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ogreslayer

Nashville to trade Suter's rights?

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I just don't understand this.

Why would anyone trade a 3rd round pick plus another player just for the rights to talk to someone before July 1st? There is no guarantee that they will be signed. A more logical thing would be a scrub player like the one we got from San Jose, and then a 7th round pick if we sign the player.

You kind of hit it in the last part of your comment. Because you can make either the pick and/or the player conditional on signing. Like in the Stuart rights trade, the pick only changes hands if Stuart signs with SJ. If not, the best the Wings did was get a player that will be a depth add to GR.

As far as that package for Suter, given that C'bus flipped a 5th rounder to Montreal for the rights to Wisniewski last year, I think a 3rd for Suter is more than fair. As to Ferraro, given his last 2 sub-par years in juniors & an underwhelming run in GR so far, I would have absolutely no problem seeing him flipped to Nashville as compensation if the Wings sign Suter early. At this point, I don't ever see him making an impact with the big club if he even makes it at all.

Edited by ogreslayer

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He's not A complete moron, he's going to July 1st.

This. He'd be a complete dumbass to not at least see what's out there on July 1st. Unless his rights get traded to the team he wanted all along (like us :D ).

esteef

Edited by esteef

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Poile only trades with Holmgren so I expect Suter's right to be dealt to the Flyers. However it does not mean he will sign there. He will still sign with the Wings on July 1st. Same with Parise. :thumbup:

Rick D likes this

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You kind of hit it in the last part of your comment. Because you can make either the pick and/or the player conditional on signing. Like in the Stuart rights trade, the pick only changes hands if Stuart signs with SJ. If not, the best the Wings did was get a player that will be a depth add to GR.

As far as that package for Suter, given that C'bus flipped a 5th rounder to Montreal for the rights to Wisniewski last year, I think a 3rd for Suter is more than fair. As to Ferraro, given his last 2 sub-par years in juniors & an underwhelming run in GR so far, I would have absolutely no problem seeing him flipped to Nashville as compensation if the Wings sign Suter early. At this point, I don't ever see him making an impact with the big club if he even makes it at all.

A 3rd is a steep price to pay, but I would bite if the 3rd was conditional to us signing him.

As for Ferraro, he had one complete season in GR and is still an unknown commodity. I think he is good trade bait for getting his rights initially. Definitely not the "scrub" I was thinking about though. We got a total scrub in the deal with Stuart. Ferraro is a much better prospect so we better get a deal done if we trade him.

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I just don't understand this.

Why would anyone trade a 3rd round pick plus another player just for the rights to talk to someone before July 1st? There is no guarantee that they will be signed. A more logical thing would be a scrub player like the one we got from San Jose, and then a 7th round pick if we sign the player.

Ummmm, because that will show that Holland is being as aggressive as humanly possible to make this team competitive.

Wont you be furious if it comes out that suter told poile that the only teams on his list are the flyers and the red wings, and that Holland had the opportunity to acquire his rights for a 2nd but thought that the 'price was too high,' and philly makes the move instead and subsequently signs suter? I think lgw would probably implode.

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Ummmm, because that will show that Holland is being as aggressive as humanly possible to make this team competitive.

Wont you be furious if it comes out that suter told poile that the only teams on his list are the flyers and the red wings, and that Holland had the opportunity to acquire his rights for a 2nd but thought that the 'price was too high,' and philly makes the move instead and subsequently signs suter? I think lgw would probably implode.

First off, in that situation you are not going to hear about the negotiations in that kind of detail.

Second, if Poile were given that ultimatum, he would go to both Philly and the Red Wings and ask what they would be willing give up and create a bidding war between them.

Lastly, neither team would be willing to "trade for the negotiation rights" for a second round pick. Now, they would be willing to trade for a 7th round pick and if Suter is signed, then the pick elevates to a 2nd round pick. As history has shown us, just because their rights are traded doesn't mean they are a "shoo in" to be signed by that team.

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First off, in that situation you are not going to hear about the negotiations in that kind of detail.

Second, if Poile were given that ultimatum, he would go to both Philly and the Red Wings and ask what they would be willing give up and create a bidding war between them.

Lastly, neither team would be willing to "trade for the negotiation rights" for a second round pick. Now, they would be willing to trade for a 7th round pick and if Suter is signed, then the pick elevates to a 2nd round pick. As history has shown us, just because their rights are traded doesn't mean they are a "shoo in" to be signed by that team.

And you know this because you have contacts in both front offices? If Poile "creates a bidding war" wouldn't that be more than possible?

