96 replies to this topic

[Red Wings Addict]

Years ago it didn't matter if the hit was deemed "clean", or "dirty"...You touch Gretzky - Semenko, or McSorley would come after you...Go after Stevie - Probert, Kocur, or Gallant would get in your face.

How times have changed.

Well that's what I wonder about in a way. Maybe players go after Kronwall after some of his hits because he's always against either skilled players or in general a team's point producers. The job of a top-four dman like Kronwall is to defend against a team's best players. Is the complaint that players shouldn't have to fight after a clean hit on a skilled player unjustified based on the game's history? Because like you said; in the past, if you inflict any kind of harm on a team's point producers then someone would get in your face. Has it always been that way and now all of a sudden we have a league-wide complaint about it that came out of nowhere? If it was that way for Yzerman/Probert-Kocur and Gretzky/McSorley then how or why are people so surprised about a retaliation these days when it happens after a big hit on a team's skilled players?

Now, I'm making a lot of assumptions here but I'm just wondering out loud.

[F.Michael]

Not really, unless he went after a star player.

Back in the 80s and into the 90s players actually accepted that a clean hard hit was part of the game. They'd take a number and get him back later.

Players jumping guys for throwing a clean hard hit is a relatively recent development.

My memory is far from exceptional...

From what I recall the "take a number" might have involved, an elbow, or high stick, or quite possibly a run along the boards as a form of retaliation for the previous hit...From there a fight might've ensued between the 2 players...Either way I found hockey more entertaining in terms of how "heated", or "emotional" a game could be...I'll never forget the look Chelios had on his face after Gallant beat the snot outta him (that's what Cheli got for 'messin' with Feds).

I do agree with ya concerning the "star" treatment; any form of physical contact could result in a meeting with one of the fellas mentioned earlier.

[haroldsnepsts]

My memory is far from exceptional...

From what I recall the "take a number" might have involved, an elbow, or high stick, or quite possibly a run along the boards as a form of retaliation for the previous hit...From there a fight might've ensued between the 2 players...Either way I found hockey more entertaining in terms of how "heated", or "emotional" a game could be...I'll never forget the look Chelios had on his face after Gallant beat the snot outta him (that's what Cheli got for 'messin' with Feds).

I do agree with ya concerning the "star" treatment; any form of physical contact could result in a meeting with one of the fellas mentioned earlier.

Don't get me wrong, the game would sure get a lot chippier. There just wasn't this automatic throwing off the gloves and jumping a guy right after the clean hard hit.

It ticks me off because it negates the advantage of throwing the hit, separating a guy from the puck and taking him out of the play. Instead of getting to take advantage play is stopped because of the mugging.

[F.Michael]

Well that's what I wonder about in a way. Maybe players go after Kronwall after some of his hits because he's always against either skilled players or in general a team's point producers. The job of a top-four dman like Kronwall is to defend against a team's best players. Is the complaint that players shouldn't have to fight after a clean hit on a skilled player unjustified based on the game's history? Because like you said; in the past, if you inflict any kind of harm on a team's point producers then someone would get in your face. Has it always been that way and now all of a sudden we have a league-wide complaint about it that came out of nowhere? If it was that way for Yzerman/Probert-Kocur and Gretzky/McSorley then how or why are people so surprised about a retaliation these days when it happens after a big hit on a team's skilled players?

Now, I'm making a lot of assumptions here but I'm just wondering out loud.

From my personal point of view - the game has toned down the physical/violent factor considerably when compared to what was the norm back in the 70's, and 80's.

5 on 5 "donnybrooks", and bench clearing brawls were fairly common back then...With todays rules in place, and a shift in the attitude of skill over physicality (courtesy of the Euro influence starting in the early 90's) we are wittnessing the results; skill overrules thuggery, and whenever we see any form of "payback" taking place - many viewers are shocked.

Again - just my personal opinion.

[haroldsnepsts]

How many times did konstantinov have to "answer" the bell after a clean hit?

Almost never.

He wouldn't skate away from anyone coming after him though.

[F.Michael]

To hillbilly, and harold.....I seem to recall Vladdy carried both his stick, and elbows in a rather high fashion.

He tooks his fair share of lumps, but going after Vladdy just might see yourself waking up in the trainers room

[haroldsnepsts]

To hillbilly, and harold.....I seem to recall Vladdy carried both his stick, and elbows in a rather high fashion.

He tooks his fair share of lumps, but going after Vladdy just might see yourself waking up in the trainers room

Agreed.

Vladdy wasn't really a fighter but he didn't fear anybody. And there was definitely a good chance you'd be chewing on some lumber or an elbow if you came after him.

[WorkingOvertime]

you're right I am arguing the mental aspect of the position enforcers are in causes more mental harm. I'm not discussing the injuries hitting verse fighting causes, I'm discussing deaths.

How many of these hits have caused suicides? I understand that it's not clear cut scientific data, but just from my personal experience and viewpoint it make sense to me that the enforcing position in hockey is very unhealthy much more-so than hitting, as evidenced by the death's of Terrence Tootoo, Trevor Ettinger, Don Sanderson, Boogard, Rypien, and Belak.

Who has died from a hit on the ice? I guess we can use heart illness that triggers from hits, if we do that we have one Markus Wächter, that died due to complications stemming from a bodycheck, but was later announced he had a heart illness. So over the same period of time it's a 6 to 1 ratio on deaths of fighters to non fighters.

