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Guest Johnz96

The biggest difference in the Nashville series

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we have been missing a pure goal scorer since hossa. drake's enthusiasm drove the team to the cup in 08, hossa excitement drove to 09....since then...blah.

the suter/parise would have drove them this year...but....

the cornerstone to this teams success is motivation.

97 40 year drought...macarty etc...

98 konstantinov

02 hull/hasek ..etc..

08 drake

09 hossa

13 ????? this is the question holland needs to ask himself. (pssst. the answer is doan)

but this alone wont do it....we need cohesive pieces ala rouse/murphy to drive the D and a pure scorer (semin) to hit the timely goal.

my fix...sign doan & semin

trade for enstrom or yandle

lose emmerton/kindl/tatar/mursak and picks along with either franzen or fillipula ( those 2 hurt, but you have to give..eh?)

trade macdonald for a pick

sign brunnstrom for another 2 way.

long shot wish...evander kane may not want to return to winnipeg (rfa)

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

This is exactly how I remember it. The quality of chances the Red Wings had offensively were very limited. Nashville was very good at keeping Detroit to the perimeter and blocking shots. And yes, the team then had a bunch of defensive lapses themselves. Howard definitely wasn't the reason Detroit lost the series.

I wasn't saying that but Rinne was the main reason the Preds won

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sorry got off topic a bit....we lost the nashville series due to lack of motivation player (helm) and lack of pure sniper. 1.8 goals do not win a f**king thing.

sure.. a soft goal here and there happens.....a defensive lapse happens....but no one scores....that is unacceptable.

this season...if the ga is expected to rise...then the gf better get addressed.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

Our F and D S*** the B.

The really sad/funny/painful thing is, shooting from the perimeter was not an altogether terrible strategy, since Rinne gift-wrapped about 4,000 glorious rebound opportunities for us. Somehow, though, we failed to get to any and all of them (give or take a couple). Absolutely ludicrous.

That is why I think we really need a power forward and none were available this year (maybe Doan if he doesn't stay in Phoenix but not for 7.5 for 4 years). They were also more physical than the Wings

I think that our perimeter offense has been the problem in the playoffs for years. Yes, puck control and a shot advantage are useful in the aggregate in generating success. But the biggest difference now versus even in 1997 is the increase in blocked shots. It isnt even the same game anymore. The Wings set everything up from the point, and in the Playoffs, teams are more organized and motivated to shut down those shots. Maybe the loss of Lidstrom will have force us to scheme around getting to the net instead of setting us up for failure.

Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

A good power forward would help

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Guest Heaten   
Guest Heaten

I seem to remember Stuart and Lidstrom were both extremely underwhelming. I'm thinking Lidstrom played a year longer than he should have. As for offense, nobody was getting in the dirty areas to score and the team seemed to have no energy. I think DRWs seriously missed Helm.

Edited by Heaten

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I seem to remember Stuart and Lidstrom were both extremely underwhelming. I'm thinking Lidstrom played a year longer than he should have. As for offense, nobody was getting in the dirty areas to score and the team seemed to have no energy. I think DRWs seriously missed Helm.

I agree Stuart was underwhelming. Playoffs are usually when he elevates his game.

As for Lidstrom though, you have to remember he had a hairline fracture in his ankle that was hindering his play. He wouldn't even face it towards the shooter at the point, hence no pk time.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

Imagine how indignant people here would be if they could say we haven't won a Cup in more than decade and other than going to the SCF in 09 we have only won only 2 playoff series in the last 5 years (winning 5 series in 5 years is still a lot better than most teams)

Goaltending WAS the biggest difference, they were also more physical but other than that we were as good or better in every other regard.

Most of you who disagree would have said the same s*** of the 08 series against the Preds had we not replaced Hasek with Osgood

Your opinions are tainted by the end result

Edited by Johnz96

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Had pekka been hung out to dry the way Howard was, he would not have looked so good. Having weber/suter in front of him 30 minutes every game makes pekka look very good. Huge preds fan, I love pekka but having watched every game, pekka is just a part of a very good defensive system that just happened to have the best D pair in the league. Plus all the intangibles were there for Nashville in that series, preds were pumped to have the wings coming in at a time when all the momentum favored the preds. It was a buzz saw for Detroit. The intensity with the preds players, coaches, fans was there. Nashville's letdown in round 2 was a mere formality. Saw it coming before round 1 was over.