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And you know this because you have contacts in both front offices? If Poile "creates a bidding war" wouldn't that be more than possible?

Read this first, and then let me know what you think. It is reasons like this why you won't see this escalate to anything better than a 3rd round pick. If it does, no team will bite because of the risks in the past.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/06/08/the-risk-of-trading-for-negotiating-rights/

From the article...

"There’s considerable risk whenever an NHL general manager moves to acquire an impending unrestricted free agent’s rights. There’s next to zero guarantee that the player being coveted will sign with his temporary home, unless an informal agreement is brokered in advance, and even though it’s usually fringe prospects or mid-round draft picks going the other way – teams are giving SOMETHING up for little more than a head start at snatching up a player looking for a raise."

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Read this first, and then let me know what you think. It is reasons like this why you won't see this escalate to anything better than a 3rd round pick. If it does, no team will bite because of the risks in the past.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/06/08/the-risk-of-trading-for-negotiating-rights/

From the article...

"There’s considerable risk whenever an NHL general manager moves to acquire an impending unrestricted free agent’s rights. There’s next to zero guarantee that the player being coveted will sign with his temporary home, unless an informal agreement is brokered in advance, and even though it’s usually fringe prospects or mid-round draft picks going the other way – teams are giving SOMETHING up for little more than a head start at snatching up a player looking for a raise."

One man's opinion, not gospel, and that man is not an NHL GM. Again, you can't ignore the fact that inclusion of picks/players can be made conditional upon signing. So yes, I think with a generally weak UFA pool this year, it is entirely possible that a package for Suter's rights could turn into something as big as a 2nd round pick+prospect conditional on Suter signing. And who's to say that there won't be a GM that will consider the risk worth it by making a package like that non-conditional. Who here thought that Ville Leino was worth $4.5m a year for 5 years, yet Darcy Regier still took on the risk of signing him. Personally, I never discount humanity's desperation & stupidity when it comes to risk/reward decisions.

For other examples of botched risk/reward decisions, see: DiPietro, Rick; Lecavalier, Vinny; and I'm sure many here would add Franzen, Johan

Edited by ogreslayer

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One man's opinion, not gospel, and that man is not an NHL GM. Again, you can't ignore the fact that inclusion of picks/players can be made conditional upon signing. So yes, I think with a generally weak UFA pool this year, it is entirely possible that a package for Suter's rights could turn into something as big as a 2nd round pick+prospect conditional on Suter signing. And who's to say that there won't be a GM that will consider the risk worth it by making a package like that non-conditional. Who here thought that Ville Leino was worth $4.5m a year for 5 years, yet Darcy Regier still took on the risk of signing him. Personally, I never discount humanity's desperation & stupidity when it comes to risk/reward decisions.

For other examples of botched risk/reward decisions, see: DiPietro, Rick; Lecavalier, Vinny; and I'm sure many here would add Franzen, Johan

Very true. I guess if one GM is stupid enough to give away a 2nd round pick for negotiating rights, that is fine. As for the track record of signing free agents, how many wings fans would be pissed of if Holland did that and didn't get a deal done? People would be lining up to flame Holland for spending the 2nd round pick for nothing.

The best thing anyone can do is look at the track record and make a judgement call. Would you be willing to give away a 2nd round pick with no guarantee to sign Suter? I would hesitate before making that decision. It better be a situation where my team is the place he says he wants to go before I make that decision.

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Very true. I guess if one GM is stupid enough to give away a 2nd round pick for negotiating rights, that is fine. As for the track record of signing free agents, how many wings fans would be pissed of if Holland did that and didn't get a deal done? People would be lining up to flame Holland for spending the 2nd round pick for nothing.

The best thing anyone can do is look at the track record and make a judgement call. Would you be willing to give away a 2nd round pick with no guarantee to sign Suter? I would hesitate before making that decision. It better be a situation where my team is the place he says he wants to go before I make that decision.

I wouldnt be upset at all. At least I would know for certain that Holland did everything in his power to make it happen.

Also, the only reason that the most highly coveted UFA defenceman could be had for only a 2nd is because of the uncertainty. If Poile did a sign and trade, he would receive a 1st, 2nd, roster player and prospects.

Finally, if we did get Suter for a 2nd and it doesnt work out, whats to stop Holland from trading his rights to somebody else for their 2nd?

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Very true. I guess if one GM is stupid enough to give away a 2nd round pick for negotiating rights, that is fine. As for the track record of signing free agents, how many wings fans would be pissed of if Holland did that and didn't get a deal done? People would be lining up to flame Holland for spending the 2nd round pick for nothing.

