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FireCaptain

Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?

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"declining" isn't even up for discussion - it's a simple fact.

look at their regular season and playoff finishes over the last 4-5 years. add in this year where a playoff position will likely come down to the wire.

i don't even want to think about what happens if datysuk does indeed choose to leave for russia after next season.

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Im in Fl now and when people hear me talk of missing Detroit or why wouldn't a player choose Detroit they are fascinated.

I don't miss potholes and women only shaving their legs in the summer but Detroit and Michigan have plenty of flavour to lure FA's...if they have the right chaperone.

Thats why a Danny Deykeyser could be such a transcendent pick....Wings need some Ambassadors for the city to show off its luster and hometown dudes can be very valuable for more than just on ice talents.

Hell, most people here still think D is murder capital of the World and Eminem is still Slim ShAdy.

Bring back Boblo and the FA'a will come!

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dekeyser already loves michigan and he's spent his enitre life there. no one needs to sell it to him. it's just a matter of whether any other teams were able to sell him something else.

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dekeyser already loves michigan and he's spent his enitre life there. no one needs to sell it to him. it's just a matter of whether any other teams were able to sell him something else.

I was thinking Danny D could be one of those Ambassadors

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One average, not losing - but not always winning, season and this is what becomes of Wing's fans. Nice :glare:

I don't understand how "the diamond has lost it's shine" other than the leverage that was playing with Nick Lidstrom is now gone.

Lets take a look at some of the factors here:

We'll start with the offseason that no one will shut up about

  • Parise wanted to play in his home state, the only other team he would have signed with was NJ, as he said.
  • Suter had Detroit in the top two on his list of places to sign, but we lost out to a HUGE contract and the fact that he could play in his wife's home state and with his friend Parise.
  • Shultz said from the beginning he wanted to play in Canada....for those of you who don't know Detroit is in the US.

These are the three names (and maybe Semin) that ignited this whole "Detroit is not a desirable team anymore" crap. So, with this logic, had Holland signed one/two of these people would Detroit still be a fading star? If the Wings don't sign at least one big FA every offseason, they're over the hill and nobody wants to play there? Ok. :rolleyes:

It's funny nobody addresses the fact that Brunner decided to sign with us because, you know, he didn't have to....

Now lets look at these current trades with Pittsburgh:

  • First off let me say, Pitt is a desirable place to play solely because of Crosby. Had they not won the lottery all those years ago the Pens would be signing a different tune. To say Shero is better than Holland is a little harsh and sounds like sour grapes from NHL 13 players. I mean, how hard is it to pick top 5 in the draft in 3 consecutive years, one of which you are literally given arguably the best hockey player of this era?
  • Morrow was a great pickup, the ideal rental player. In my opinion, out of all of the players the Pens got, he is the only one I think the Wings should have pursued, considering the asking prices of these players. So that's 1 point for Shero, I guess.
  • Murray is a solid depth defenseman, good pick up- but not what the Wings need. Also I think two 2nd rounders was kind of steep, but thats just me.
  • Now for Iginla: He made a list of teams that had the best chance of winning a cup, I don't understand how Detroit not being on that list makes this an undesirable place to play. The simple truth is Pens have a better chance at winning the cup than we do. Maybe that's whats pissing people off so badly, it makes me mad, but it's true. But the fact that the Pens have a better chance at winning the cup doesn't make me lose faith in this team or our GM. The asking price for Iginla was too high, especially with the risk of him not resigning.

There are a lot of factors that play in to our relatively unsuccessful season so far (and I say relatively as compared to us normally being a top three team in the league). First and foremost, our biggest hit was losing LIds. He left a huge hole in our D and Kenny had to get what he could in the FA market to try to help fill it. It is completely unfair for anyone to expect Holland to find a semi-LIdstrom in the same summer the man retired. Then there was the lockout, and the subsequent loss of a preseason where our new players could have gotten used to the Wings system. Several of our guys didn't play during the lockout and that showed, they needed several games to get back in to game shape. And finally, now that we're kind of getting things rolling and players are somewhat finding their groove, WE CAN'T STAY HEALTHY! I think, considering all of those factors, especially the injuries, we are doing quite well for ourselves. It could be a lot worse.

