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Ken Holland, Post-Scotty Bowman

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#1 blueadams

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:09 PM

Let's take a look at the resume' of one Ken Holland from July 2008 to now.

July 2008 is when Scotty Bowman left our then great organization to work alongside his son in the Blackhawks front-office (I'm not sure of the exact date, so I'll just include all the things that happened that month on Holland's post-Bowman resume'). There are those here who believe that Bowman's role in our organization as an advisor was not a large one, but I am certainly not one of those fans. I think that Holland having Bowman to go to for advice made a very significant difference in a lot of things around here; and I think that we should all at least take a look at Ken Holland's post-Bowman resume'.

Significant Draft Picks (that have played in at least one NHL game...the 2008 draft was in June):
-2009: Tomas Tatar (9 career games, 1 goal, 1 point)
-2010: Riley Sheahan (1 career game, 4 penalty minutes)
-2011:
-2012:


...10 games, 1 point and 4 penalty minutes out of our last three drafts (and 0 playoff games). That's not good. I know it takes time to develop young players in general. I know that we draft especially young players. I know that we like to take an especially long time to develop them. And I know that we've got some other potentially promising prospects in the system that we've drafted since then - Cale Jarnrkrok(2010), Teemu Pulkkinen(2010), Petr Mrazek(2010) and Tomas Jurco(2011). But still, it's not good. There are other NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009. And how much are we really expecting of the aforementioned prospects anyways? I won't hold this against Ken Holland for the reasons stated above, but his post-Bowman drafting has certainly not yet shown itself to be a positive. That much is fair.

Significant Free Agent Signings:
-2008/2009: M. Hossa, T. Conklin
-2009/2010: T. Bertuzzi, D. Miller, P. Eaves, J. Williams.
-2010/2011: R. Salei, M. Modano
-2011/2012: I. White
-2012/2013: D. Brunner, M. Samuelsson, J. Tootoo, J. Gustavsson

...Man, underwhelming, isn't it? The Hossa signing was a great one for sure. But it was him and his agent that sought us out, not the other way around. The Ian White signing I thought was great, but not an enormous impact-signing. The Bertuzzi signing was okay I guess. Salei was a solid signing, for the price, as a sixth D. Miller is a solid depth guy. Eaves would be, albeit an overpaid one, if he was healthy. Conklin was okay as a backup. Williams and Modano didn't pan out. The one's this off-season we'll have to wait and see on. But man, honestly, in the last five seasons White is really the only significant addition that we've made to the team through FA. Certainly a negative for Holland here thus far.


Significant Trades:
-2008/2009:
-2009/2010:
-2010/2011: V. Leino for O. Tollefsen
-2011/2012: 1st round pick for K. Quincey
-2012/2013:


...The Leino trade was obviously a horrific one. IMO, the Quincey one was a waste of a pick as well (he's not very..good). Certainly another negative for Holland here thus far.

Results:
-2008/2009: Stanley Cup Finals Losers.
-2009/2010: Second round exit.
-2010/2011: Second round exit.
-2011/2012: First round exit.
-2012/2013:


...Seems we're just getting worse and worse, losing more and adding less, with each passing season since Bowman left. Cooincidence? I think not.





*****





Here's a new way to evaluate Holland's performance here since Bowman left: How has he replaced what we've lost from the 2008 Stanley Cup Championship team he inherited? It might not be an all-inclusive method of evaluation, but it's certainly an angle that's at least worth looking at.

*Keep in mind that we're talking about the player we had IN 2008...and then what we have now.

Forwards:

J. Hudler----------D. Brunner. I'll have to see it to believe it, but from what we've been told, Brunner now shouldn't be much of a drop-off from Hudler of 08.

T. Holmstrom----------G. Nyquist. Very, very different players, but I really, really like Nyquist, so I'll dare to again say "not much of a drop-off."
K. Draper----------J. Abdelkader. Abby might never be what Draper was, but isn't much worse now than Draper was in 08...aside from faceoffs. Not much of a drop-off.
D. Drake----------T. Bertuzzi. Again, very different players. Drake did some things Bert doesn't. Bert does some things Drake didn't. Not much of a drop-off.
D. McCarty----------J. Tootoo. Tootoo's not the intimidator McCarty was, even in 08. McCarty wasn't the skater that Tootoo is. Not much of a drop-off.
K. Maltby----------D. Miller. See the Draper/Abdelkader comparision. Not much of a drop-off.
M. Hartigan----------P. Eaves. Probably the one instance amongst the forwards of actual improvement. Too bad it's the 14th forward.

