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FireCaptain

Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?

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It's looks to me as if they decided a while ago to play on the same team. Detroit doesn't have enough space for both of them with the money they got. I would give Weber this contract, not Suter or Parise.

Edited by Jaymister

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Holland sucks. Simple as that. Rafalski was signed too long, Holmstrom was a disaster, bertuzzi is a disaster, samuelsson is a disaster, hudler didnt need to be here, etc., etc., etc. Holland doesnt know what hes doing. Scotty Bowman was our success.

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Holland sucks. Simple as that. Rafalski was signed too long, Holmstrom was a disaster, bertuzzi is a disaster, samuelsson is a disaster, hudler didnt need to be here, etc., etc., etc. Holland doesnt know what hes doing. Scotty Bowman was our success.

Ken Holland is the GM. Scotty Bowman was the Head Coach. I have no idea what you're suggesting.

It's like saying, what has The Colonel done for me recently? He sucks, his herbs and spices suck. It's been around for too long with no change. The Twister didn't work, etc, etc, etc. He doesn't know what he's doing. The manager in KFC Tokyo branch is their success.

They do completely different jobs, which neither could swap and do half as well.

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I don't think their decisions were an indication of Detroit not being the "in place", I think it had more to do with the fact that they wanted to be close to home and play together. There's really nothing we could have done in this situation since that was their plan. I'll be interested to know what their plan will be in 5 years when the team has only made the playoffs twice, Parise is barely reaching 30 goals a year, and they feel the way Rick Nash feels now. Maybe signing a long term deal with a franchise that hasn't done anything in the last 10 years wasn't such a good idea after all.

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I must be fooling myself then because this team is always appealing to me. But that's only because I support them and will during thick and thin. They may not be as successful in years to come but I'll still love watching them and will still cheer every goal and wish them to do well each and every night. That's what I understand as 'appealing'.

I think we'll be ok, maybe not as dominating as we've been in the past, but come on, we're not the Thrashers here.

Way to take things out of context, man!

In this thread, it was obviously meant as being appealing to free agents and players. The way I view the team is no different and never has been and never will be.

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Way to take things out of context, man!

In this thread, it was obviously meant as being appealing to free agents and players. The way I view the team is no different and never has been and never will be.

Apologies! Very difficult to gain context on these sorts of things. Reading it back now, I completely see where you are coming from with regards to free agents finding the Wings appealing. My bad.

Yet I do think we're still an appealing team for players to come to as we're incredibly well run, not simply from a business standpoint but also from one that means at every level within the organisation it's a pleasure to work at. I think that means a lot to the majority of players, but of course other teams will hold that special extra something for other players.

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I know the fans have. The comments I saw on the Parise and Suter threads after they picked the Wild were way offside, they were free agents who owe us nothing for gosh sakes.

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4. What would you have done to prepare for Lidströms retirement?

Save for Burns who went to the Sharks there was absolutely no one outthere, to improve this defense last year!

.

More about Burns? Really!?

Why aren't people seeing the irony of people ripping the Wild left and right today, while praising Burns, who was their #1 defenseman for years while the team did nothing for years? Burns' concussion problems were as severe as Crosby's! He's an exciting player, but he pinches and gets caught constantly.

There was nothing more Kenny could have done to get Parise and Suter. Let's talk about the next move and evaluate it after we know what it is.

Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

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It isn't all doom and gloom like some think it is. Will there be growing pains this season? Most certainly. But the Wings are still a team that will make the playoffs. With the right moves along the way, anything can happen. There is a long summer ahead of us yet.

Sure we need some luck on our side. But we are by no means on the way out. Go for an above average shut down defenseman, and trade for a high end top 6 winger, and we'll be fine. Healthy seasons from Eaves, Cleary, and Sammy can possibly each get the Wings 20+ goals. Give Smith a chance to log 20+ minutes and let him grow. Other teams give their kids a chance and it pays off. Why can't it for us? Quincey will be better starting with us right from camp. Ericsson will be better. Kronwall has been known to step it up in Lidstroms absence, so he'll need to be great for us to. Sure a lot of things need to go right, but it isn;t the end of the world. Kronwall/Smith/White will be on the PP. Let E/Quincey/Sammy duel it out for that final PP point man. Focus on the PK for now. MAybe the Monster will settle in nicely and have a breakout year in the NHL. IF not, a healthy Howard playing like the first half of last year will steal us games. I like our tandem there.

Tootoo as a wreckingball will rub off on guys like Abby, Ericsson and Eaves. It will make us tougher to play aginst. Has the team gotten worse than last season? Yes. But we'll be a different team. And as long as they are tougher to play against, things can work out fine.

If guys stay healthy, we'll have a lot more depth up front than last season. The D did take an obvious hit. With Suter they wouldn't fully recover from that. The focus now should be one guy who can log a lot of PK minutes to improve us there. Landing a Nash or a Ryan will make us deadly up front. A couple moves and we'll have no trouble being in the playoff picture. Wait until the trade deadline to pick up that defenseman to put them over the top.