I honestly did not realize until this season how many fair-weather fans the Wings have, and this makes me sad. I am sorry that we are not going to win the Presidents trophy this year, and we're likely not going to win the cup. Unfortunately reality dictates that you cant win everything every year :unhappy: . The pens are looking pretty good now, and I am sure they could always use a few more bandwagon fans so...theres the door. Myself, I will stay a loser Wings fan :paperbag3:

Ally, e_prime and hillbillywingsfan like this

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One average, not losing - but not always winning, season and this is what becomes of Wing's fans. Nice :glare:

I don't understand how "the diamond has lost it's shine" other than the leverage that was playing with Nick Lidstrom is now gone.

Lets take a look at some of the factors here:

We'll start with the offseason that no one will shut up about

  • Parise wanted to play in his home state, the only other team he would have signed with was NJ, as he said.
  • Suter had Detroit in the top two on his list of places to sign, but we lost out to a HUGE contract and the fact that he could play in his wife's home state and with his friend Parise.
  • Shultz said from the beginning he wanted to play in Canada....for those of you who don't know Detroit is in the US.

These are the three names (and maybe Semin) that ignited this whole "Detroit is not a desirable team anymore" crap. So, with this logic, had Holland signed one/two of these people would Detroit still be a fading star? If the Wings don't sign at least one big FA every offseason, they're over the hill and nobody wants to play there? Ok. :rolleyes:

It's funny nobody addresses the fact that Brunner decided to sign with us because, you know, he didn't have to....

Now lets look at these current trades with Pittsburgh:

  • First off let me say, Pitt is a desirable place to play solely because of Crosby. Had they not won the lottery all those years ago the Pens would be signing a different tune. To say Shero is better than Holland is a little harsh and sounds like sour grapes from NHL 13 players. I mean, how hard is it to pick top 5 in the draft in 3 consecutive years, one of which you are literally given arguably the best hockey player of this era?
  • Morrow was a great pickup, the ideal rental player. In my opinion, out of all of the players the Pens got, he is the only one I think the Wings should have pursued, considering the asking prices of these players. So that's 1 point for Shero, I guess.
  • Murray is a solid depth defenseman, good pick up- but not what the Wings need. Also I think two 2nd rounders was kind of steep, but thats just me.
  • Now for Iginla: He made a list of teams that had the best chance of winning a cup, I don't understand how Detroit not being on that list makes this an undesirable place to play. The simple truth is Pens have a better chance at winning the cup than we do. Maybe that's whats pissing people off so badly, it makes me mad, but it's true. But the fact that the Pens have a better chance at winning the cup doesn't make me lose faith in this team or our GM. The asking price for Iginla was too high, especially with the risk of him not resigning.

There are a lot of factors that play in to our relatively unsuccessful season so far (and I say relatively as compared to us normally being a top three team in the league). First and foremost, our biggest hit was losing LIds. He left a huge hole in our D and Kenny had to get what he could in the FA market to try to help fill it. It is completely unfair for anyone to expect Holland to find a semi-LIdstrom in the same summer the man retired. Then there was the lockout, and the subsequent loss of a preseason where our new players could have gotten used to the Wings system. Several of our guys didn't play during the lockout and that showed, they needed several games to get back in to game shape. And finally, now that we're kind of getting things rolling and players are somewhat finding their groove, WE CAN'T STAY HEALTHY! I think, considering all of those factors, especially the injuries, we are doing quite well for ourselves. It could be a lot worse.

I honestly did not realize until this season how many fair-weather fans the Wings have, and this makes me sad. I am sorry that we are not going to win the Presidents trophy this year, and we're likely not going to win the cup. Unfortunately reality dictates that you cant win everything every year :unhappy: . The pens are looking pretty good now, and I am sure they could always use a few more bandwagon fans so...theres the door. Myself, I will stay a loser Wings fan :paperbag3:

2 prospects and a 1st is too much to ask for a future HoFer who has scored more than any of our wingers with less games played and would be second on our team for hits this year as well as being the toughest player on our team???