The actual injuries from fighting are less than the actual injuries from hitting.

Most of the saddening examples you mentioned began before the players were drafted Depression, addiction, etc was involved in most of the cases. This is where causality enters the equation. Did these issues occur because the players were going to become/had became enforcers, or did these issues lead these men to become enforcers? Plenty of NHL players have sustained more substantial head injuries than most enforcers.

Personally, I would prefer fewer enforcers and more team toughness in hockey. IMO the game would be better if more than one or two people on each team could be counted on the stand up for themselves and their teammates.

[The Axe]

How many times did konstantinov have to "answer" the bell after a clean hit?

A few. But he did. He wasnt a great fighter, but he did it.

[The Axe]

http://m.youtube.com...erizon-us&gl=US

Clean hip check. Player wants a little pay back. Vlad goes. Everyone's cool 5 minutes later.

F%ck, I miss #16. He was such a bad ass.

[Doc Holliday]

http://m.youtube.com...erizon-us&gl=US

Clean hip check. Player wants a little pay back. Vlad goes. Everyone's cool 5 minutes later.

F%ck, I miss #16. He was such a bad ass.

It would be nice if your link wasn't messed up.

[The Axe]

It would be nice if your link wasn't messed up.

Damn. Sorry. Type in Konstantinov McTavish fight on youtube. Post it for me, will ya bud? Thx

[wingfan13]

In a perfect world, Kronwall would crush someone with a clean hit, then when some idiot dropped the gloves and went after him, Kronner would start throwing haymakers and drop that guy too. But he's just not that player.

Would I love him to beat the crap out of someone who expects him to fight for a clean hit? Yes.
Should he HAVE to fight for a clean hit? No.

This exactly.

[Z Winged Dangler]

i think of megadeth's "crush em" everytime....

i know...its a cheesy song. but it fits.

When i see guys get plastered through the glass i always think of Stone Cold's theme song done by Disturbed...Glass Shatters. Guys that don't get up and are woozy as all hell....please play anything but Chumbawumba!

[SidAbelsSon]

IMO, hits are a part of the game, that historically were punished if the hit were dirty. Nowadays, it seems that all hit's cause an altercation to be at least threatened. Two reasons as I see it. One is to take away from the flow (momentum) of the game a hit may cause, the other is the player that was hit feels a need to save face. Save embarassment... I tire of the attempt to fight after EVERY hit.

[Seraph]

I think part of it is because he is so good at what he does that it's hard to read the play as a clean hit in real time. I mean, one second your team mate is carrying the puck into the zone, then the next second he's clocked out convulsing Havlat-style on the ice. I guess the gut reaction is to stand up for your team mate. But like I said, you can't blame the guy for being good at what he does. You don't expect Datsyuk to answer the bell for being excellent at deking. Both are legal parts of the game.

You could argue that he should tussle with whoever challenges him, but I guess that's not his game. He skates away from the opposition and is justified by the fact that he is never suspended for his hits. Kind of smart actually. Keeps his record completely clean.

[F.Michael]

Wow, an overwhelming majority voted no. I shouldn't be too surprised since this is LGW but I didn't think the majority would be that big. Where's the staunch pro-enforcer crowd at eh?

It's still interesting to see that 9 out of every 10 fans don't think Kronwall should have to fight after his hits. Some good points by everyone though. I wonder how different the results would be if I had a "Sometimes" option. Oh well, too late for that now.

I myself didn't vote...If the "sometimes" option was made available - well that's what I would've voted for.

[newfy]

I myself didn't vote...If the "sometimes" option was made available - well that's what I would've voted for.

Thats the same with me. I dont think he should've fought after his Voracek hit for example but he has some like Kesler where he looks like hes head hunting pretty bad. Also getting Kesler off the ice for 5 minutes is an extremely fair trade off for the wings. I didnt vote for that reason, sometimes is my vote

[F.Michael]

Thats the same with me. I dont think he should've fought after his Voracek hit for example but he has some like Kesler where he looks like hes head hunting pretty bad. Also getting Kesler off the ice for 5 minutes is an extremely fair trade off for the wings. I didnt vote for that reason, sometimes is my vote

There are times though that I feel an opposing player may see his teammate ('outta the corner of his eye') getting drilled by Kronwall, and feel the hit may have been dirty, and feels the need to respond by going after Kronwall...The game is so fast today, and I can only imagine how different the game must be when being on the ice rather than on the sofa with a 50" HDTV capable of rewinding via the DVR.

I just wished the Wings had these sorts of fellas when Stewie took an elbow to the kisser from Kostopolous, or when Weber rammed Hank's noggin into the boards.

[The Axe]

There are times though that I feel an opposing player may see his teammate ('outta the corner of his eye') getting drilled by Kronwall, and feel the hit may have been dirty, and feels the need to respond by going after Kronwall...The game is so fast today, and I can only imagine how different the game must be when being on the ice rather than on the sofa with a 50" HDTV capable of rewinding via the DVR.

I just wished the Wings had these sorts of fellas when Stewie took an elbow to the kisser from Kostopolous, or when Weber rammed Hank's noggin into the boards.

I dont get why the Wings cant dress one tough guy. Its not like their bottom 6 is some elite scoring squad or something. Fricking Tomas Holmstrom.