33 replies to this topic

[Richdg]

Ok, nothing new about what he said. He understands that a tuned up is needed, so we don't have to go into a major rebuild. he publicly said we need to add 5 new players to the mix: 1 top six forward, 1 gritty bottom 6 forward, 2 d men, and a new backup goalie. Currently we have the following forwards: Dat, Z, Mule, Burt, cleary, filppula, abby, helm, miller, eaves, mursak, emmerton, and Nyquist. That is 13. 1 spot open. On D we have Kronwall, E, Quincey, Kindl, White and Smith. 6 guys, so 1 spot open. Goalie we have Howard and McDonald. 0 spots open. So with 2 open spots and 5 targets coming in, some players will be moved. Now the tougher part. Who goes, who comes in, and how?

Start at goalie, it is the easiest to answer. McDonald will be gone and a UFA will come in. McDonald has zero trade value, so either will be cut or become a throw in on a deal. There are several veterans goalies that could be had this year. No major changes in the roster, cap, or status of the team. If possible I would try to extend Howard now, rather than risk him next offseason.

Defensemen. This starts to get trickier. We have 6. yes Quincey could be allowed to walk, but that is a pretty big risk to take. There are 4 or5 real good UFA's, but then we have a fairly big drop off to the next group. We have to get 1 of those top 4 or 5 just to stand pat with Lidstrom retiring. I expect Quincey to be resigned. he can always be traded later on if we fail in our goal to sign 2 UFA Dmen. In a perfect world, we sign 1 of the Suter/garrison/Carle/Widemen group, keep Quincey to start the year, and sign Schultz. Trade Quincey once Schultz is ready. be it this year or next off season. The only other thing i would do with the BL corp is extend White now.


Forwards. This is far more challenging. There is one top 6 forward available via UFA: Parise. After him, most of the top UFA forwards are 2nd and 3rd line guys. Or they are C, and we are pretty deep at C if we so choose. Dat, Z, and Filppula is a pretty good 1-3 C rotation. helm at the 4th line C is perfect for the checking role. There are many names we can add for the 2nd and 3rd lines, that can be counted on for 20 goals. But where do we go if we miss out on parise? The million dollar question. If we fall to sign him, that means a trade. But where is the valueable players for us to trade? they are all on our roster already.

Trade value. Ok, of the 21 guys on the roster as of today, who can be moved, and who has value?

Dat, E, and Burt all have no trade clauses. Leaves only 18 names left.

Eaves (injury), Miller, mursak, Emmerton, Cleary (knee surgery), McDonald and Kindl really don't have much value for trades. keep in mind we need a top 6 forward.

That leaves a group of guys with value, that we would prefer to keep. Kronwall, White, Smith, Howard, Filppula, Z, Nyquist, Helm, and Abby.

That leaves 2 guys left that everyone has mixed feelings about: Franzen and Quincey.

So, now what palyers do we use to go after a top 6 forward? The entire group of Eaves, Miller, Mursak, Emmerton, Cleary, McDonald, and Kindl isn't going to be enough. Even if you add Quncey to that mix, you still don't have enough to get a top 6 guy. Not to mention you would have to cancel the Griffins season, just to have enough body's to fill out the roster. If you use guys like Filppula, Z, and Kronwall, you are opening other holes up, that you now need to fill.

So that brings me back to the question. If we miss out on parise, where do we go? grab 3 20 goal per year guys? Try to swing a major trade and open up another hole? maybe even bank the money untill next year, which is a much deeper class?

[Richdg]

Adding some cap thoughts to this. As of today we have 25 million to spend. This could change, and I think it will. Downward. But let's stick with 25 for now. If we were to try and resign Helm, Abby, Filppula, Quincy, White and Howard now, how much does it cost? Keep in mind the RFA's are not currently counted towards our cap total. I would expect helm and Abby to cost 3-4 million to keep them. Quincey another 3.5-4 million. So somewhere between 7 and 8 for those 3 guys. Filppula is making 4 now, so to extend him we will need to add what 1-2 million more? Or do we wait and risk him getting big money next year on the UFA market? same questions for White and Howard? I would think White would cost 1 million more to extend, but Howard is going to take 2.5+ million to extend. So that takes 12-15 million to keep those guys around. But if we do this, we eat up 50-60% of our available cap money. Yes we could wait a year on Filppula, White and Howard. The only one I wouldn't wait on from that group is Howard. The rest can be replaced next year. Quincey is the hot debate right now. resign or walk? letting him walk gives us some extra cash to play with, but what happens if we miss out? Is Kindl ready to play 75+ games as the number 6 D?