Also a classy individual who plays his heart out and is on a quest for his 1st Cup

Edited by Johnz96

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2 prospects and a 1st is too much to ask for a future HoFer who has scored more than any of our wingers with less games played and would be second on our team for hits this year as well as being the toughest player on our team???

Also a classy individual who plays his heart out and is on a quest for his 1st Cup

Too much for a rental, yes. I never said anything negatively towards Iginla like others have. I think he still has a lot to offer for whatever team he plays for. But the cost for one player to maybe win the cup and maybe resign with us? Yeah, price is a little steep. Especially considering our chances of winning the cup this season are less than the team he actually put on his list, besides LA.

Honestly, if the Pens win the cup, the fact that Jerome finally got his name on it will be the silver lining for me

Edited by Wingsfan72

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*cough* Iginla *cough*

Why only give the GM the choice of the last 4 Cup champs? Why not that fifth one?

I reiterate my point in starting this thread - the diamond has lost its shine.

Your point is ridiculous. I can give you a very solid, very easy, and undoubtedly correct reason that does not match with yours: he wants to win a Cup now, and he chose the teams---and, finally, the single team---with which he feels he has the best chance of doing winning that Cup now. The Red Wings are currently very much in the hunt, but they are not currently tearing up the standings.

Your decision to make an "I am right" post was utterly misplaced.

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Detroit is definately not the destination it was 5 years ago. Parody, a smaller collection of high end tallent & not value on the back end. The players & their agents no longer seek out Kenny Holand. That's why nothing has happened.

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Detroit hasn't lost anything. For the 100th time, I think it's obvious Holland is building the team through the draft, and the days of Free Agents and blockbuster trades ended in 2005 when the Salary Cap was introduced. The market for UFA's and trades are way over priced.

Seriously people can't see what Holland is doing with the team and don't understand how the cap works? Geeze, it's been 8 years!

Edit: Also keep in mind the cap is going down next year.

Edited by Barrie
P. Marlowe likes this

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Kenny finishes every deadline with money he could've spent to better the team. He then lip services the media that "OMFG everything costs too much!"

Rinse repeat.

esteef

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Every single time a player goes to another team this happens. The wings haven't lost its shine. Good lord a Stanley cup almost every 5 years is insane... Lost it's shine pssssshhhhhhh

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2 prospects and a 1st is too much to ask for a future HoFer who has scored more than any of our wingers with less games played and would be second on our team for hits this year as well as being the toughest player on our team???

Also a classy individual who plays his heart out and is on a quest for his 1st Cup

For this team and our actual chances to win a cup this year... Absolutely too much.

Why are we going to give up pieces of our future for a guy who in all likelihood is a pure rental?

I'd rather we concentrate on developing our good prospects for our team rather than giving them away to a team that has no luck with drafting and would misuse the talent anyway.

...and for those that say, "Well, the Pens didn't even give them their best prospects for Iginla anyway... so why did Holland do NOTHING?!?" Remember, Iginla had final say on the trade. Teams made their pitches. Feaster tried/wanted to take the Boston offer.

Igninla was the one that said, "Naw. I'd rather go to Pittsburgh"

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Yes, but it has little to do with Parise and Suter. That being said, had better decisions been made in the preceding years, I think we would've had those guys signed easily, maybe for less than Holland even ended up offering. We overpaid for unproven mid-level talent on the hope that it'd blossom in time, instead of underpaying legit stars (who you could afford to rig up with a long contract for a low cap hit because their declining years would be stronger than most mid-level guy's peaks) when we had the leverage. We were constantly caught scrambling in the off-season, failing to secure talent, left to chase scraps, and if you don't think that that has an impression on how outsiders view our team, you are absolutely kidding yourself. Had we made wiser moves and been more aggressive to replace top-end talent, we still would likely be "chasing scraps" due to cap issues, but the story would be phrasing it as "bargain hunting." And those "bargains" would end up looking a lot more like descent low to mid-level guys while playing alongside a top notch core.

