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FireCaptain

Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?

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Ownership offered, and will pay, two-hundred-and-fourteen million to one player, paid over a shorter period of time. No difference whatsoever.

Is this baseball you're talking about? Salary cap free baseball?

Rebound likes this

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Who WOULDN'T want to be overpaid? I certainly would.

Therein lies part of my original post - are the days of the 'Detroit Discount' over with? Has Motown lost its swagger? Can Detroit continue to compete for players when they refuse to overpay them even though they know somebody will?

That was part of my original question and yet everyone keeps getting lost in Holland bashing and Parise/Suter. This is a larger concept than just those 2 free agents.

I think you missed a lot what was said. They both wanted to play in Minn....home town..playing in front of their family and friends.....Like Holland said Detroit was not their home. That's why they didn't sign with Detroit. Had nothing to do with the wings losing their shine or any of that.

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AGAIN, look at the larger concept and NOT the Parise/Suter deal. I know they wanted to play together close to home.

I think you missed a lot what was said. They both wanted to play in Minn....home town..playing in front of their family and friends.....Like Holland said Detroit was not their home. That's why they didn't sign with Detroit. Had nothing to do with the wings losing their shine or any of that.

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The past four days, I was actually surprised the Wings got as close to the finish line with either of these players. I think Suter and Parise both had a very heavy eye on going back home way before July 1st rolled around. It was going to take a mammoth effort/offer to get them to even look at other options. I think Parise played the re-signing with the Devils "card" out of respect and appreciation for his time spent there, but I don't think he ever intended to stay a Devil. Marty staying may have made him rethink for a nano second, but I think his mind was made up. Suter I believe the same. His talks with the Preds and Dave Poile were just out of respect. Heard on Sirius NHL this morning that Poile feels kind of the same way. Okay, so if they're not going to stay with their current teams, why not the Wings? I honestly believe what Kenny is saying is the main truth about this deal, and what both of the players are saying..."family wins". Wives and what is going to make them happy for the next 13 years, win. Mom and Dad-win. With parity in the NHL these days-any good team can win the Cup. So even if Kenny would have matched dollar for dollar...going home-Wins.

Again, I'm impressed that Kenny got an invitation from Suter and invited them into town last Friday to discuss. I believe the Wild decision in both their heads was a done deal....unless Detroit comes in and pulls their pants down with some outrageous offer that would be insane to turn down.

The Wings haven't lost their "luster", they just lost a deal(s) that they really didn't have a RESPONSIBLE shot at getting done. In fact....I think it's the Wings "luster", to the dismay of the Wild brass, that actually got Suter and Praise's heavy consideration....not to mention a face-to-face meeting at the 11th hour of the deal. So on Friday, where were all the other GM's that had very deep pockets and very high interest in Suter??? Not in Wisconsin.

my wife is calling me now...gotta head home.

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Ownership offered, and will pay, two-hundred-and-fourteen million to one player, paid over a shorter period of time. No difference whatsoever.

This is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. So, in effect, you're saying the Wings are "cheap" for not paying a player $24-million for these players when they did for a team in another sport they own? Or it'd be "cheap" if they didn't spend $30-million per year on a player because someone did with Joe Johnson in the NBA?

This is ludicrous on all fronts and I feel dumber having to even respond to it. What the Tigers do in baseball has had nothing to do with the Red Wings spending habits in hockey. Nothing.

Frozen-Man, Nightfall and Rebound like this

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Something tells me that signing Lidstrom this season was not an option. I don't think that you can reasonably lay that one at Holland's feet. Suter and Parise chose to go a non-contender. Schultz was not willing to consider non-Canadian teams.

Crym, Axe boy is an anti-Holland shill. He's new here & has 30 posts, most of which I've read are drumming up sentiment against Holland. Don't bother wasting your keystrokes.

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Except for an obvious troll or two and a wee bit of bent toward personal attacks, this thread stands out to me as a model for how hot subjects can and probably should be discussed on these boards. The majority of you are to be commended for sticking to facts and for attacking the argument instead of the person.

My take is that Holland is very good at his job - in fact one of the best at what he does. But parity is rearing its ugly but democratic head. About the only immediate consolation is that every team will ultimately be affected by it. It's painful to witness, but perspective and faith can be helpful.