In no way was Howard the reason

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Had pekka been hung out to dry the way Howard was, he would not have looked so good. Having weber/suter in front of him 30 minutes every game makes pekka look very good. Huge preds fan, I love pekka but having watched every game, pekka is just a part of a very good defensive system that just happened to have the best D pair in the league. Plus all the intangibles were there for Nashville in that series, preds were pumped to have the wings coming in at a time when all the momentum favored the preds. It was a buzz saw for Detroit. The intensity with the preds players, coaches, fans was there. Nashville's letdown in round 2 was a mere formality. Saw it coming before round 1 was over.

In no way was Howard the reason

Yep, goalies are often times are only as good as the defense in front.

Phoenix is a good example, Bryzgalov was much better there than in Philly, and Mike Smith was able to step in and put up amazing numbers.

Minnesota - Backstrom's numbers were much better when they played a much more conservative defensive system.

Pittsburgh - Fleury has never been great in my mind, but Pittsburgh has had much better defenses than they did last season.

Howard is the type of goalie you really like in the salary cap era, he's not going elite money, but will put up top 5 numbers when playing in front of a good defense(First half of last year and rookie season)

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Howard started the All Star game and was a Vezina candidate until the injury bug got him yet hes the biggest difference between the two teams? After 20 years of blaming goalies you would think the fan base would smarten up and not always blame the goalie but alas most are still stupid. The biggest difference is the likes of Bertuzzi and Cleary having to pull a top 6 point production and a 4th line that is completely useless. Of course it couldn't have been one most prone defenses we've seen to lapses in many years. Sure it must be the goalie. You switch Rinne for Howard and I would put money down Nashville still takes the series. Rinne only had to stop shots from the outside and could kick juicy rebounds all series as the Wings never went to the net hard. Howard had guys in his face all series long. Look how Nashville fared when they had to play a team that drove the net. Rinne was exposed. But of course goal-tending is the biggest difference. The OP fails.

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If it hasn't been pointed out, the difference in the series was lack of goal scoring depth. The top 4 forwards on the Wings were pretty much canceled out and the rest of the forwards couldn't put a beach ball through a barn door.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

Howard started the All Star game and was a Vezina candidate until the injury bug got him yet hes the biggest difference between the two teams? After 20 years of blaming goalies you would think the fan base would smarten up and not always blame the goalie but alas most are still stupid. The biggest difference is the likes of Bertuzzi and Cleary having to pull a top 6 point production and a 4th line that is completely useless. Of course it couldn't have been one most prone defenses we've seen to lapses in many years. Sure it must be the goalie. You switch Rinne for Howard and I would put money down Nashville still takes the series. Rinne only had to stop shots from the outside and could kick juicy rebounds all series as the Wings never went to the net hard. Howard had guys in his face all series long. Look how Nashville fared when they had to play a team that drove the net. Rinne was exposed. But of course goal-tending is the biggest difference. The OP fails.

First of all I'm not blaming Howard. But Howard didn't play as good as he normally does and Rinne was even better than he normally is.

That's the nature of goaltending sometimes they're hot, sometimes they're not as good as usual and most often they are as good as they are, I guess you can say that all for positions but with goalies there is even more variance.

if Howard played as well as he did at the beginning of the season or as well as he did in the 10-11 playoffs I have no doubt we would have won even though Rinne was as hot as he was.

We did have trouble getting to rebounds a good power forward would have made a world of difference there

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First of all I'm not blaming Howard. But Howard didn't play as good as he normally does and Rinne was even better than he normally is.

That's the nature of goaltending sometimes they're hot, sometimes they're not as good as usual and most often they are as good as they are, I guess you can say that all for positions but with goalies there is even more variance.

if Howard played as well as he did at the beginning of the season or as well as he did in the 10-11 playoffs I have no doubt we would have won even though Rinne was as hot as he was.

We did have trouble getting to rebounds a good power forward would have made a world of difference there

If Howard played as well as Rinne did with the lack of scoring they would still be playing game one right now.

