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uk_redwing

[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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That's a great idea, but you are still not understanding what I am saying and it's not that complicated (it's no wonder you are so confused about this lockout mess).

The owners don't want to pay those salaries that's wha we are having a lockout, that is the purpose of the lockout, the raison d'etre if you will.

Your proposals are exactly what the players want, are what most of us who are against Bettman, the NHL and their lockout would like to happen

The "making whole" portion of these negotiations are just now becoming a priority. The HRR was the priority before. The contracts are just a piece, a major piece mind you, but a piece. Its like staying that the realignment, drug testing, and other categories are not potential hangups because they could be. Now that we have the HRR ironed out, getting to that HRR is key which is why the contracts are taking the front seat now.

You are right, the owners don't want to pay those out. I am merely saying there are options and both sides have to get in a room and negotiate. The owners have things the players want, so they should relinquish those things to get the contracts down if that is what it takes. I don't know what is going to be the final deal, but I am sure you and I both agree that a deal is there to be made.

To say that someone is "confused" would indicate that they don't know what the issue really is. I believe you and I have a good understanding of the problem and solution even more than the NHL or NHLPA does at this stage. Its widely accepted that two parties that could work together could have had this ironed out in a week or less. So, when you say I am confused about this whole lockout thing, it is about as insulting as me calling you a "NHLPA sheep". The point is that kind of classification can stay away from these discussions. What you pointed out was a "duh" statement. I believe we both know why the sides are stuck right now. Acknowledging that is the first step to fixing the problem. So where are the negotiations?

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And nobody ever said that managememnt weren't allowed to speak to players regarding the lockout, they are forbidden to speak to the media (us, where the money comes from) regarding league matters

Actually, yeah, management is not allowed to talk to the players, that's why they were 'granted permission' last week. I thought it was some sort of CBA bylaw, but apparently it's league sanctioned; if that post is even true.

There was an article I was reading about how Howard (I think it was Howie) was having a hard time not being able to talk to his buddy Osgood. They can't even go to birthday parties for each others' kids, the wives have to do all that.

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...Take existing contracts and lengthen them out so the money is paid out over a longer number of years. Every penny is paid out, but in a longer term, with interest.

Make owners pay out of their own pockets or by the teams as a whole to pay the players up front for the decrease in salary. So if it goes from 57% to 50%, then the owners have to pay those salaries out and they don't count towards the cap.

Just a couple ideas that I am sure will be bitched at, shot down, or otherwise dismissed by the NHLPA fans here. I have others, but the point is that everything is negotiable and the right deal can be made.

Do you realize that your second idea, "Make owners pay out of their own pockets or by the teams as a whole to pay the players up front for the decrease in salary. ..." is pretty much what the PA proposed in "option 3"?

It is also not a true 50/50 split right off the bat, as you tout it to be.

Edited by Buppy

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Take existing contracts and lengthen them out so the money is paid out over a longer number of years. Every penny is paid out, but in a longer term, with interest.

Make owners pay out of their own pockets or by the teams as a whole to pay the players up front for the decrease in salary. So if it goes from 57% to 50%, then the owners have to pay those salaries out and they don't count towards the cap.

Lengthen then how exactly? For example, if a player has 5 year contract would he still become free agent in 5 years? Or is it just the length of time over which value of the contract is payed out gets lengthened? It actually quite close to the third option proposed by NHLPA (including the bit about not counting portion of the existing contracts against the cap).

Sorry, missed your answer to the similar question earlier in the thread.

Edited by Pskov Wings Fan

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I sincerely hope that Uncle Gary's latest "cunning stunt" results in even more solidarity in the PA. The fact that he tried this is bad. The fact that it has been made public by the media is great.

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I sincerely hope that Uncle Gary's latest "cunning stunt" results in even more solidarity in the PA. The fact that he tried this is bad. The fact that it has been made public by the media is great.

Agreed. But at the same time, it also pretty much guarantees that this will drag out for a lot longer now, which sucks.

The fact that over the last week the NHL has tried shady underhanded stunts to try to bypass the NHLPA and influence players and/or possibly attempt to get insider union info from them, and rejected the NHLPAs proposals in mere minutes, without even giving them any consideration is not only a further huge wedge between the players and NHL, but even a lot of the players who were holding out some hope, now have likely lost what little trust they had left in the NHL after this past week and the events that have transpired.

Edited by sleepwalker

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NHLPA has requested to meet this week, but refuse to meet on NHL terms.

NHL refuses to meet without precondition.

Our season is going up in smoke as the days go on.