Defensemen:

N. Lidstrom----------J. Ericsson. I won't even dignify this by attempting to compare.
B. Rafalski----------I. White. Not even close.
B. Stuart----------K. Quincey. Not really close.
A. Lilja----------B. Smith. Perhaps an improvement?
B. Lebda----------J. Kindl. How in the world do you not improve over Lebda in 4 seasons?
C. Chelios----------???


Goalies:

C. Osgood----------J. Howard. Not quite there yet. But not that far off either.
D. Hasek----------J. Gustavsson. Backup goalies don't matter enough to get into this one.


In general:

1) The forward group remains more or less the same, though older. I'd say that age has had more of a negative impact than development has had a positive impact.
2) The defensive group has been completely wiped out and not even close to replaced in most cases.
3) The goalies are more or less the same.


So, there you have it. That's what Ken Holland's done. Hasn't improved anything since he's been here. Has let us get A LOT worse on the back end. That's it. All there is to it. Bottom line. Period.

Edited by blueadams, 11 July 2012 - 02:14 AM.


#2 esteef

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:35 PM

Nah dude, Holland is God. We're just spoiled, entitled fans.

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#3 evilmrt

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:37 PM

Great analysis...and hard to argue with. I honestly had not thought of the Bowman connection. Holland does not look like the "best GM in the NHL" as many regard him as, post-Bowman.

That trade run-down is absolutely awful. Well, I guess he has this summer to finally make a good one :whatsthat:

#4 stillwater

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:46 PM

Why is he being graded for his time post-Bowman?

Bowman was nothing but a consultant, with little to do with the day-day running of the Wings from 2002-2008. For all intent and purpose he was essentially retired.

This is like grading him for what he's done since Lidstrom retired.

#5 blueadams

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:50 PM

Why is he being graded for his time post-Bowman?

Bowman was nothing but a consultant, with little to do with the day-day running of the Wings from 2002-2008. For all intent and purpose he was essentially retired.

This is like grading him for what he's done since Lidstrom retired.


you're entitled to your own opinion, of course. But I personally believe that having Bowman's voice in the building made a very significant difference on a lot of matters.

Edited by blueadams, 07 July 2012 - 01:51 PM.


#6 stillwater

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:57 PM

If his voice was in the building, it was echoing from a telephone somewhere other than inside the building at most times.

#7 Johnz96

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:18 PM

There are a lot of NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009

Name all the players drafted after our first pick since 2009 that are significant contributors

Let's take a look at the resume' of one Ken Holland from July 2008 to now.

July 2008 is when Scotty Bowman left our then great organization to work alongside his son in the Blackhawks front-office (I'm not sure of the exact date, so I'll just include all the things that happened that month on Holland's post-Bowman resume'). There are those here who believe that Bowman's role in our organization as an advisor was not a large one; but I am certainly not one of those fans. I think that Holland having Bowman to go to for advice made a very significant difference in a lot of things, and I think that we should all at least take a look at Ken Holland's post-Bowman resume'.

Significant Draft Picks (that have played in at least one NHL game...the 2008 draft was in June):
-2009: Tomas Tatar (9 career games, 1 goal, 1 point)
-2010: Riley Sheahan (1 career game, 4 penalty minutes)
-2011:
-2012:


...10 games, 1 point and 4 penalty minutes out of our last three drafts (and 0 playoff games). That's not good. I know it takes time to develop young players in general. I know that we draft especially young players. I know that we like to take an especially long time to develop them. And I know that we've got some other potentially promising prospects in the system that we've drafted since then - Cale Jarnrkrok(2010), Teemu Pulkkinen(2010), Petr Mrazek(2010) and Tomas Jurco(2011). But still, it's not good. There are a lot of NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009. And how much are we really expecting of the aforementioned prospects anyways? I won't hold this against Ken Holland for the reasons stated above, but his post-Bowman drafting has certainly not yet shown itself to be a positive. That much is fair.