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

I seem to remember Stuart and Lidstrom were both extremely underwhelming. I'm thinking Lidstrom played a year longer than he should have. As for offense, nobody was getting in the dirty areas to score and the team seemed to have no energy. I think DRWs seriously missed Helm.

I think Nick wasn't fully healed yet and Stuart's mind was elsewhere So Smith and Kindl may even be better next year in the playoffs (if there is a next year in the playoffs) and I think Quincey will be better than he was after being more used to the Wings and playing on the right

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Goaltending is about the last thing you can blame for the Wings losing the series.

-The Wings were absolutely atrocious in their own zone. Turned the puck over way too much and couldn't cover anyone in front of the net. Howard had no chance on half the Predators' goals.

-The Wings' forwards were just as bad. They couldn't score in a house of ill repute with a truck full of $100s. They wouldn't go to the net to create in-tight scoring chances or battle for rebounds. They were smaller and slower than Nashville, and it showed, bigtime.

-The Predators were so motivated for that series. That team was built to beat Detroit. They succeeded. That may as well have been their Stanley Cup, because Phoenix walked all over them as easily as they walked all over us.

-The Wings appeared to not be motivated at all. Missing Helm was a part of that. Nobody else brings his energy. How many games in the regular season was Helm's line the team's best? (The answer is WAY TOO MANY!) But another part of that is, I get the sense that these players know they'll be here year after year, they aren't traded away, they are re-signed as long as they fit under the cap, and they aren't really forced out the door until it's painfully obvious they need to retire. If they don't win the Cup, a series, whatever, they think, oh, it's ok, we'll be back next year. There's no price to pay for underachieving, and that's what drives me crazy.

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Yep, goalies are often times are only as good as the defense in front.

Phoenix is a good example, Bryzgalov was much better there than in Philly, and Mike Smith was able to step in and put up amazing numbers.

Minnesota - Backstrom's numbers were much better when they played a much more conservative defensive system.

Pittsburgh - Fleury has never been great in my mind, but Pittsburgh has had much better defenses than they did last season.

Howard is the type of goalie you really like in the salary cap era, he's not going elite money, but will put up top 5 numbers when playing in front of a good defense(First half of last year and rookie season)

The problem with this is that he is not playing like a top five goalie at all. How many playoff games has he stolen for us since he was made the starter? Zero. In fact how many regular season games has he stolen at all? I'm not going to go back and count but I can imagine that the number can be counted on one hand. That's not "Top 5" caliber. Heck that's not even top ten caliber. Jimmy is the goalie that will have one or two really cool looking savings per game that all the fans will cheer and the announcers will go "OOOOH LOOK AT THAT JIMMY HOWARD". And then the rest of the game he's deflecting rebounds right back to shooters waiting in the slot.k Or he'll over play the puck and then have to dive back into the crease which will make a really awesome looking save, but one that was completely preventable in the first place.

The problem with Jimmy is not that he is average. Like I said earlier, you can do just fine with an average goalie. It's not that he's paid too much because right now he's being paid next to nothing. The problem is with this "top 5" attitude. He is not playing even close to that level and yet people seem to want to talk about him like he is. This of course is reflected in the front office's complete negligence of a defense.

Let's be honest, the Wings defense has been complained about for the last few years and it seems to be getting worse every time around. It's bad. When you combine an average goalie with a sub average defense, things are going to get messy. Now combine that with our EXTREMELY streaky offense and you're looking at a disaster scenario.

Was Jimmy the entire reason we lost against Nville? No. There is plenty of blame to be dished out to everyone on the time. But calling him a top 5 goalie? That has to be a joke.

Oh and one more thing that really bugs me. Saying "OH WELL JIMMY HAD NO CHANCE ON ALL THOSE GOALS" is a cop out. That's why elite goal tenders are elite. Because they DO stop those impossible redirections and one timers. Maybe it's luck. Maybe they are just that special. But they make those stops. And if you actually go back and look at the phoenix series, how many wrist shots from the top of the circle did Jimmy completely whiff on? I remember two crucial ones just off the top of my head. And even better, what about the one where he thought he had to play the puck in the corner. It's bad enough the defenders all goofed, but the goalie isn't supposed to be that far out ever. What was he thinking?

Edited by CrimsonFlame

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You don't watch much hockey if you have that opinion of Jimmy Howard.