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As I see it there are 2 factors that have lead to a tarnished image for free agents.

1. Fear. Teams used to fear playing the Wings. Not only was there talent on both ends of the ice but there were personnel that would punish you when they didn't have the puck. They would also fight when needed. I think this has been realized by evidence of the Tootoo signing, but I hope it doesn't stop there. Free agents are more attracted to a winning franchise that is feared.

2. Risk. Holland's fatal flaw is that he would rather go with a known commodity than take risks on either young players or signing a "risky" free agent. It was exciting to see Holland go after Hossa, but signing Hossa was not that risky of a proposition. It was also nice to see him go after the Minny Twins, but I'm glad we aren't saddled with 2 crippling contracts. This off season will force Holland out of his comfort zone & it remains to be seen if he'll pull it off. It will take risk to do whatever it takes, which is another element that will attract top tier UFA's.

I'm no Kenny Kool-Aid drinker but I think he will still make some significant changes to the roster. It's not over yet.

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It's called "revenue sharing". Same thing.

Your argument is absurd. We are speaking about baseball, not hockey, and revenue sharing and a salary cap are not repeat NOT the same thing!

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When specific player is chosen in the 1st round - then everybody is saying: that we couldn't trade down, when he's chosen lately - then everybody is saying: well there are 29 other teams which decided not to pick him...

I don't see your point.

Maybe 29 other teams have another needs to adress... Like Detroit need to adress TOUGHNESS but Kenny doesn't want to draft those kind of players, he want's to pick him through waivers...

I don't exactly know what you mean. This draft was six years ago.

Emmerton was (in best case) supposed to be 3rd line center - nothing more... unless we have problems with development of young players...

You are completely incorrect. Emmerton was the tenth-ranked North American prospect. Going into the draft, he was most certainly expected to be better than a third-line center in the NHL. He just turned out poorly. As for the Wings having problems with the development of young players... *laugh*.

And I see I got no response to the whole Hudler/Ericsson vs Bogosian affair. Aren't you even going to admit that you were wrong? And why, in the first place, would you have believed that Atlanta would have traded a young, promising, up-and-coming defenseman for a not-as-good defenseman who was a pending UFA and a one-dimensional, undersized forward having the worst season of his career? It seems like you're looking for any reason, no matter how outlandish, to bash Holland.

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They also made the Finals 3 yrs ago and were 1 game away from another Cup..Sorry but just because 2 over rated and now over paid players decided to join a crappy team In Minni does not mean the Red Wings are all of a sudden a 2nd tier franchise.

Yep, they did make the finals three years ago. What have they done since? For three years Holland has ignored the type of game being played on the ice. That is why the Wings are not as attractive to players anymore. I would argue that the Wings are a 2nd tier team, on their way to a 3rd tier.

Edited by pondrocket

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Go back & take a look at Sammy's comments from a couple of days ago about how he never wanted to leave in '09 & how glad he is to be back. Look at Tootoo's & Gustavsson's comments about how they felt when Kenny reached out to both of them about coming to Detroit. Just because 2 UFAs decided they would rather play somewhere else is more a reflection on them than it is on the Detroit Red Wings organ-i-zation imo.

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Ken Holland is the GM. Scotty Bowman was the Head Coach. I have no idea what you're suggesting.

It's like saying, what has The Colonel done for me recently? He sucks, his herbs and spices suck. It's been around for too long with no change. The Twister didn't work, etc, etc, etc. He doesn't know what he's doing. The manager in KFC Tokyo branch is their success.

They do completely different jobs, which neither could swap and do half as well.

Murray was the GM when the Wings began to be respectable again. Bowaman was the GM when the built the winner, Bowman gave the day to day GM to Holland & stayed coach. Nothing happened without Bowman giving it the OK as long as he was there. Illitch trusted him.

As I see it there are 2 factors that have lead to a tarnished image for free agents.

1. Fear. Teams used to fear playing the Wings. Not only was there talent on both ends of the ice but there were personnel that would punish you when they didn't have the puck. They would also fight when needed. I think this has been realized by evidence of the Tootoo signing, but I hope it doesn't stop there. Free agents are more attracted to a winning franchise that is feared.