There is a lot of talent on this team, and a lot of pride. They will not just roll over and die. Kronwall, Filppula, Ericsson, Nyquist, Eaves, Cleary, and Smith will all need to have bigger impacts this coming season. And there is also a whole lot of summer to go yet.

Look at LA. they were barely in it all season long, made a couple moves at the deadline, and cruised their way to the cup. I'm never gonna give up on the Wings. And I am confident that come the end of the season, the pieces will be in place to make a decent run of it. Sure a lot of things need to go their way. But this is the Detroitf****** Red Wings we're talking about here. End rant.

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(I posted this in another thread about Holland, but it might be more relevant here.)

I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.

Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.

You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd have his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.

I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season.

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It isn't all doom and gloom like some think it is. Will there be growing pains this season? Most certainly. But the Wings are still a team that will make the playoffs. With the right moves along the way, anything can happen. There is a long summer ahead of us yet.

Sure we need some luck on our side. But we are by no means on the way out. Go for an above average shut down defenseman, and trade for a high end top 6 winger, and we'll be fine. Healthy seasons from Eaves, Cleary, and Sammy can possibly each get the Wings 20+ goals. Give Smith a chance to log 20+ minutes and let him grow. Other teams give their kids a chance and it pays off. Why can't it for us? Quincey will be better starting with us right from camp. Ericsson will be better. Kronwall has been known to step it up in Lidstroms absence, so he'll need to be great for us to. Sure a lot of things need to go right, but it isn;t the end of the world. Kronwall/Smith/White will be on the PP. Let E/Quincey/Sammy duel it out for that final PP point man. Focus on the PK for now. MAybe the Monster will settle in nicely and have a breakout year in the NHL. IF not, a healthy Howard playing like the first half of last year will steal us games. I like our tandem there.

Tootoo as a wreckingball will rub off on guys like Abby, Ericsson and Eaves. It will make us tougher to play aginst. Has the team gotten worse than last season? Yes. But we'll be a different team. And as long as they are tougher to play against, things can work out fine.

If guys stay healthy, we'll have a lot more depth up front than last season. The D did take an obvious hit. With Suter they wouldn't fully recover from that. The focus now should be one guy who can log a lot of PK minutes to improve us there. Landing a Nash or a Ryan will make us deadly up front. A couple moves and we'll have no trouble being in the playoff picture. Wait until the trade deadline to pick up that defenseman to put them over the top.

There is a lot of talent on this team, and a lot of pride. They will not just roll over and die. Kronwall, Filppula, Ericsson, Nyquist, Eaves, Cleary, and Smith will all need to have bigger impacts this coming season. And there is also a whole lot of summer to go yet.

Look at LA. they were barely in it all season long, made a couple moves at the deadline, and cruised their way to the cup. I'm never gonna give up on the Wings. And I am confident that come the end of the season, the pieces will be in place to make a decent run of it. Sure a lot of things need to go their way. But this is the Detroitf****** Red Wings we're talking about here. End rant.

While I agree with a chunk of points I will say this, if the wings do trade for a Ryan or a Nash all those points about the depth producing will be moot because we'll have traded them to get one the big name forwards. (especially Nash).

Plus finding an above average defenseman is a lot easier said than done. If there was an above average ufa dman available I'm pretty sure kh would have signed him today. If they try to get one via trade that's just more depth heading the other way. It's a tough position right now for the wings and I'm not sure there is a clear answer out there to get this team where we all want them to be. Just my opinion tho

Edited by Wingydingy19

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Totally agree! I do think KH prepared for the worst by stocking up on forwards. The kids will have to play and step it up. A lot of things need to go right, and it could very well be a process that takes a couple seasons to get the team back to where we all want to see them. But they will still be a playoff team. Moves will be made, and I have enough faith in Holland to make this team better.

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To everyone trashing Holland for that one, some questions.

1. What would you have done differently?

Don't give me the excuses like "he should have" its about what you would have done in order to improve this Hockeyclub.

2. How would you have the handled the Suter & Parise situation?

Keep in mind before you answer, they both wanted to play together and in front of their families. They passesd up on an Original Six franchise and also on the chance of playing alongside Malkin, Crosby and Suter being paired with Letang. So this has nothing to do with Detroit's Diamond losing it's shine.

3. Would you be confident with overpaying for at best class B players in order to squeeze into the playoffs and getting our asses handed to us by Vancouver, LA or Nashville?

or maybe just maybe we should pack it in for this season, see what we have in our young-guns, load capspace and offer the world to Getzlaf and Weber next year?

4. What would you have done to prepare for Lidströms retirement?

Save for Burns who went to the Sharks there was absolutely no one outthere, to improve this defense last year!

5. How much more money would you have offered?

Please notice, it wasn't about money for them.

Aside from the obvious questions some of you should ask themselves if you are truely RedWingsFans or fans of winning? Money and tradition aside, you can't win it every year and sometimes you have to go through a reload/tool episode and personally I can't wait seeing our young-guns learning from their mistakes and becoming better players.