The fact is Howard is a top 10 goalie in the league, and that can't be disputed. He was in the top 10 in both GAA and SV% last season.

The playoffs his stats suffered because of the amount of high scoring percentage defensive breakdowns the Wing's gave up. You're criticism is completely taking the blame off of the Red Wings team. Watch the Nashville series and just count the odd man rushes we gave up, I did the Red Wings gave up 20 more 2 on 1's, 3, on 1's and breakaways than Nashville gave up. Think about that for a moment and still tell me goaltending was the biggest issue.

Goaltending is reliant on the team in front of them to give them a clear view of the shot, clear rebounds and limit breakdowns, fact is the Red Wings struggled mightily in that area and that's the reason they lost. In the cap era you are much better signing a goalie like Howard and see if he can develop to be elite, than overpaying on an "elite" goalie like Luongo, Bryzgalov, Kiprusoff, Backstrom, Ryan Miller, Carey Price, Rinne, Lundqvist, Hiller, Thomas and Fleury which Howard had equal to or better seasons than.

Sure he's not Jonathan Quick, but Jimmy Howard is a very good option for the Red Wings. What realistic options would we have to improve there anyways? Would you even want Fleury? How about Luongo? How about Miller and his 2.55 gaa? Goalies are sporadic, and I believe it's much more important to improve the team in front of the goalie when your goalie is putting up top 10 numbers, because finding an improvement for that is going to be a long shot gamble.

Edited by Carman

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Guest Johnz96   
Guest Johnz96

You don't watch much hockey if you have that opinion of Jimmy Howard.

The fact is Howard is a top 10 goalie in the league, and that can't be disputed. He was in the top 10 in both GAA and SV% last season.

The playoffs his stats suffered because of the amount of high scoring percentage defensive breakdowns the Wing's gave up. You're criticism is completely taking the blame off of the Red Wings team. Watch the Nashville series and just count the odd man rushes we gave up, I did the Red Wings gave up 20 more than 2 on 1's, 3, on 1's and breakaways than Nashville gave up. Think about that for a moment and still tell me goaltending was the biggest issue.

Goaltending is reliant on the team in front of them to give them a clear view of the shot, clear rebounds and limit breakdowns, fact is the Red Wings struggled mightily in that area and that's the reason they lost. In the cap era you are much better signing a goalie like Howard and see if he can develop to be elite, than overpaying on an "elite" goalie like Luongo, Bryzgalov, Kiprusoff, Backstrom, Ryan Miller, Carey Price, Rinne, Lundqvist, Hiller, Thomas and Fleury which Howard had equal to or better seasons than.

Sure he's not Jonathan Quick, but Jimmy Howard is a very good option for the Red Wings. What realistic options would we have to improve there anyways? Would you even want Fleury? How about Luongo? How about Miller and his 2.55 gaa? Goalies are sporadic, and I believe it's much more important to improve the team in front of the goalie when your goalie is putting up top 10 numbers, because finding an improvement for that is going to be a long shot gamble.

I think having a young defense we will go through some growing pains especially early in the season they will learn from their mistakes and that we will have an added benefit when it comes time to negotiate a new contract for Howard

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You don't watch much hockey if you have that opinion of Jimmy Howard.

The fact is Howard is a top 10 goalie in the league, and that can't be disputed. He was in the top 10 in both GAA and SV% last season.

The playoffs his stats suffered because of the amount of high scoring percentage defensive breakdowns the Wing's gave up. You're criticism is completely taking the blame off of the Red Wings team. Watch the Nashville series and just count the odd man rushes we gave up, I did the Red Wings gave up 20 more than 2 on 1's, 3, on 1's and breakaways than Nashville gave up. Think about that for a moment and still tell me goaltending was the biggest issue.

Goaltending is reliant on the team in front of them to give them a clear view of the shot, clear rebounds and limit breakdowns, fact is the Red Wings struggled mightily in that area and that's the reason they lost. In the cap era you are much better signing a goalie like Howard and see if he can develop to be elite, than overpaying on an "elite" goalie like Luongo, Bryzgalov, Kiprusoff, Backstrom, Ryan Miller, Carey Price, Rinne, Lundqvist, Hiller, Thomas and Fleury which Howard had equal to or better seasons than.