[number9]

McDonald will be gone and a UFA will come in. McDonald has zero trade value, so either will be cut or become a throw in on a deal.
McDonald will go back to GR


yes Quincey could be allowed to walk, but that is a pretty big risk to take. There are 4 or5 real good UFA's, but then we have a fairly big drop off to the next group. We have to get 1 of those top 4 or 5 just to stand pat with Lidstrom retiring. I expect Quincey to be resigned. he can always be traded later on if we fail in our goal to sign 2 UFA Dmen. In a perfect world, we sign 1 of the Suter/garrison/Carle/Widemen group, keep Quincey to start the year, and sign Schultz. Trade Quincey once Schultz is ready. be it this year or next off season. The only other thing i would do with the BL corp is extend White now.
Quincey is RFA and will be qualified for around 3 million. If he accepts we get him for a bargain. Only way he'll be traded is if we trade his rights before he accepts a contract.

[Kerjuxaxaxa]

Why do you think Semin is not an option?

[FlashyG]

Link to Holland's comments please? I must have missed the interview when he so specifically listed where we needed to upgrade.
If this is from the Garrison thread/article, it wasn't Holland who outlined our needs or anyone with a connection to the Wings. It was Windsor Star writer Dave Waddell.

All Holland said was that this may be his most important off season of his managerial career, that he's had some trade talk at the Winter meetings and that he'd be open to trading for someone's rights if the price was right and the player was a target of theirs.

As far as our roster spots we have Hudler, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Stuart and Conklin's roster spots opening so there isn't a need for a trade, although making one for Parise or Suter's rights might make it a little easier to work some young blood into our roster next season and keep the cost down on Parise and Suter's deals.

Franzen while not popular among fans is signed long term to a favorable cap hit and is our leading goal scorer in an off-season where we will most likely lose our 2nd best goal scorer. Unless he's being traded in a package for a better goal scorer there is absolutely no chance of him being traded.

Lastly, I think you should define what a top 6 forward is to you? Semin, Selanne, Hudler, Whitney, Jokinen, Doan, Jones, Parenteau, and Jagr are all top 6 forwards and only Jokinen is a C.
Is this like how you view prospects where everyone has to fit into either the mold of a can't miss prospect or career minor leaguer?

McDonald will go back to GR

I don't think we can send him to GR without putting him through waivers. He signed a 2 year deal with last year being a 2 way deal and this year a 1 way.

[Jedi]

Link to Holland's comments please?

Yeah, I'd like to see these comments too.

I don't think we can send him to GR without putting him through waivers. He signed a 2 year deal with last year being a 2 way deal and this year a 1 way.

A 1 way deal or a 2 way deal have absolutely nothing to do with a players waiver eligibility. That's solely dependent on a player's age, years of NHL/AHL experience, and number of games played.

Pension Plan Puppets has a good explanation of waiver eligibility and 1-way/2-way contracts...

...I didn't touch on how 2-way contracts affect waivers. Simply put, they don't. A 1-way or 2-way contract has no bearing on a player's waiver status, it dictates how much a player gets paid if they play in the AHL. I blame EA Sports for this misconception, because that's pretty much the only way they determine waivers in their game. (Hey EA, maybe instead of making sure that each person in the crowd has individual animations, you should focus on keeping your rosters as accurate as possible and making sure the salary cap actually works correctly.)

If a player on a one-way contract goes to the AHL, they receive the same compensation that they would if they played in the NHL (with the obvious exception of any bonuses that would be likely calculated based on the performance in the NHL, as stipulated in the contract.)

Conversely, a 2-way contract stipulates that the player receives compensation at $X if they play in the NHL, and $Y if they play in the AHL.

[VM1138]

I think goalie will be one of the more understated signings this off-season. Holland will go for an unlikely player, probably someone young to challenge Howard. As far as defense, I personally think he's going to sign a Top 6 player (like Parise) but also sign another scorer, not just a gritty fourth liner. We'll be losing Hudler, too, remember. But I think that second scorer is more of a Hudler-type, 2nd-3rd line depth. But if we don't replace him we're not any better off than we were this season, even if we sign Parise.

[ogreslayer]

Start at goalie, it is the easiest to answer. McDonald will be gone and a UFA will come in. McDonald has zero trade value, so either will be cut or become a throw in on a deal. There are several veterans goalies that could be had this year. No major changes in the roster, cap, or status of the team. If possible I would try to extend Howard now, rather than risk him next offseason.

