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FireCaptain

Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?

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2 years ago he could have Bogosian for Hudler and Ericsson

It was confirmed long ago that that offer was never on the table. It was a rumor, and one completely without basis.

We are looking at Doan as a savior (he's 35) but why Kenny opted for Emmerton instead of a Milan Lučić?!

Emmerton was ranked #10 amongst North American prospects going into the 2006 draft. This was a far higher ranking than Lucic carried. You are speaking entirely from hindsight, which is completely unreasonable. More, Lucic was passed over 49 times before the Bruins drafted him. Nobody, the Bruins included, deigned to pick him in the first round.

Edited by Crymson

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Well original offer was $80M and then someone (I think it was Ilitch) had increased to $90M.

Kenny wasn't prepared to live without Lidstrom. What will be next step... he will bring Lilja back and overpay for Carle...

2 years ago he could have Bogosian for Hudler and Ericsson but he denied that trade because he wants to have veterans... Why Sammy is back? Why we can't give a chance to Nyquist and Brunner on the 2nd line??? I don't care if we are going to win 60 games or 45 games. Time has changed, YOU NEED TO TRUST to your young players. We are looking at Doan as a savior (he's 35) but why Kenny opted for Emmerton instead of a Milan Lučić?! He was supposed to make this team bigger and tougher... "tough addition" is Jordan Tootoo - WTF!!!!!

Yes, that was exactly my point. Perhaps Ilitch initially indicated to Holland that he would only go to 80M, then decided to try to stomach 90M. To go to 98M (for BOTH players, who wanted to play together it seems), people are so sure that Ilitch must have been fine with what would amount to another 16M between the two.

I'll wait to see what happens on defense before throwing him under the bus. There's plenty of time to go.

Lucic was drafted 50th overall. Plenty of teams passed him up. Just as is the case every year. Holland has also had some great steals in the draft. This particular point is just ridiculous to even argue. Scouts give the GMs most of their information. And at that, it's a GUESS. Get over it.

Hey, if GMs were perfect, NY would have already had Parise, taking him at #12 overall in 2003 instead of Hugh Jessiman. See how ridiculous it is to say things like that?

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1. Lidstrom retiring is out of Holland's control. It's ridiculous to blame him for that.

2. Schultz not coming her was out of Holland's control (he wanted to play in Canada).

3. Again, you're blaming Holland for not offering more of somebody else's money. He did what he could, I'm sure. But if, hypothetically, Ilitch said he wouldn't go higher with the offer, that's not Kenny's fault. In fact, I believe it was Ilitch himself who was the last one to visit Suter.

4. Offensively, we're actually ok. So the signings of Bertuzzi and Samuelsson aren't an issue, nor have they impacted our ability to get anybody that might be better. Also, every player won't be a superstar. They're not actually bad players.

5. Gustavsson was a good improvement as a backup. I don't know what your complaint is there.

Maybe Holland could have made better moves or been more aggressive in some ways. But your critisisms of him are way overboard.

1. I agree with you on this - BUT - he was not prepared to lose Lids.

2. Regarding Schultz - he went to the place where the young players have a chance to develope and play in NHL.

Other than that, I agree with you... and the worst part is that Holland will sign Carle for $25M/5 years and that's even worst than overpaying for Suter...

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Regardless of these two guys not coming here, if anyone honestly believes this team is as appealing as it was let's say 5 years ago, you are only fooling yourself. In the last two seasons we have lost two ELITE defensemen and our stars are only getting older. I don't think it's as bad as some people are making it out to be, but we certainly aren't the be all-end all like we once were.

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I think another reason why Suter and Parise wanted to play together in Minnesota because its a special place to American hockey players.

Regardless of these two guys not coming here, if anyone honestly believes this team is as appealing as it was let's say 5 years ago, you are only fooling yourself. In the last two seasons we have lost two ELITE defensemen and our stars are only getting older. I don't think it's as bad as some people are making it out to be, but we certainly aren't the be all-end all like we once were.

I wouldn't say we lost 2 Elite defenseman, 1 yeah but your not gonna find another Lidstrom. I agree with the stars getting older, but maybe its time the Red Wings just take a chance with our young guys and see where it goes, its the fans that are spoiled that are fooling themselves. Wings just have to go about building the team a different way. I admit getting guys like Sammy and Tootoo, or signing Bert isn't the way to go, but we have Nyquist and Brunner to go along with Helm, Smith etc, lets see what they bring.