Sure he's not Jonathan Quick, but Jimmy Howard is a very good option for the Red Wings. What realistic options would we have to improve there anyways? Would you even want Fleury? How about Luongo? How about Miller and his 2.55 gaa? Goalies are sporadic, and I believe it's much more important to improve the team in front of the goalie when your goalie is putting up top 10 numbers, because finding an improvement for that is going to be a long shot gamble.

Being top ten in numbers is great and all, but in the end it's just that. Numbers. And those numbers didn't translate into good playing during the nashville series. You're kidding yourself if you think he was playing great then. Even saying good would be pushing it. If you like him then ok that's your opinnion. But saying he is unarguably a top tier goalie couldn't be further than the truth. If he was then well we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

They had a few lucky bounces too and we didn't but if Howard was as good as Rinne and Rinne as good as Howard we probably would have swept the series

Rinne is one of the top three goalies in the league right now. Howard is top ten. Not every team can have a goalie like Rinne. And his skill is why he's being paid $7m versus Howard's $2.25m.

As for Howard, we ought to not forget that, for the first 30% of the season, he kept the Wings out of the basement.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

The problem with this is that he is not playing like a top five goalie at all. How many playoff games has he stolen for us since he was made the starter? Zero. In fact how many regular season games has he stolen at all? I'm not going to go back and count but I can imagine that the number can be counted on one hand. That's not "Top 5" caliber. Heck that's not even top ten caliber. Jimmy is the goalie that will have one or two really cool looking savings per game that all the fans will cheer and the announcers will go "OOOOH LOOK AT THAT JIMMY HOWARD". And then the rest of the game he's deflecting rebounds right back to shooters waiting in the slot.k Or he'll over play the puck and then have to dive back into the crease which will make a really awesome looking save, but one that was completely preventable in the first place.

I stopped reading here. The material was totally absurd. Apparently it has only taken you six months to forget that Howard was without a doubt the team's MVP for the first half of the season. His performance was Vezina-worthy during that time. He slowed down as a result of his multiple injuries, but he had an excellent season nevertheless. Likewise with his rookie season, in which he put up world-class numbers and was the single most important factor in the team making the playoffs. He had a rough sophomore season--this is hardly unusual for goalies--in 2010-2011 but bounced back in the playoffs. When has he stolen a game in the playoffs, you ask? How about game five against the Sharks? And had the Wings managed to score more than the whopping one goal they scored in each of game one and game two, those would have been stolen games also, as Howard was absolutely excellent in those.

I don't think anyone really considers Howard a top-five goalie. But he's easily a top-ten goalie. He gives the team the opportunity to win every night. He's most certainly the best regular-season goalie the Wings have had since the lockout, and he does his part in the playoffs as well. The problem in the most recent playoffs was the team putting Howard in positions in which he'd have had to make impossible saves. And the fact that they couldn't score was not his fault. He gave them the chance to win in every game, but they didn't do it.

I'll echo Carman and say that if that giant wall of text really describes what you think of Howard, I doubt you watch many Red Wings games.

Edited by Crymson

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

we scored 1.8 goals a game. But I will say this, Howard's save percentage was sub 90%.

Save percentage doesn't always tell the whole story. As Howard's teammates themselves confessed, they hung him out to dry on a regular basis in that series. If a goalie isn't seeing a lot of shots but is facing impossible-to-stop chances because of defensive muck-ups, then having a bad save percentage doesn't necessarily mean that he played poorly.

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Had pekka been hung out to dry the way Howard was, he would not have looked so good. Having weber/suter in front of him 30 minutes every game makes pekka look very good. Huge preds fan, I love pekka but having watched every game, pekka is just a part of a very good defensive system that just happened to have the best D pair in the league. Plus all the intangibles were there for Nashville in that series, preds were pumped to have the wings coming in at a time when all the momentum favored the preds. It was a buzz saw for Detroit. The intensity with the preds players, coaches, fans was there. Nashville's letdown in round 2 was a mere formality. Saw it coming before round 1 was over.

In no way was Howard the reason

I agree. It was Nashville's time to win. Your Preds were seriously motivated. Many were picking them to win it all. Detroit came into the playoffs struggling and Nashville did what a good team does... they never let Detroit get on a roll.

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