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Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?


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#61 Wingydingy19

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:34 PM

It isn't all doom and gloom like some think it is. Will there be growing pains this season? Most certainly. But the Wings are still a team that will make the playoffs. With the right moves along the way, anything can happen. There is a long summer ahead of us yet.

Sure we need some luck on our side. But we are by no means on the way out. Go for an above average shut down defenseman, and trade for a high end top 6 winger, and we'll be fine. Healthy seasons from Eaves, Cleary, and Sammy can possibly each get the Wings 20+ goals. Give Smith a chance to log 20+ minutes and let him grow. Other teams give their kids a chance and it pays off. Why can't it for us? Quincey will be better starting with us right from camp. Ericsson will be better. Kronwall has been known to step it up in Lidstroms absence, so he'll need to be great for us to. Sure a lot of things need to go right, but it isn;t the end of the world. Kronwall/Smith/White will be on the PP. Let E/Quincey/Sammy duel it out for that final PP point man. Focus on the PK for now. MAybe the Monster will settle in nicely and have a breakout year in the NHL. IF not, a healthy Howard playing like the first half of last year will steal us games. I like our tandem there.

Tootoo as a wreckingball will rub off on guys like Abby, Ericsson and Eaves. It will make us tougher to play aginst. Has the team gotten worse than last season? Yes. But we'll be a different team. And as long as they are tougher to play against, things can work out fine.

If guys stay healthy, we'll have a lot more depth up front than last season. The D did take an obvious hit. With Suter they wouldn't fully recover from that. The focus now should be one guy who can log a lot of PK minutes to improve us there. Landing a Nash or a Ryan will make us deadly up front. A couple moves and we'll have no trouble being in the playoff picture. Wait until the trade deadline to pick up that defenseman to put them over the top.

There is a lot of talent on this team, and a lot of pride. They will not just roll over and die. Kronwall, Filppula, Ericsson, Nyquist, Eaves, Cleary, and Smith will all need to have bigger impacts this coming season. And there is also a whole lot of summer to go yet.

Look at LA. they were barely in it all season long, made a couple moves at the deadline, and cruised their way to the cup. I'm never gonna give up on the Wings. And I am confident that come the end of the season, the pieces will be in place to make a decent run of it. Sure a lot of things need to go their way. But this is the Detroitf****** Red Wings we're talking about here. End rant.


While I agree with a chunk of points I will say this, if the wings do trade for a Ryan or a Nash all those points about the depth producing will be moot because we'll have traded them to get one the big name forwards. (especially Nash).

Plus finding an above average defenseman is a lot easier said than done. If there was an above average ufa dman available I'm pretty sure kh would have signed him today. If they try to get one via trade that's just more depth heading the other way. It's a tough position right now for the wings and I'm not sure there is a clear answer out there to get this team where we all want them to be. Just my opinion tho

Edited by Wingydingy19, 04 July 2012 - 10:35 PM.


#62 marcaractac

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:46 PM

Totally agree! I do think KH prepared for the worst by stocking up on forwards. The kids will have to play and step it up. A lot of things need to go right, and it could very well be a process that takes a couple seasons to get the team back to where we all want to see them. But they will still be a playoff team. Moves will be made, and I have enough faith in Holland to make this team better.

#63 Salviaman

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:49 PM

Would you all stop acting like your Kenny Holland?
Think for yourself. Question authority. Throughout human history as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are or where we are going in this ocean of chance, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself.

#64 gcom007

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:51 PM

To everyone trashing Holland for that one, some questions.

1. What would you have done differently?
Don't give me the excuses like "he should have" its about what you would have done in order to improve this Hockeyclub.

2. How would you have the handled the Suter & Parise situation?
Keep in mind before you answer, they both wanted to play together and in front of their families. They passesd up on an Original Six franchise and also on the chance of playing alongside Malkin, Crosby and Suter being paired with Letang. So this has nothing to do with Detroit's Diamond losing it's shine.

3. Would you be confident with overpaying for at best class B players in order to squeeze into the playoffs and getting our asses handed to us by Vancouver, LA or Nashville?
or maybe just maybe we should pack it in for this season, see what we have in our young-guns, load capspace and offer the world to Getzlaf and Weber next year?

4. What would you have done to prepare for Lidströms retirement?
Save for Burns who went to the Sharks there was absolutely no one outthere, to improve this defense last year!

5. How much more money would you have offered?
Please notice, it wasn't about money for them.

Aside from the obvious questions some of you should ask themselves if you are truely RedWingsFans or fans of winning? Money and tradition aside, you can't win it every year and sometimes you have to go through a reload/tool episode and personally I can't wait seeing our young-guns learning from their mistakes and becoming better players.