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It was confirmed long ago that that offer was never on the table. It was a rumor, and one completely without basis.

Emmerton was ranked #10 amongst North American prospects going into the 2006 draft. This was a far higher ranking than Lucic carried. You are speaking entirely from hindsight, which is completely unreasonable. More, Lucic was passed over 49 times before the Bruins drafted him. Nobody, the Bruins included, deigned to pick him in the first round.

When specific player is chosen in the 1st round - then everybody is saying: that we couldn't trade down, when he's chosen lately - then everybody is saying: well there are 29 other teams which decided not to pick him...

Maybe 29 other teams have another needs to adress... Like Detroit need to adress TOUGHNESS but Kenny doesn't want to draft those kind of players, he want's to pick him through waivers...

Emmerton was (in best case) supposed to be 3rd line center - nothing more... unless we have problems with development of young players...

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Exactly, Harry. One or the other. Sign the bigs at any cost or let the prospects play. I dont want to see Bertuzzi, Holmstrom, and Samuelsson suck.

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When specific player is chosen in the 1st round - then everybody is saying: that we couldn't trade down, when he's chosen lately - then everybody is saying: well there are 29 other teams which decided not to pick him...

Maybe 29 other teams have another needs to adress... Like Detroit need to adress TOUGHNESS but Kenny doesn't want to draft those kind of players, he want's to pick him through waivers...

Emmerton was (in best case) supposed to be 3rd line center - nothing more... unless we have problems with development of young players...

What needs were addressed by Anaheim in taking Mark Mitera? Or by Montreal in taking David Fisher? Or Sanguinetti, Persson, Vishnevsky, Summers, Corrente, Kana, Sneep, Alexandrov, Swan, Holzapfel, etc, etc, etc being taken by their respective teams. All of these were taken prior to Lucic and have never and will never come close to his impact. Maybe Boston just did a great job of scouting this one particular player among thousands. Or maybe they got lucky. Either way, this is a ridiculous argument - many teams dropped the ball in passing over Lucic.

You draft for talent, not needs. That's a common philosophy. If it was known how good Lucic was, he would have gone prior to the Wings ever making a pick.

Edited by Zetts
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I think another reason why Suter and Parise wanted to play together in Minnesota because its a special place to American hockey players.

I wouldn't say we lost 2 Elite defenseman, 1 yeah but your not gonna find another Lidstrom. I agree with the stars getting older, but maybe its time the Red Wings just take a chance with our young guys and see where it goes, its the fans that are spoiled that are fooling themselves. Wings just have to go about building the team a different way. I admit getting guys like Sammy and Tootoo, or signing Bert isn't the way to go, but we have Nyquist and Brunner to go along with Helm, Smith etc, lets see what they bring.

Raf was quite the D-man, though he struggled his last season here.

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How do you even know how much they offered Parise? IT's pretty clear that offer was less than what was offered to Suter because he was our bigger need.

So our GM stinks because PArise and Suter wanted to go play BFF on a s***ty team? Please. Suter was all but signed with the Wings until Parise talked him out of it. Holland wasn't gonna criiple the team in the future cap-wise to bring in above average players. If you wanna go all out with money, you wait for Weber, not Suter.

Sorry - I wasn't speaking about Parise

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Those are horrible contracts, we're a lot better off without them.

Detroit's offer to Suter is pretty same than Wild's... Let's hope he's not going to overpay for Carle.

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Kenny wasn't prepared to live without Lidstrom.

This says it all. We all knew when Lids was turning 40, and he had another possible year, max. Holland had YEARS to prepare for this, and what did he do? He seems a little lost in the salary cap era, now that the Wings' stars from the pre-cap days are gone.

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This says it all. We all knew when Lids was turning 40, and he had another possible year, max. Holland had YEARS to prepare for this, and what did he do? He seems a little lost in the salary cap era, now that the Wings' stars from the pre-cap days are gone.

This!!!!!

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To everyone trashing Holland for that one, some questions.

1. What would you have done differently?

Don't give me the excuses like "he should have" its about what you would have done in order to improve this Hockeyclub.

2. How would you have the handled the Suter & Parise situation?

Keep in mind before you answer, they both wanted to play together and in front of their families. They passesd up on an Original Six franchise and also on the chance of playing alongside Malkin, Crosby and Suter being paired with Letang. So this has nothing to do with Detroit's Diamond losing it's shine.