Significant Free Agent Signings:
-2008/2009: M. Hossa, T. Conklin
-2009/2010: T. Bertuzzi, D. Miller, P. Eaves, J. Williams.
-2010/2011: R. Salei, M. Modano
-2011/2012: I. White
-2012/2013: D. Brunner, M. Samuelsson, J. Tootoo, J. Gustavsson

...Man, underwhelming, isn't it? The Hossa signing was a great one for sure. But it was him and his agent that sought us out, not the other way around. The Ian White signing I thought was really great, but not an enormous impact-signing. The Bertuzzi signing was okay I guess. Salei was a solid signing, for the price, as a sixth D. Miller is a solid depth guy. Eaves would be, albeit an overpaid one, if he was healthy. Conklin was okay as a backup. Williams and Modano didn't pan out. The one's this off-season we'll have to wait and see on. But man, honestly, in the last five seasons there really wasn't much, was there? Certainly a negative for Holland here thus far.


Significant Trades:
-2008/2009:
-2009/2010:
-2010/2011: V. Leino for O. Tollefsen
-2011/2012: 1st round pick for K. Quincey
-2012/2013:


...The Leino trade was obviously a horrific one. IMO, the Quincey one was a waste of a pick as well (he's not very..good). Certainly another negative for Holland here thus far.

Results:
-2008/2009: Stanley Cup Finals Losers.
-2009/2010: Second round exit.
-2010/2011: Second round exit.
-2011/2012: First round exit.
-2012/2013:


...Seems we're just getting worse and worse, losing more and adding less, with each passing season since Bowman left. Cooincidence? I think not.


Name players drafted after our first pick since 2009 that have been significant contributors

#8 stillwater

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:20 PM

How about just naming all the signifant contributions from Black Hawk picks since 2008.

#9 stevkrause

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:33 PM

Nah dude, Holland is God. We're just spoiled, entitled fans.

esteef

Admitting it is the first step

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#10 Marty Barry

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:33 PM

what is an eye opener fantastic


#11 pondrocket

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:41 PM

I don't fault Holland for drafts. The wings were in on Euro players long before Bowman & now the rest of the league is there. Everything else I agree with. Holland has not been viewed through a clear looking glass. Some have been complaining for years. Now more are considering the problems.

Let's see what Holland does. A we have no choice & B Holland made the mess now let him try to clean it up. We only have three players that would have meaningful value (Dats, Z & Kronner). Kenny can thank himself for not having much to work with. Where is Jimmy D on all of this?

I actually think Holland is fighting for his reputation & future opportunities right now. Doan & Semin would sure help!

Edited by pondrocket, 07 July 2012 - 02:40 PM.


#12 Carman

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:41 PM

So every bad personnel decision is Hollands fault, and every good one is Scotty Bowman's.

Got it.

#13 blueadams

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:42 PM

There are a lot of NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009

Name all the players drafted after our first pick since 2009 that are significant contributors



Name players drafted after our first pick since 2009 that have been significant contributors


Learn to read. I said I didn't hold it against him, while fairly stating that it couldn't be considered a positive at this point either.

#14 Johnz96

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:53 PM

Learn to read. I said I didn't hold it against him, while fairly stating that it couldn't be considered a positive at this point either.

You said
"There are a lot of NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009"
I said
"Name players drafted after our first pick since 2009 that have been significant contributors"
One of us is having a comprehension problem

#15 dragonballgtz

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:18 PM

There are a lot of NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009

Name all the players drafted after our first pick since 2009 that are significant contributors



Name players drafted after our first pick since 2009 that have been significant contributors

Looking at hockeydb doesn't look like many late round picks have been big contributors yet. The only one that stands out is Andrew Shaw for the Hawks. Red Wings prospects are picked to be good in 4-6 years unless they completely WOW the organization.

#16 Dominator2005

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:25 PM

Let's take a look at the resume' of one Ken Holland from July 2008 to now.

July 2008 is when Scotty Bowman left our then great organization to work alongside his son in the Blackhawks front-office (I'm not sure of the exact date, so I'll just include all the things that happened that month on Holland's post-Bowman resume'). There are those here who believe that Bowman's role in our organization as an advisor was not a large one; but I am certainly not one of those fans. I think that Holland having Bowman to go to for advice made a very significant difference in a lot of things, and I think that we should all at least take a look at Ken Holland's post-Bowman resume'.