Sorry I know I am the new guy here, but some people are acting like the wolrd is coming to an end just because two elite UFAs decided to go elsewhere.

1) I would have signed or traded for a top-tier defensemen the summer after we won our last Cup, despite likely having to give up some of our own young talent via trade or due to lack of cap space to do so. Our stock was never higher as a team so we were as much of a destination for top-tier talent as ever, and shaking things up after winning it all isn't necessarily a bad thing even in the short term, let alone the fact that allowing Lidstrom's replacement to have time to actually play with Lidstrom and LEARN would certainly be the wisest long term move I could make, knowing that sometime soon, Lidstrom would retire.

2) I wouldn't have had to worry about it! I would've signed Hossa after '09 who I'd rather have than Parise anyways for a far better cap hit and let Flip and Hudler go. And I would have already moved mountains to bring in Lidstrom's replacement so signing Suter wouldn't be a necessity. And chances are, these moves might have made Detroit a more attractive destination to both Parise and Suter anyways! Suter wouldn't have to come in and deal with all the pressure of filling Lidstrom's hole and Parise would have 3 legitimate superstars to complement him up front. But again, I don't think I would've put myself in a position to have to pay these guys this much money because I was desperate and had no better option.

3) At this point, you've got to get in bed with the decisions you've made and realize that you set yourself up to have to pay guys like Parise and Suter that much money. That is the NHL today, like it or not. Are they really overpaid if so many teams were willing to pay it? The $8 million difference between our offers is negligible, as I'm sure we'd have matched it if it came to that. We didn't lose these guys because of money. We didn't have the team to sell them on that would've made them look away from what is more like "home" them.

4) See answer 1. This should've happened 3-4 years ago. Really.

5) See 3. If it was the money, we would've matched, and that's simply not the issue. It isn't exactly Holland's fault that we didn't sign Parise and Suter, but it's absolutely his fault that we're in the desperate situation we're in. He's been coasting for far too long playing it cautious. I hate to feel vindicated over arguments about this matter I've been making for years now, because right now, this really does suck, but I've been pissed at Holland's management of this team for quite a while now. I've never felt less bad about my opinion of Holland being at least at this point an overrated, ineffective GM. Maybe he was as good as everyone said he was 10 years ago, but he hasn't been close to anything one might call "good" for 3-4 years now.

pondrocket and CheliFan89 like this

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Detroit is not a playoff team right now, just so everyone understands. They are an old team of soft euros.

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Detroit is not a playoff team right now, just so everyone understands. They are an old team of soft euros.

Just like the past 10 years right?

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Detroit is not a playoff team right now, just so everyone understands. They are an old team of soft euros.

Just like 2006-2007. Right?

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Detroit as is will make the playoffs. I say pick up a big 4th line centre while trading Emmerton and some dead weight and let the kids play. I don't like picking up a bunch of free agents every offseason and making a half assed cup run. It will be exciting giving these guys an opportunity and I think will motivate them. But not making the playoffs is unacceptable. Keep stockpiling forward prospects and build a team from the ground up the right way.

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Schultz...

Holland is 0/3 so far this summer...

0/4 - reports surfaced that the wings offered Sami Salo a 2 year deal.

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To further my hypothesis, let's remember last year. Wiz chose the Columbus Blue Jackets over the Wings because he didn't want to be underpaid (based on what he felt the market would pay him). That's another strike against the 'Detroit Discount'. I think the diamond is changing to a lump of coal.

"For me, knowing Detroit's history they don't really pay the market value for a defenseman or any player,'' Wisniewski said on NHL Live. "So I didn't think that was going to be a fit for myself.

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Sometimes I think that ownership currently has a preoccupation with the baseball diamond.

How do you figure that? Were the Wings offering nearly $180-million to two players not enough? The Wings made incredibly strong offers to both players -- the fact that Ilitch also owns the Tigers has nothing to do with it. Being $17-million under the cap isn't because Ilitch doesn't want to spend -- it's that Ilitch trusts his front office team to spend it on the RIGHT players, not spend it for the sake of doing so. Huge difference.

"For me, knowing Detroit's history they don't really pay the market value for a defenseman or any player,'' Wisniewski said on NHL Live. "So I didn't think that was going to be a fit for myself.

He wanted to be overpaid and he got what he wanted. Now he'll roll around in his $100 bills (when he's not suspended) and languish in Columbus for it. Good for him.

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Who WOULDN'T want to be overpaid? I certainly would.

Therein lies part of my original post - are the days of the 'Detroit Discount' over with? Has Motown lost its swagger? Can Detroit continue to compete for players when they refuse to overpay them even though they know somebody will?

That was part of my original question and yet everyone keeps getting lost in Holland bashing and Parise/Suter. This is a larger concept than just those 2 free agents.

He wanted to be overpaid and he got what he wanted. Now he'll roll around in his $100 bills (when he's not suspended) and languish in Columbus for it. Good for him.

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Were the Wings offering nearly $180-million to two players not enough?

Ownership offered, and will pay, two-hundred-and-fourteen million to one player, paid over a shorter period of time. No difference whatsoever.

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