3. Would you be confident with overpaying for at best class B players in order to squeeze into the playoffs and getting our asses handed to us by Vancouver, LA or Nashville?

or maybe just maybe we should pack it in for this season, see what we have in our young-guns, load capspace and offer the world to Getzlaf and Weber next year?

4. What would you have done to prepare for Lidströms retirement?

Save for Burns who went to the Sharks there was absolutely no one outthere, to improve this defense last year!

5. How much more money would you have offered?

Please notice, it wasn't about money for them.

Aside from the obvious questions some of you should ask themselves if you are truely RedWingsFans or fans of winning? Money and tradition aside, you can't win it every year and sometimes you have to go through a reload/tool episode and personally I can't wait seeing our young-guns learning from their mistakes and becoming better players.

Sorry I know I am the new guy here, but some people are acting like the wolrd is coming to an end just because two elite UFAs decided to go elsewhere.

Edited by frankgrimes

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I've seen articles that say both, so who knows (although it does now look like it was 13 years).. You and I are in agreement though, that the difference is negligible.

I guess it went from 12 to 13 years when it went up from $80M to $90M.

I think that our offer was $90M for 13 years and not 12 years... difference of $.6M per season... which is NOTHING IMO.

http://www.canada.com/sports/Wings+ante+lure+Ryan+Suter/6881835/story.html

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/story/2012-07-03/Red-Wings-up-offer-for-Ryan-Suter/56008136/1

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2012/7/2/3133925/ryan-suter-predators-red-wings-90-million-contract

http://detroit.sbnation.com/detroit-red-wings/2012/6/14/3087964/ryan-suter-red-wings-rumors

Edited by FireCaptain

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Holland sucks. Simple as that. Rafalski was signed too long, Holmstrom was a disaster, bertuzzi is a disaster, samuelsson is a disaster, hudler didnt need to be here, etc., etc., etc. Holland doesnt know what hes doing. Scotty Bowman was our success.

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Holland sucks. Simple as that. Rafalski was signed too long, Holmstrom was a disaster, bertuzzi is a disaster, samuelsson is a disaster, hudler didnt need to be here, etc., etc., etc. Holland doesnt know what hes doing. Scotty Bowman was our success.

This guy has got to be trolling.

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Yes I definetly think the Detroit diamond has lost it's shine. After failing so many times to land big-nam players whether it be Free Agency or Trades or whatever Wings haven't done anything big since the Hossa signing and we saw what happen that season. Maybe we need to start seeing if we can unload some of our less valuable players to eventually get a better draft position or something like that. Of course the Wings need to start doing more during the season to draw good players in again. I hate to say it but perhaps we are entering another time of a Stanley Cup Drought maybe not necessarily a Dead Wings era but a time where we don't win the Cup for a while. I HATE the thought of that but unless we can start doing something to prove we are still a contender we may not see a bunch of great players in Detroit for a bit. It would be great to do something big and prove me wrong becasue Wings definetly need to get another Cup SOON. As of right now I'm not really likeing our team moving forward maybe we can do something big to pull us out of the gutter quick. I think Ken Holland is a big part of our lack-luster rosters over the past few seasons. I've been saying it for a while that I'm constantly losing confidence in him. We all like to play the so called "Arm-Chair GM" and think we know what's best I've done it a lot I mean I love Be A GM Mode in NHL 12. However as someone said Holland has had years to prepare for Liddy retiring at some point and should have had someone solid lined up and already on the roster. I realize there wasn't anyone that was really going to replace the best defenseman and no I wouldn't have been comfortable in over-paying Parise or Suter either but, Holland favors bringing back old talent that hasn't go the necessary spark anymore to be valuable to the team. He admits he likes his prospects "over-ripe" and at this point that's BS becasue we could bring them up a season sooner and have them deveolping well on our NHL roster and giving them a chance to prove they belong. Holland is showing his age and we need to get someone else in here with a younger mind and way of thinking becasue the NHL is growing younger and that may be why we haven't made it past the second round of the playoffs in 3 seasons becasue we don't have a spark on the team to help make us Champions again.

Edited by Dimaline312000

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We haven't signed any big names since Hossa because we didn't have the cap space to sign any free agents.

Suter/Parise didn't chose Detroit because it's a bad situation, they chose Minnesota because they wanted to play in Minnesota.

