ahead and paraphrase all of my assertions.

1. It is next to impossible to tell whether a kid will be good in the NHL based ONLY on 111 NCAA hockey games.

2. Unless you're a once in a lifetime talent like Stamkos, Toews, or Crosby you need to undergo proper player development.

3 Proper player development includes competing in training camp and spending time in the AHL.

4. Players who have not undergone this process of development, and aren't considered once in a lifetime talents, should not be guaranteed NHL roster spots over established players.

5. Justin Schultz is not a once in a lifetime talent. He also hasn't undergone proper player development. Therefore, he shouldn't be guaranteed anything without competing for it.

FInally,...

6. Sign Justin Schultz to a two way contract and let him develop and compete like all of our other prospects. When he's ready, he's ready.

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I've already addressed this issue. It would help for you to read back over the WHOLE discussion, but in the event that you won't I'll go ahead and paraphrase all of my assertions.

1. It is next to impossible to tell whether a kid will be good in the NHL based ONLY on 111 NCAA hockey games.

2. Unless you're a once in a lifetime talent like Stamkos, Toews, or Crosby you need to undergo proper player development.

3 Proper player development includes competing in training camp and spending time in the AHL.

4. Players who have not undergone this process of development, and aren't considered once in a lifetime talents, should not be guaranteed NHL roster spots over established players.

5. Justin Schultz is not a once in a lifetime talent. He also hasn't undergone proper player development. Therefore, he shouldn't be guaranteed anything without competing for it.

FInally,...

6. Sign Justin Schultz to a two way contract and let him develop and compete like all of our other prospects. When he's ready, he's ready.

Again you are speaking to facts not in evidence. You have no idea, nor do I or anyone else, if Schultz is ready right now to play in the NHL. Did not Abdelkder go straight from MSU to the Wings? yes he did. Kreider of the Rangers just did it this year. Kreider was drafted in the same area of the draft as Schultz was. I am sure there are more examples of this, just have those 2 off the top of my head. You are under estimating the value of college hockey and over valuing the level of play in the AHL. Heck most seasons the Wolverines are better than the Griffins. Same can be said for MSU and other top programs.

Who is better, Smith or Schultz? Does it matter? The fact is Schultz is better than Kindl period. Which automatically would give Schultz a #6/#7 spot on the Wings...

Sign Suter, Schultz, Dekeyser...trade Kindl, let Qunicey explore RFA. Kindl has been given ample opportunity to prove he belongs in the NHL, and he does, but not here. He may make a #5/#6 somewhere else, but he is not going to here. Drafts are a crap shoot and we are learning that Kindl was pretty much a bust for where he was drafted...Quincey is more valuable to us for the draft picks in return, not worth $3.5M. I hate sounding negative about two NHL experienced defensemen, but like someone said earlier, now is the time to stick our neck out and go young and let them grow in the organization...

Kronwall/Suter

White/Ericsson

Smith/Schultz

Dekeyser

Inexperience bottom 3? Yes, but they will all grow together and in three-four years they will all be great! As long as they all pay together and learn together...

Dekeyser would be a great signing.....next spring. He has alreay decided to go back to WMU for one more year. IIRC.......

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Did not Abdelkder go straight from MSU to the Wings? yes he did.

Uh no, not really unless you're using the 2 games he played in the regular season in 2008 after leaving school as "straight to the Wings". He spent a good portion of 2 seasons in Grand Rapids.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471716

If that really is the definition of straight to the Wings then, I guess we can say Riley Sheahan did the same thing.

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Again, I'll gladly concede this entire discussion if you can provide me with even one piece of tangible evidence that PROVES either of these assertions. Saying it doesn't make it so. There is no way to compare Kindl to Schultz because Schultz has not played enough hockey at a competitive enough level, and there's nothing at all that says the kid will inevitably become "great" so long as he's on a pairing with Smith for a few years.

Everything you've said so far is pure speculation. Unless you've got some proof I'm not aware of.

Pretty please, explain to me how you can FACTUALLY make the assertions "Schultz is better than Kindl" and "Schultz will be great". Pretty please.

Also, and answer this honestly: Have you ever even seen this kid play one full hockey game?

Yes, purely speculation, but I have seen Kindl play plenty of times and he has failed every test so far... I do watch a fairly good amount of NCAA games, so yes I have seen him play a few, and he looks really really good to me, I suppose he could flop in the NHL, but so has Kindl. Schultz has the potential and can still prove himself, Kindl has done zilch to prove himself. He has been given plenty of chances to take a permanent spot on this team and he hasn't, my bad, he has, #7...

Will they be great? Maybe, but if I am going with a sub-million dollar #6 guy on his way out of the NHL and a #7 who just cannot stay in the lineup, I'd rather go with these three kids and let them grow into something that could be great that only comes by playing with each other everyday, every year, year after year. They just need the chance, and not just go stale in the AHL...

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Yes, purely speculation, but I have seen Kindl play plenty of times and he has failed every test so far... I do watch a fairly good amount of NCAA games, so yes I have seen him play a few, and he looks really really good to me, I suppose he could flop in the NHL, but so has Kindl. Schultz has the potential and can still prove himself, Kindl has done zilch to prove himself. He has been given plenty of chances to take a permanent spot on this team and he hasn't, my bad, he has, #7...

Will they be great? Maybe, but if I am going with a sub-million dollar #6 guy on his way out of the NHL and a #7 who just cannot stay in the lineup, I'd rather go with these three kids and let them grow into something that could be great that only comes by playing with each other everyday, every year, year after year. They just need the chance, and not just go stale in the AHL...

Aside from your feelings that are purely speculative....

I do agree with what you are saying. I was a strong supporter of having Smith in the lineup, and I would have put him with Lidstrom all season. Give him a chance to learn from the best and get top line minutes. He is going to have to go through the ringer sooner or later, and it may as well be sooner. That being said, I can also see value in assigning them in the AHL and getting better there. We have a wealth of players who have done that tour before and are successful today (Kronwall, Flip, and Hudler just to name a few).

Some people are fans of one way or the other. I am a fan of both because you get results both ways.

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Aside from your feelings that are purely speculative....

I do agree with what you are saying. I was a strong supporter of having Smith in the lineup, and I would have put him with Lidstrom all season. Give him a chance to learn from the best and get top line minutes. He is going to have to go through the ringer sooner or later, and it may as well be sooner. That being said, I can also see value in assigning them in the AHL and getting better there. We have a wealth of players who have done that tour before and are successful today (Kronwall, Flip, and Hudler just to name a few).

Some people are fans of one way or the other. I am a fan of both because you get results both ways.

That's the thing, nobody gets results by promoting guys straight from the NCAA to the NHL. Who has done that successfully? I can't even think of two or three instances in which that has worked out, let alone enough to say you get results either way.

Unless you're an elite talent, you don't go straight from the CHL or NCAA to the NHL without a development period in between. If people think Schultz is that good then fine, but I certainly have no reason to believe he's ready to be named in the same sentence as superstars capable of that.

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