Significant Draft Picks (that have played in at least one NHL game...the 2008 draft was in June):
-2009: Tomas Tatar (9 career games, 1 goal, 1 point)
-2010: Riley Sheahan (1 career game, 4 penalty minutes)
-2011:
-2012:


...10 games, 1 point and 4 penalty minutes out of our last three drafts (and 0 playoff games). That's not good. I know it takes time to develop young players in general. I know that we draft especially young players. I know that we like to take an especially long time to develop them. And I know that we've got some other potentially promising prospects in the system that we've drafted since then - Cale Jarnrkrok(2010), Teemu Pulkkinen(2010), Petr Mrazek(2010) and Tomas Jurco(2011). But still, it's not good. There are a lot of NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009. And how much are we really expecting of the aforementioned prospects anyways? I won't hold this against Ken Holland for the reasons stated above, but his post-Bowman drafting has certainly not yet shown itself to be a positive. That much is fair.

Significant Free Agent Signings:
-2008/2009: M. Hossa, T. Conklin
-2009/2010: T. Bertuzzi, D. Miller, P. Eaves, J. Williams.
-2010/2011: R. Salei, M. Modano
-2011/2012: I. White
-2012/2013: D. Brunner, M. Samuelsson, J. Tootoo, J. Gustavsson

...Man, underwhelming, isn't it? The Hossa signing was a great one for sure. But it was him and his agent that sought us out, not the other way around. The Ian White signing I thought was really great, but not an enormous impact-signing. The Bertuzzi signing was okay I guess. Salei was a solid signing, for the price, as a sixth D. Miller is a solid depth guy. Eaves would be, albeit an overpaid one, if he was healthy. Conklin was okay as a backup. Williams and Modano didn't pan out. The one's this off-season we'll have to wait and see on. But man, honestly, in the last five seasons there really wasn't much, was there? Certainly a negative for Holland here thus far.


Significant Trades:
-2008/2009:
-2009/2010:
-2010/2011: V. Leino for O. Tollefsen
-2011/2012: 1st round pick for K. Quincey
-2012/2013:


...The Leino trade was obviously a horrific one. IMO, the Quincey one was a waste of a pick as well (he's not very..good). Certainly another negative for Holland here thus far.

Results:
-2008/2009: Stanley Cup Finals Losers.
-2009/2010: Second round exit.
-2010/2011: Second round exit.
-2011/2012: First round exit.
-2012/2013:


...Seems we're just getting worse and worse, losing more and adding less, with each passing season since Bowman left. Cooincidence? I think not.



GREAT POST!!!

Edited by Dominator2005, 07 July 2012 - 04:31 PM.

"Some guys dream about scoring goals, or making big saves... I swear to God I dream about kicking ass in a hockey fight - no other way to say it than I love to do it, its who I am"... Brian McGrattan

#17 Wingzman91

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:28 PM

Just go follow Minnesota or whatever team you think is doing better than us than, everyone is sick of these stupid f@#$ing posts.

#18 beachwing

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:31 PM

So every bad personnel decision is Hollands fault, and every good one is Scotty Bowman's.

Got it.


True dat!! Duh! Holland is f***ed....no matter what he does all these armchair hockey experts will never be happy!

Edited by beachwing, 07 July 2012 - 04:32 PM.


#19 Dominator2005

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:33 PM

Why is he being graded for his time post-Bowman?

Bowman was nothing but a consultant, with little to do with the day-day running of the Wings from 2002-2008. For all intent and purpose he was essentially retired.

This is like grading him for what he's done since Lidstrom retired.



He wasn't just a consultant - when Detroit traded for Schneider it was his call, Holland didn't wanted to trade Avery... This was a Bowman's team... Kenny was a consultant to Bowman....
"Some guys dream about scoring goals, or making big saves... I swear to God I dream about kicking ass in a hockey fight - no other way to say it than I love to do it, its who I am"... Brian McGrattan

#20 The Axe

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:47 PM

Bowman was the hockey mind in Detroit.





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