Holland is fine, he needs to spend his money wisely, we don't have any terrible contracts(Franzen is the worst, but he's not grossly overpaid in other words.) We aren't in a Calgary situation where we are against the cap. Holland can't make a move here just to please fans, he has to make the right moves. It's not about having a team that's good for one year, it's about having a team that is good for the long haul. We have prospects, we have cap space, we have very good pieces(Z+Dat+Kron+Howard) this is not a bad time for the Red Wings.

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Ken is not perfect,but I think his plain was not to spend at the deadline and keep cap space to get Suter via free agency.

The whole hockey world thought Nick won't retire yet,so having suter-lidstrom pair for at least one season sounds like a good preparation for the "after Nick" era for me.

Just my 2 cents...

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Carman's correct, it's the Cap. Also Suter Parise wanted to play together, and Parise wanted to play in his home state of Minnesota.

George Costanza said it best, "It's not you, it's me"

Detroit's offer to Suter is pretty same than Wild's.

Right, after I heard that, I'm glad we didn't get him.

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Hi, I'm Gabriel, and occasionally I like to come on and dish out some logic in the face of illogical statements.

In reality, my post had little to do with the actual Suter and Parise and more with the concept of them. As a free agent, what would attract people to Detroit? The glamour seems to be gone. However, I should have realized that people are too butt-hurt over those two choosing the Wild to be able to think rationally and have an intellectual discussion about such an abstract concept.

$90M for 12 years and $98M for 13 years are ALMOST AN IDENTICAL CAP HIT. $7.5M/yr. vs. $7.538M/yr. Would you still consider it a handcuff if Suter were a Wing for a mere $38,000/yr less?

Never did I say anything about being a second tier franchise. Just because the competition has increased their level through 'parity' does not mean that the Wings have necessarily lowered theirs. However, if there are multiple teams than can be considered legitimate playoff contenders, simply going to Detroit "for a shot at winning" doesn't have the same draw.

Nice personal attack. When you can't, or won't, discuss an issue, feel free to attack another person's fan-ness. My point in the original post was to see what other fans think Detroit can do to possibly change the perception (if there is one) about committing to the Wings. A city in disarray and a team that continually derided as too old and past their prime.

If I were given the choice between two major cities and nearly identical contracts, I'd look at it in a 'numbers' sense as well..

You'll pay 3% more in personal income taxes in Minnesota (Suddenly, your extra $8Mil is $2.94Mil less).

Also, the cost of living is 28% higher in Minneapolis - http://www.bestplace...&city2=52743000

Given factors like that, the dollars make more sense for Detroit.

I realize that Suter/Parise wanted to play together and that is a mitigating factor that you can't place a value on. I just want to discuss the changing dynamics behind the concept.

Firstly, I'm glad you put 'ALMOST' in there, because they're no where near identical cap hits. 12 years would get both players off the books in the 39th year, 13 years would be 40th. That's an extra year at $7.5 when they'll most likely be crappy shells of their former selves. So whilst similar in yearly numbers, not so in practice. For a GM that's a difference maker.

As for the second point, if Detroit hasn't lowered their standards then there is still the lure of a chance at winning. What you've put out is close to an unfalsifyable statement, in that I can counter it with an equally valid yet opposite statement and neither can be proved right or wrong. If 'parity' means that more teams have a chance of winning, yet Detroit hasn't necessarily lowered their chances, then yes there will be more teams with a good chance of success yet Detroit will still be in the same strong position only with company. That doesn't mean their appeal for players lowers. See my point? I love my iMac, but those nice new Windows laptops have really closed the gap in regards to performance and technology. Still, iMacs haven't got any worse so I'll stick with them. Make sense?

1. I agree with you on this - BUT - he was not prepared to lose Lids.

2. Regarding Schultz - he went to the place where the young players have a chance to develope and play in NHL.

Other than that, I agree with you... and the worst part is that Holland will sign Carle for $25M/5 years and that's even worst than overpaying for Suter...

Unfortunately he went to a place where they only have young players looking to develop. By the time they have done, they'll be priced out of that team and will spend their prime years elsewhere. And who is to say that a whole team of young player will even develop as they should without veteran presence at all levels? I understand his decision, but don't necessarily agree. That being said, also don't mind that he didn't end up here as there is no guarantee he'd have faired well or suffered in the NHL. Could have been a risk.