Who is this McDonald guy you keep talking about? The Wings have no such person on the roster. Oh, you mean Joey MacDonald? I seriously doubt he'll be cut or thrown in on a deal. He'll be put through waivers & either play in GR or the Wings lose him if another teams wants to claim him. So realistically, he'll be in GR splitting time with McCollum and/or Petr Mrazek throughout the season.

[wingslogo19]

It seems like I've seen this thread before

[rick zombo]

Some good stuff in here:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/06/red_wings_48.html

A few of my favorite excerpts:

Detroit Red Wings general manager Ken Holland said he would be willing to trade for a free agent's negotiating rights, something he has never done before.

“We'll do whatever we got to do that makes good business sense,'' Holland said. “When the opportunity presents itself, we have to be ready.''

The shallow free-agent pool could lead to more trade activity at the draft (June 22-23 in Pittsburgh). Holland said he's received a couple of exploratory calls from clubs.

“Most teams are where we're at, they're at the planning stages,'' Holland said.

“We went over players that may be available through trade, either from what we've heard through rumors or based on conversations I've had with other people,'' Holland said. “It's really just a lot of preparation, so when things finally present themselves I know what our people are thinking."

All in all, nothing new really. But still worth reading.

[Richdg]

If you read the story, that was from an interview that waddel did with Holland. those are quotes, not some writers opinions.

Now onto the list of questions....

1. we have 21 on the roster. Holland wants to add 5 or so new players. That makes 26. Roster is limited to 23. 3 need to go. Yes a Nyquist could go down to GR. same with Mcdonald. In theory emmerton and mursak. That would open up the roster space.
2. the idea of trading for rights has some merit. but who do you trade for those rights? Say it is now June 25th and the devils realiaze they can't resign parise. they decide to trade his rights. Who do we offer, that will keep us from being outbid? Where are the trade pieces?
3. if you let Quincey walk, which is an option, you have to get 2 UFA's to sign. there is no guarente that will happen, or if it does that we end up with someone better than Quincey. For example. is 31 year old Jackman better than Quincey, and who much more would we have to pay to get him?
4. Right now i am less interested in the names of players, we can all come up with long lists of personnel fav's that could help. The far more interesting part is the how do we get player x, y, and x etc.....

[SwedeLundin77]

If you read the story, that was from an interview that waddel did with Holland. those are quotes, not some writers opinions.

Now onto the list of questions....

1. we have 21 on the roster. Holland wants to add 5 or so new players. That makes 26. Roster is limited to 23. 3 need to go. Yes a Nyquist could go down to GR. same with Mcdonald. In theory emmerton and mursak. That would open up the roster space.
2. the idea of trading for rights has some merit. but who do you trade for those rights? Say it is now June 25th and the devils realiaze they can't resign parise. they decide to trade his rights. Who do we offer, that will keep us from being outbid? Where are the trade pieces?
3. if you let Quincey walk, which is an option, you have to get 2 UFA's to sign. there is no guarente that will happen, or if it does that we end up with someone better than Quincey. For example. is 31 year old Jackman better than Quincey, and who much more would we have to pay to get him?
4. Right now i am less interested in the names of players, we can all come up with long lists of personnel fav's that could help. The far more interesting part is the how do we get player x, y, and x etc.....

I think typically when you trade for rights, it takes a middle round draft pick or something similar to that. I don't think we'll be trading roster players or anything.

[Richdg]

I think typically when you trade for rights, it takes a middle round draft pick or something similar to that. I don't think we'll be trading roster players or anything.

it depends on the wants of the selling team, and the bids of the other teams involved. if you are NJ and you can't sign parise, is a 3rd round pick all you would take? is a single 1st round pick enough? if the Rw were to say offer Emmerton and Mursak, is that enough for you? I would think that any team trying to trade for rights is going to make the trade contingent on the player signing. Otherwise why would you do it? Now there is also the possibility of trading for a guy or 2 that are UFA's next season. Of which there is a long list, and their value is a little lower than normal because they could walk soon. Then there are the RFA's. There are always good players inline for big raises that teams just don't wan to pay for, or can't pay for. The sens forward Folingo (spelling) is an example. he has worked himself into position to get 3+ million. can they afford to keep him at that rate?

[FlashyG]

If you read the story, that was from an interview that waddel did with Holland. those are quotes, not some writers opinions.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? its absolutely Waddell's opinion, unless you can produce a link to Hollands comments.

Link

I'm fairly certain this is the article/blog you're talking about. Its George Malik using a Dave Waddell interview for the Windsor Star as the basis for his opinion piece.