The best thing anyone can do is look at the track record and make a judgement call. Would you be willing to give away a 2nd round pick with no guarantee to sign Suter? I would hesitate before making that decision. It better be a situation where my team is the place he says he wants to go before I make that decision.

How many Wings fans would be pissed if say theoretically the Flyers did flip a 2nd rounder to Nashville for Suter's rights & he ended up signing there? I can imagine the pitchforks & torches and cries of "Don't give me the cost was too high crap again" already. If I were in Kenny's shoes, which clearly I'm not, yes I would want some sort of confidence most likely in the form of having one of those "it's really not tampering, I was just having a pleasant coversation with a player's agent" conversation prior to pulling the trigger if having the quality of the pick being conditional on signing isn't an option.

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How many Wings fans would be pissed if say theoretically the Flyers did flip a 2nd rounder to Nashville for Suter's rights & he ended up signing there? I can imagine the pitchforks & torches and cries of "Don't give me the cost was too high crap again" already. If I were in Kenny's shoes, which clearly I'm not, yes I would want some sort of confidence most likely in the form of having one of those "it's really not tampering, I was just having a pleasant coversation with a player's agent" conversation prior to pulling the trigger if having the quality of the pick being conditional on signing isn't an option.

Look at the history revolving around negotiating rights and Dan Hamhuis. When he was traded to Pittsburgh for a 3rd round pick, the Pens thought at the time he would be a slam dunk to sign. As it turned out, he went to Vancouver and rumor had it he took less money at the time to play there.

As you mentioned in your last couple sentences, trading away a 2nd or 3rd round pick with no guarantee is not easy to swallow. Even you cannot guarantee you would do it, so what makes you think Holland would? You are approaching it like a GM should approach it. Make the pick a 7th rounder if the player can't be signed. Making it 2nd or 3rd round guaranteed with no guarantee you are going to sign the player is a risky proposition and due to backfire.

Otherwise, I do agree with you. If the Flyers did give a 2nd round pick to Suters rights and he signed there, then they may rebel against Holland. At the same time though, those deals are typically done under the table, and most Wings fans would just know that is where Suter wanted to go at that stage and the Preds just wanted a draft pick for him.

I wouldnt be upset at all. At least I would know for certain that Holland did everything in his power to make it happen.

Also, the only reason that the most highly coveted UFA defenceman could be had for only a 2nd is because of the uncertainty. If Poile did a sign and trade, he would receive a 1st, 2nd, roster player and prospects.

Finally, if we did get Suter for a 2nd and it doesnt work out, whats to stop Holland from trading his rights to somebody else for their 2nd?

Just based on the history of trading for rights to sign, I believe that these deals are done before the sign and trade happens. Very few teams would be willing to trade for the rights of a player that the player has no interest in signing there. Look at the Bryzgalov trade for a 3rd rounder last season. That deal was in the bag before the signing happened. Look at the Stuart trade this year for a 7th rounder. San Jose has his rights, but his chances of signing there are 33% as there are the Kings and Ducks to still be in the running.

As for your final point, with 2.5 weeks left before he becomes a UFA, most teams Holland would try to deal with would probably just wait until July 1st at this stage. Why spend for a pick when you can just wait it out. Besides, at that point, Suter may be seen as difficult if the Wings couldn't get him, so why spend a pick on a player that is just hunting for a contract?

You are right though, anything is possible.

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Just thinking out loud with a little "Monday Morning QBing" thrown in:

Let's say, knowing what we know now in terms of the Red Wings' playoff performance, that Holland DID trade Brad Stuart to the Rangers for the rumored 2nd and 3rd round picks, and now had them at this disposal.

How willingly do you think he'd be in using them as rights ammunition for for Suter and Parise? A bit different without them, especially since you're already missing your 1st.

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Just thinking out loud with a little "Monday Morning QBing" thrown in:

Let's say, knowing what we know now in terms of the Red Wings' playoff performance, that Holland DID trade Brad Stuart to the Rangers for the rumored 2nd and 3rd round picks, and now had them at this disposal.

How willingly do you think he'd be in using them as rights ammunition for for Suter and Parise? A bit different without them, especially since you're already missing your 1st.

Maybe EJ or Billy Pidto will ask him about all of this on NHL Live today. Just saw the tweet that Kenny's supposed to be on today.

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Just thinking out loud with a little "Monday Morning QBing" thrown in:

Let's say, knowing what we know now in terms of the Red Wings' playoff performance, that Holland DID trade Brad Stuart to the Rangers for the rumored 2nd and 3rd round picks, and now had them at this disposal.