Regardless of these two guys not coming here, if anyone honestly believes this team is as appealing as it was let's say 5 years ago, you are only fooling yourself. In the last two seasons we have lost two ELITE defensemen and our stars are only getting older. I don't think it's as bad as some people are making it out to be, but we certainly aren't the be all-end all like we once were.

I must be fooling myself then because this team is always appealing to me. But that's only because I support them and will during thick and thin. They may not be as successful in years to come but I'll still love watching them and will still cheer every goal and wish them to do well each and every night. That's what I understand as 'appealing'.

I read a couple of articles today that reference the Wings' inability to land Suter or Parise. I'm beginning to think long gone are the days of the hometown discount and the 'head to Detroit and you've got a shot at a championship' mentality. With the parity that currently exists, any team has a shot at winning.

Yes, there's a tradition of success. Yes, there's 4 Cups in the last 15 years. However, there's just as many first/second round exits and early playoff exits. Other than consistently making the playoffs - what sets Detroit apart as a choice for someone's career? Nothing tangible.

Sure, there are the intangibles - the history, Original Six, 11 Cups, Gordie Howe, etc.. but those have very little to do a person's day-to-day working life or home life.

I was just pondering all this.. what say you?

http://www.freep.com...ise-free-agency

http://www.foxsports...362&feedID=3706

The first point here, you use in reference to the Wings failing to land two players who decided to sign for a team close to their homes. Everyone has a different 'hometown'. Much like we managed to convincce Mike Modano, only the best American-born player in NHL history, to put off retirement for a year and sign for a hometown discount in the state where he was born and raised. Unfortunately due to unforeseen circumstances it didn't pan out as it could have but proves the point that everyone has different homes.

The second point is a bit of an odd one, because being one of the winningest teams in NHL history, there are far more teams that have more 'first/second round exits' than the Wings. In fact there are far more teams that don't even make the playoffs year on year... Calgary would wish for a first round exit after these recent years.

Even if the Red Wings had matched Minnesota's offers to both, it probably wouldn't have mattered.

“You read today where they’re happy to be going as a pair and they’re both going home,'' Holland said. “Those are some of the things we couldn’t compete against because we’re not (their) home.''

Reference for the above point about 'hometown discount'.

Dominator2005, youre the only one who realizes that Holland lost a race. If hes willing to offer 180 mil to 2 guys, why not go the extra mile and offer 8 mil a season to land em both. In 7 years, cap will be 80-90 million and the extra mil a season will be so meaningless. We lost 2 great players and our gm stinks. Those are the facts.

Non-bold: Maybe Holland didn't lose a race here. He simply got to a point that was financially viable and make the decision not to go over the top and risk future money. Hence not offering an extra $8m. Deciding to not throw more money and risk losing a contract is a stronger, more ballsy decision than doing it. People might criticise him for doing it but it makes this team stronger going forward than if we had them for that long. If it was 7/8 years then maybe not as much, but 13 is a long time and I think he made a good choice. Also the cap doesn't simply rise a la inflation. It can very well go down. We'd be boned if it did (as MIN will be if it does).

Bold: Those aren't facts at all. They are opinions. Why they are not facts? I think 1 is a great player and 1 is a good defenceman who can give solid play but is in no way elite. Also I think Holland is a damn good GM. See, not facts. Opinions.

It doesnt matter why. Facts are: 1) we dont have either Lidstrom, Shultz, parise or suter, and 2) we have bertuzzi, sammuelson, gustavson, and tootoo. That is crappy general management by definition.

1) Those ARE facts (see above point). As are those at 2) yet everything else is once again opinion. Not sure how it's crappy management either considering Lidstrom made his own decision (Holland didn't tell him to retire), Schultz is unproven, and Parise and Suter either wanted too much money or wanted to play closer to home. If anything I'm thinking that limiting yourself with money and thinking about the sustained future of the organisation rather than the next 10 years is a good thing. If you're going on age here as well, Gustavsson and Tootoo are both 27, same as Parise and Suter (I only say as people seem to think that Tootoo is old for some reason?!) Yes they're not as accomplished as P & S but one's a goaltender and one's a physical forward. Bert and Sammy also have the experience over all 3 of Parise, Suter and Schultz which can count for everything down the line.

People are acting like we lost Dats, Z, Flip, Helm, etc in all this and that we're falling apart. I think we'll be ok, maybe not as dominating as we've been in the past, but come on, we're not the Thrashers here.

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