The portions in big quotes aren't quotes from Holland, they are the portions that Malik has borrowed from Waddell's article. The quotes from Holland are in small quotations within the borrowed material.

At no point does he say we need X number of players, or what type of players we'd need. Just that he's open to exploring the trade market for the right players rights, that Joey MacDonald will be healthy next year, that he wants the team to be deeper and a little different and that he always feels pressure.

[Richdg]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? its absolutely Waddell's opinion, unless you can produce a link to Hollands comments.

Link

I'm fairly certain this is the article/blog you're talking about. Its George Malik using a Dave Waddell interview for the Windsor Star as the basis for his opinion piece.

The portions in big quotes aren't quotes from Holland, they are the portions that Malik has borrowed from Waddell's article. The quotes from Holland are in small quotations within the borrowed material.

At no point does he say we need X number of players, or what type of players we'd need. Just that he's open to exploring the trade market for the right players rights, that Joey MacDonald will be healthy next year, that he wants the team to be deeper and a little different and that he always feels pressure.

Listen not going to get into the quality of reporting in todays media. When things are quoted, the sourcing is terrible. so if I am wrong, so be it. But there have been other posts on this very forum over the past month saying the same thing, being attributed to Holland. Does it really matter if it is 4 or 5 players? Not at all. from day 1 it has been backup goalie, top 6 forward, bottom 6 forward with grit, and a top dman. The only real change was a second top dman.

[kipwinger]

I can honestly see the Wings standing pat with 2 defensemen and a top six forward, and addressing any additional issues at the trade deadline. There's no real reason to run out and spend money on a backup goalie or bottom six forward when either of those things could be had with very little effort later on. Then again, I could be totally wrong, but I certainly won't be surprised if Holland only makes a couple of moves. Especially if any of those moves involves picking up high end talent.

Edited by kipwinger, 06 June 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[rick zombo]

If you read the story, that was from an interview that waddel did with Holland. those are quotes, not some writers opinions.

If you're referring to the quotes I highlighted from the mlive article above then part of the quotes are the writer's editorial comments and the parts inside the little " " things are direct quotes from Holland, just to clarify.

Edited by rick zombo, 06 June 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[rick zombo]

I can honestly see the Wings standing pat with 2 defensemen and a top six forward, and addressing any additional issues at the trade deadline. There's no real reason to run out and spend money on a backup goalie or bottom six forward when either of those things could be had with very little effort later on. Then again, I could be totally wrong, but I certainly won't be surprised if Holland only makes a couple of moves. Especially if any of those moves involves picking up high end talent.

Normally, this would be Holland's style for sure. But becuase of increasing parity and given the price last spring for Guastad and considering that a guy like Moen wasn't even moved at all, I could see Holland addressing this need sometime this summer.

What I could see Holland doing is aggressively going aftre the 2 defensemen and a top six forward on July 1st, then waiting for bargains later in the summer to fill the back-up goalie position and get that bottom six grinder.

[mmamolo]

it depends on the wants of the selling team, and the bids of the other teams involved. if you are NJ and you can't sign parise, is a 3rd round pick all you would take? is a single 1st round pick enough? if the Rw were to say offer Emmerton and Mursak, is that enough for you? I would think that any team trying to trade for rights is going to make the trade contingent on the player signing. Otherwise why would you do it? Now there is also the possibility of trading for a guy or 2 that are UFA's next season. Of which there is a long list, and their value is a little lower than normal because they could walk soon. Then there are the RFA's. There are always good players inline for big raises that teams just don't wan to pay for, or can't pay for. The sens forward Folingo (spelling) is an example. he has worked himself into position to get 3+ million. can they afford to keep him at that rate?

Wrong - I cannot remember one trade that involved a players rights prior to free agency that was contingent on signing.

There have been some where the compensation would change if the player did or did not sign but the eve nif the player did not sign with the team there was some compensation going to the player's original team. That is why we saw Dan Hamhuis' rights get traded twice in one off season a couple summers ago.

[kipwinger]

Normally, this would be Holland's style for sure. But becuase of increasing parity and given the price last spring for Guastad and considering that a guy like Moen wasn't even moved at all, I could see Holland addressing this need sometime this summer.

What I could see Holland doing is aggressively going aftre the 2 defensemen and a top six forward on July 1st, then waiting for bargains later in the summer to fill the back-up goalie position and get that bottom six grinder.

Yeah, that definitely makes a lot of sense. You're right about the Gaustad and Moen thing, and I really didn't think about that.