How willingly do you think he'd be in using them as rights ammunition for for Suter and Parise? A bit different without them, especially since you're already missing your 1st.

Damn you Matt! :D

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If you trust the sources being thrown around on twitter, Suter is telling the team that he doesn't want to play in certain places such as Philly.

Many of these sources also place Detroit on the top of his list. I still think who ever trades for him will have a decent shot at signing him, especially if it is the Wild. I don't see the Preds trading to the Wild or the Wings as they would be new division rivals.

Watch out for the Kings to make the deal for Suter and Parise. They could pay both 8 million for life and only lose Stoll in the process. They also still have one of the most stocked AHL clubs and have the ammo.

I am hoping that both Parise and Suter tell the teams they wont sign with anyone prior to july 1. Not just for us, but it will make the entire free agency process better, and will improve our chances at signing second choices and keeping our pipeline going.

The only trade I would consider at this point is Quincey's rights for Suter's.

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If you trust the sources being thrown around on twitter, Suter is telling the team that he doesn't want to play in certain places such as Philly.

Many of these sources also place Detroit on the top of his list. I still think who ever trades for him will have a decent shot at signing him, especially if it is the Wild. I don't see the Preds trading to the Wild or the Wings as they would be new division rivals.

Watch out for the Kings to make the deal for Suter and Parise. They could pay both 8 million for life and only lose Stoll in the process. They also still have one of the most stocked AHL clubs and have the ammo.

I am hoping that both Parise and Suter tell the teams they wont sign with anyone prior to july 1. Not just for us, but it will make the entire free agency process better, and will improve our chances at signing second choices and keeping our pipeline going.

The only trade I would consider at this point is Quincey's rights for Suter's.

Keep in mind that Kings will need to resign Quick next season, who could get Rinne-kind of contract.

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If you trust the sources being thrown around on twitter, Suter is telling the team that he doesn't want to play in certain places such as Philly.

Many of these sources also place Detroit on the top of his list. I still think who ever trades for him will have a decent shot at signing him, especially if it is the Wild. I don't see the Preds trading to the Wild or the Wings as they would be new division rivals.

Watch out for the Kings to make the deal for Suter and Parise. They could pay both 8 million for life and only lose Stoll in the process. They also still have one of the most stocked AHL clubs and have the ammo.

I am hoping that both Parise and Suter tell the teams they wont sign with anyone prior to july 1. Not just for us, but it will make the entire free agency process better, and will improve our chances at signing second choices and keeping our pipeline going.

The only trade I would consider at this point is Quincey's rights for Suter's.

The Kings are already fairly well stacked at D, and they don't have any free agents on the blueline. I'm not so sure that they'd be major players in the Suter sweepstakes. Parise, definitely.

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Right now, I trade Mursak, J. Andersson, 5th round pick for this Parise Rights guy...

Nashville won't trade us Suter Rights, but someone else may. Orchastrate a deal with someone to trade for Suter Rights and then trade Kindl, <prospect>, 3rd round pick to them.....Then we have the Rights Brothers all to us!

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I do not understand why players in the situation that Suter and Parise are in right now do not take more control of their future. If they are not going to resign with their current teams, they should just say "I'm not signing anywhere until 7/1 so don't trade for my rights." Most likely, both of these guys will be signing deals for the remainder, or at the very least the vast majority of the rest of their careers. Why would they want to hurt the franchise they will spend the rest of their career with right off the bat? They are in the driver's seat.

Majsheppard likes this

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Keep in mind that Kings will need to resign Quick next season, who could get Rinne-kind of contract.

Could? Will. Quick is a Stanley Cup champion and Conn Smythe Trophy winner. He'll get more than Rinne.

--

As for the others... I'm convinced Suter will sign here, no matter who he has his rights traded to. I wouldn't even consider trading for the rights if I'm Ken Holland. The red carpet is practically rolled out from here to Nashville. The situation couldn't be presented any clearer to Suter as it is.

Parise, though? That's a rights-trade I would absolutely consider. If I were to wager a guess I'd say Holland and Co. is confident in nabbing Suter, but it may help snagging Parise's rights before July 1 to not only know you've got him and won't get into a bidding war after July 1, but you've got Zach signed, Suter's going to sign with you, too -- and now you've got a very clear idea of what kind of cap space you've got left, what assets you have left to use as trade bait, etc., VERY early in the UFA-frenzy. Especially if you're looking for a big 4th-line body (Gaustad?) or another 2nd-tier defenseman (Garrison, etc..)

That's gold, in my mind.

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