2. Risk. Holland's fatal flaw is that he would rather go with a known commodity than take risks on either young players or signing a "risky" free agent. It was exciting to see Holland go after Hossa, but signing Hossa was not that risky of a proposition. It was also nice to see him go after the Minny Twins, but I'm glad we aren't saddled with 2 crippling contracts. This off season will force Holland out of his comfort zone & it remains to be seen if he'll pull it off. It will take risk to do whatever it takes, which is another element that will attract top tier UFA's.

I'm no Kenny Kool-Aid drinker but I think he will still make some significant changes to the roster. It's not over yet.

I am hopeful that you are right. He did all that he could for Sutter. I don't fault him for that. Let's see what he does. He is on the clock!

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Hindsights a beautiful thing ...

ExActly!!! Everyone had a hard on for franz over Hossa. If Kenny gave up some picks and youth for a defensman after the 08 cup people would have flipped their s***!!!

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Yep, they did make the finals three years ago. What have they done since? For three years Holland has ignored the type of game being played on the ice. That is why the Wings are not as attractive to players anymore. I would argue that the Wings are a 2nd tier team, on their way to a 3rd tier.

Gee I don't know had 3 consecutive 100+ Point seasons, won a Division title..You can't win the Cup every season, Some of you guys are a bunch of whinny spoiled brats.

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Between you and me +/- $8M for 13 years... does it really make a difference (when you already have $90M) ?!

You're talking 8 million dollars. Thats not exactly pocket change. Of course it matters.

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Gee I don't know had 3 consecutive 100+ Point seasons, won a Division title..You can't win the Cup every season, Some of you guys are a bunch of whinny spoiled brats.

What good is the regular season if you are not competative in the playoffs. I would prefer to be competative when it matters most.

Edited by pondrocket

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What good is the regular season if you are not competative in the playoffs. I would prefer to be competative when it matters most.

This is exactly why Hudler had to go. He was constantly pushed around in the Nashville series & proved to be ineffective because of his size. The regular season is completely different. Even if the Wings don't get big the pieces together to make a cup run this year, I'll be happy if they become physically much tougher to play against. Bring back the aura they had in 97 & 98 please.

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Seriously? It's called 'saying all the right things'. Would you get signed to a team and say, "Hell no, I don't want to go there and take their money."?

No one would be foolish enough to bite the hand that is feeding them... well, Rick Nash (or any other player demanding a trade) might.. haha

And AGAIN, this issue is LARGER than Parise/Suter and really doesn't even pertain to the them as they had other reasons for not choosing Detroit. However,

all things being equal, there's a strong possibility that the Detroit of old would have been able to overcome the 4 hour driving distance from Madison to Detroit vs. Madison to Minneapolis.

If people are open-minded enough to step back and look, a trend is starting to develop within the last few years.

Go back & take a look at Sammy's comments from a couple of days ago about how he never wanted to leave in '09 & how glad he is to be back. Look at Tootoo's & Gustavsson's comments about how they felt when Kenny reached out to both of them about coming to Detroit. Just because 2 UFAs decided they would rather play somewhere else is more a reflection on them than it is on the Detroit Red Wings organ-i-zation imo.

Edited by FireCaptain

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As has always been true with the Red Wings, the support for this team is a mile wide and an inch thick, now that the decline has begun, the bandwagon is is getting a whole lot lighter.

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This says it all. We all knew when Lids was turning 40, and he had another possible year, max. Holland had YEARS to prepare for this, and what did he do? He seems a little lost in the salary cap era, now that the Wings' stars from the pre-cap days are gone.

He had years to prepare for it but not years of cap space to make it a reality. He needed the money allocated to Lidstrom to pay for Lids replacement, which he couldn't have until Lids retired.

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He had years to prepare for it but not years of cap space to make it a reality. He needed the money allocated to Lidstrom to pay for Lids replacement, which he couldn't have until Lids retired.

There's a lot of truth to this.

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As has always been true with the Red Wings, the support for this team is a mile wide and an inch thick, now that the decline has begun, the bandwagon is is getting a whole lot lighter.

I see your point, but I don't see it that way. I see a fan base concerned, maybe angry & maybe a little anxious. I think it reveals connection to the organization & the sport. You never hear from the customers that just stop paying attention. Also, the offseason is yet anotyer season within the game. I love this part of the season.

I have disagreed with KH over the last three years, for sure. I still love & follow the wings & I will long after Kenny is managing Disney on ice.

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