We're not a bottom of the barrel team, but we are no longer a top-tier team. It's not like we weren't one of the few remaining teams in the conversation for Suter and Parise, though from what was said after the fact, Parise seemed less interested in coming here than Suter. But I guess at the end of the day, all the more so if nothing happens between now and the deadline, not landing Suter and Parise certainly will be hanging in people's minds more in the future as more people continue to ponder this question.

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Kenny finishes every deadline with money he could've spent to better the team. He then lip services the media that "OMFG everything costs too much!"

Rinse repeat.

esteef

And then he overpays for people like Quincey and Samuelsson, like the above poster suggested.

I'd rather overpay for stars then for scrubs.

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And then he overpays for people like Quincey and Samuelsson, like the above poster suggested.

I'd rather overpay for stars then for scrubs.

We've gotten a lot more bang for the buck on our cheap deals and high-end deals than our mid-level deals. That's largely because most of our mid-level guys have history with the team. Cleary and Sammy weren't guys we drafted, but there best years were here and they won Cups here. Then you throw in guys like Franzen, Flip, Hudler, and Ericsson. Obviously you can't just eliminate all of these guys, but Flip and Hudler in particular always seemed like bad decisions to me. Hudler just didn't have what it takes to be consistent and he was small and one-dimensional. Flip was a solid two-way guy who was ultimately unnecessary on a team with Dats and Z, and also likely our most valuable trade asset in years past. Some of the stuff we've had to pass on to keep these guys that we hope will end up looking like bargains is just unfortunate to say the least. And I knew the real deal on Franzen when that deal was signed. It was still at a high-point for the guy offensively, and I was as big of a fan as any and excited that we got him at such a low cap hit relative to his recent production, but there was a muted feeling to the excitement. I remember it distinctly. It was worry. And why not? With the long term of that deal and the problems Franzen had with injuries, his one-dimensional play and the fact that there was still potential for his offensive output could likely be a flash in the pan, you had to raise an eyebrow. Franzen was hot at that moment, but he was never a Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Those guys will contribute something valuable at every point in their careers. When Franzen's not scoring, he's useless. That was as true then as it is painfully true the last couple years.

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*pulls diamond from pocket*

*breathes on diamond*

*buffs diamond*

Welcome DeKeyser!!

...oh, wait. Not the big name you're looking for? :ninja:

*puts diamond back in pocket*

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I get the distinct impression that winning another Stanley Cup, in the near future, is not the primary priority right now. In fact, it's been reported by the media.

Focus has been diverted to another prize.

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If Detroit has lost it's shine, then so too has Boston, Chicago, LA, Anaheim, the NYR, STL, Philly, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and a number of other teams that Suter, Parise, Iginla, and Schultz didn't choose.

So one free agent, Hossa, called the Wings a few years ago. So that made the Wings some huge free agent destination and every player was beating the door down to play in Detroit? What's funny too is that everyone thinks we won sort of bidding war to get Hull and Robitaille back in the day. There wasn't much of a demand for either one, especially Robitaille. He sat out there quite a while before the Wings signed him. Hasek wasn't a free agent, we got him in a trade. Same with Shanahan and Chelios. So who are all these other big ticket free agents that we stole from other teams?

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There wasn't much of a demand for either one, especially Robitaille. He sat out there quite a while before the Wings signed him.

Robitaille had scored 38 goals and 88 points the year before. There was plenty of demand for him. He chose the Red Wings almost immediately because he wanted to win a Cup before he retired, and because picking up Hasek had made them a clear favorite on that count.

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I stand corrected. It was Hull who didn't sign until late August. The Wings of 2001-2002 were not all that different from the Wings now. Aging stars, seemingly no good young players, trying to make one last run at the Cup. The only thing that differentiates this years team from that team was that there was no salary cap. Sure, other teams wanted Luc, but most teams didn't have the funds or didn't want to spend the money on him like Mike Ilitich did.

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