Sorry I know I am the new guy here, but some people are acting like the wolrd is coming to an end just because two elite UFAs decided to go elsewhere.


1) I would have signed or traded for a top-tier defensemen the summer after we won our last Cup, despite likely having to give up some of our own young talent via trade or due to lack of cap space to do so. Our stock was never higher as a team so we were as much of a destination for top-tier talent as ever, and shaking things up after winning it all isn't necessarily a bad thing even in the short term, let alone the fact that allowing Lidstrom's replacement to have time to actually play with Lidstrom and LEARN would certainly be the wisest long term move I could make, knowing that sometime soon, Lidstrom would retire.

2) I wouldn't have had to worry about it! I would've signed Hossa after '09 who I'd rather have than Parise anyways for a far better cap hit and let Flip and Hudler go. And I would have already moved mountains to bring in Lidstrom's replacement so signing Suter wouldn't be a necessity. And chances are, these moves might have made Detroit a more attractive destination to both Parise and Suter anyways! Suter wouldn't have to come in and deal with all the pressure of filling Lidstrom's hole and Parise would have 3 legitimate superstars to complement him up front. But again, I don't think I would've put myself in a position to have to pay these guys this much money because I was desperate and had no better option.

3) At this point, you've got to get in bed with the decisions you've made and realize that you set yourself up to have to pay guys like Parise and Suter that much money. That is the NHL today, like it or not. Are they really overpaid if so many teams were willing to pay it? The $8 million difference between our offers is negligible, as I'm sure we'd have matched it if it came to that. We didn't lose these guys because of money. We didn't have the team to sell them on that would've made them look away from what is more like "home" them.

4) See answer 1. This should've happened 3-4 years ago. Really.

5) See 3. If it was the money, we would've matched, and that's simply not the issue. It isn't exactly Holland's fault that we didn't sign Parise and Suter, but it's absolutely his fault that we're in the desperate situation we're in. He's been coasting for far too long playing it cautious. I hate to feel vindicated over arguments about this matter I've been making for years now, because right now, this really does suck, but I've been pissed at Holland's management of this team for quite a while now. I've never felt less bad about my opinion of Holland being at least at this point an overrated, ineffective GM. Maybe he was as good as everyone said he was 10 years ago, but he hasn't been close to anything one might call "good" for 3-4 years now.

-Elliot


#65 jroc86

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:19 PM

Hindsights a beautiful thing ...

#66 The Axe

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:27 PM

Detroit is not a playoff team right now, just so everyone understands. They are an old team of soft euros.

#67 KrazyGangsta

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:11 AM

Detroit is not a playoff team right now, just so everyone understands. They are an old team of soft euros.


Just like the past 10 years right?

#68 Crymson

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:38 AM

Detroit is not a playoff team right now, just so everyone understands. They are an old team of soft euros.


Just like 2006-2007. Right?

#69 joesuffP

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 04:18 AM

Detroit as is will make the playoffs. I say pick up a big 4th line centre while trading Emmerton and some dead weight and let the kids play. I don't like picking up a bunch of free agents every offseason and making a half assed cup run. It will be exciting giving these guys an opportunity and I think will motivate them. But not making the playoffs is unacceptable. Keep stockpiling forward prospects and build a team from the ground up the right way.

#70 mmorland

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:03 AM

Schultz...

Holland is 0/3 so far this summer...

0/4 - reports surfaced that the wings offered Sami Salo a 2 year deal.
"I can't believe I shook this guys frickin' hand. We lost and I'm pissed off. But to see Kris Draper's face makes me sick. I didn't see his face until after the game, but his face is turned sideways. If the league doesn't do something about that ... I mean that's ridiculous. He could have broken his fricken neck."

-Dino Ciccarelli

#71 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:17 AM

Sometimes I think that ownership currently has a preoccupation with the baseball diamond.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#72 FireCaptain

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:23 AM

To further my hypothesis, let's remember last year. Wiz chose the Columbus Blue Jackets over the Wings because he didn't want to be underpaid (based on what he felt the market would pay him). That's another strike against the 'Detroit Discount'. I think the diamond is changing to a lump of coal.

"For me, knowing Detroit's history they don't really pay the market value for a defenseman or any player,'' Wisniewski said on NHL Live. "So I didn't think that was going to be a fit for myself.


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#73 Matt

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:25 AM

Sometimes I think that ownership currently has a preoccupation with the baseball diamond.


How do you figure that? Were the Wings offering nearly $180-million to two players not enough? The Wings made incredibly strong offers to both players -- the fact that Ilitch also owns the Tigers has nothing to do with it. Being $17-million under the cap isn't because Ilitch doesn't want to spend -- it's that Ilitch trusts his front office team to spend it on the RIGHT players, not spend it for the sake of doing so. Huge difference.

"For me, knowing Detroit's history they don't really pay the market value for a defenseman or any player,'' Wisniewski said on NHL Live. "So I didn't think that was going to be a fit for myself.


He wanted to be overpaid and he got what he wanted. Now he'll roll around in his $100 bills (when he's not suspended) and languish in Columbus for it. Good for him.

#74 FireCaptain

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:35 AM

Who WOULDN'T want to be overpaid? I certainly would.

Therein lies part of my original post - are the days of the 'Detroit Discount' over with? Has Motown lost its swagger? Can Detroit continue to compete for players when they refuse to overpay them even though they know somebody will?

That was part of my original question and yet everyone keeps getting lost in Holland bashing and Parise/Suter. This is a larger concept than just those 2 free agents.

He wanted to be overpaid and he got what he wanted. Now he'll roll around in his $100 bills (when he's not suspended) and languish in Columbus for it. Good for him.


Most nights, my posts are brought to you by some sort of IPA and a heaping dose of sarcasm.
Success has a thousand fathers, failure is an orphan.
We not score, is hard to win. - Pavel Datsyuk #13


#75 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:41 AM

Were the Wings offering nearly $180-million to two players not enough?


Ownership offered, and will pay, two-hundred-and-fourteen million to one player, paid over a shorter period of time. No difference whatsoever.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#76 rick zombo

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:48 AM

Ownership offered, and will pay, two-hundred-and-fourteen million to one player, paid over a shorter period of time. No difference whatsoever.


Is this baseball you're talking about? Salary cap free baseball?
"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#77 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:51 AM

Is this baseball you're talking about? Salary cap free baseball?


It's called "revenue sharing". Same thing.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#78 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:11 AM

Who WOULDN'T want to be overpaid? I certainly would.

Therein lies part of my original post - are the days of the 'Detroit Discount' over with? Has Motown lost its swagger? Can Detroit continue to compete for players when they refuse to overpay them even though they know somebody will?

That was part of my original question and yet everyone keeps getting lost in Holland bashing and Parise/Suter. This is a larger concept than just those 2 free agents.

I think you missed a lot what was said. They both wanted to play in Minn....home town..playing in front of their family and friends.....Like Holland said Detroit was not their home. That's why they didn't sign with Detroit. Had nothing to do with the wings losing their shine or any of that.
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#79 FireCaptain

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:16 AM

AGAIN, look at the larger concept and NOT the Parise/Suter deal. I know they wanted to play together close to home.


I think you missed a lot what was said. They both wanted to play in Minn....home town..playing in front of their family and friends.....Like Holland said Detroit was not their home. That's why they didn't sign with Detroit. Had nothing to do with the wings losing their shine or any of that.


Most nights, my posts are brought to you by some sort of IPA and a heaping dose of sarcasm.
Success has a thousand fathers, failure is an orphan.
We not score, is hard to win. - Pavel Datsyuk #13


#80 Learn2LuvIt

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:31 AM

The past four days, I was actually surprised the Wings got as close to the finish line with either of these players. I think Suter and Parise both had a very heavy eye on going back home way before July 1st rolled around. It was going to take a mammoth effort/offer to get them to even look at other options. I think Parise played the re-signing with the Devils "card" out of respect and appreciation for his time spent there, but I don't think he ever intended to stay a Devil. Marty staying may have made him rethink for a nano second, but I think his mind was made up. Suter I believe the same. His talks with the Preds and Dave Poile were just out of respect. Heard on Sirius NHL this morning that Poile feels kind of the same way. Okay, so if they're not going to stay with their current teams, why not the Wings? I honestly believe what Kenny is saying is the main truth about this deal, and what both of the players are saying..."family wins". Wives and what is going to make them happy for the next 13 years, win. Mom and Dad-win. With parity in the NHL these days-any good team can win the Cup. So even if Kenny would have matched dollar for dollar...going home-Wins.

Again, I'm impressed that Kenny got an invitation from Suter and invited them into town last Friday to discuss. I believe the Wild decision in both their heads was a done deal....unless Detroit comes in and pulls their pants down with some outrageous offer that would be insane to turn down.

The Wings haven't lost their "luster", they just lost a deal(s) that they really didn't have a RESPONSIBLE shot at getting done. In fact....I think it's the Wings "luster", to the dismay of the Wild brass, that actually got Suter and Praise's heavy consideration....not to mention a face-to-face meeting at the 11th hour of the deal. So on Friday, where were all the other GM's that had very deep pockets and very high interest in Suter??? Not in Wisconsin.

my wife is calling me now...gotta head home.
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