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It certainly is interesting to consider, but I'm not sure I buy it, to be honest. Bettman only needs 8 votes in his favor to ensure he isn't overruled, for the "Bettman's fault" theory to not be true, he would need 23 owners against him to force his hand. And since we already know that Jacobs (Boston), Leipold (Minnesota), Edwards (Calgary) and Leonsis (Washington) are solidly in Bettman's camp as well as the League-Owned Coyotes, that leaves Bettman only needing 3 votes to ensure that he gets the final say on the League's stance.

My best guess? Bettman has more than 8 owners in his court, but their support very well could be conditional on him doing everything he can to completely break the PA, and force them into only a deal of the League's offering.

yea i'm not sure i buy it either considering all the media spin going on during this lockout. but it does support my theory during this whole lockout that the owners are more to blame for this than bettman, which is why i think the whole idea of sacrifcing an entire season just to fire bettman is ridiculous.

NHLPA has requested to meet this week, but refuse to meet on NHL terms.

NHL refuses to meet without precondition.

Our season is going up in smoke as the days go on.

pretty much sums up this whole lockout. both sides want it thier way or the highway

Edited by chances14

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this from strickland

In reality, when you’re dealing with over 700 players it’s understandable if players have varying opinions on how things are being handled. Hell on the owners side you only have 30 Governors and it safe to assume not everyone’s on the same page there either.

It’s just the reality and sooner than later players will begin to speak out. I’m sure some owners would as well if they didn’t face stiff penalties set forth by the NHL....

The bottom line is some players would like to urge the Players Association to quickly present a proposal that will engage the league and get back to the negotiating table. There is a sense of restlessness growing among certain guys and the same can probably be said among some owners. This has led to some players reaching out to Donald Fehr on their own searching for answers.

it's from strickland so not sure how credible it is

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NHLPA has requested to meet this week, but refuse to meet on NHL terms.

NHL refuses to meet without precondition.

Our season is going up in smoke as the days go on.

Link? Source?

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NHLPA has requested to meet this week, but refuse to meet on NHL terms.

NHL refuses to meet without precondition.

Our season is going up in smoke as the days go on.

"@DarrenDreger: NHL remains firm, willing to negotiate with the PA by only working off NHL offer tabled last Tues. NHL wants next meeting to be an end pt."

News flash: this isn't negotiating! Both sides shoot negotiation in the face before they even get in a room together. Nothing is going to get done this way. They need to stop sniping at each other through the media and put on their f$&@ing big boy pants and sit down at a table together for more than 90 minutes. Bring in a mod if you have to, but stop tattling on the other guy for being the meanie.

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Darren Dreger@DarrenDreger

The union has offered to meet, but, unless PA is willing to work off NHL's offer, Daly says there's no reason to meet.

Darren Dreger@DarrenDreger

When asked if the CBA negotiation is about to go into a deep freeze, B. Daly said "I suspect so. Back to the drawing board. Unfortunate."

Tim Panaccio@tpanotchCSN

Bill Daly says given NHLPA position on league's last proposal and "unwillingness" to offer a new one, he's unsure why 2 sides would meet.

Michael Grange@michaelgrange

The #NHLPA has informed the #NHL they are willing to meet Wed or any other date, but without preconditions.

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Well Daily and midget your proposal is still a joke players don't gain anything from signing it.

1. Give up 7 % of their salary which is way too much, 52 to 48 would be fair for both sides.

2. On top of that giving up more rights, so they'd have to play for teams even longer just because they were unlucky enough to get drafted by a questionable team

3. That shouldn't even be possible legally, because even talking about changing existing contracts is a big showing the PA the fingers from the owners.

.

Who is responsible for stuff going wrong?

Owners for extending an undersized man, responsible for a lockout hattrick, allowing franchises in places that don't even know what snow means.

Want to fix mistakes? Start with firing the most hated person in hockey.

Sent from my BlackBerry

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No kidding. I believe that we have a grasp on what each side needs more than Fehr and Bettman do.

haroldsnepsts, you can be the NHLPA negotiator

I will be the NHL negotiator

Here is my first proposal.

50/50 split

We will pay all current contracts

3 year entry level contract limit

6 year contract limit

I want the new realignment plan as well

Any thoughts? :D

How can ypu [possibly say "pay all currnet cintracts" and argue that Bettman and the owners are not totally at fault for the lockout? I think that is whole rason there is a lockout to begin with, because the owners don't want to pay the current contracts

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Want to fix mistakes? Start with firing the most hated person in hockey.

firing bettman isn't going to end this lockout or solve much of anything except please the anti bettman crowd who are under the delusion that he is the sole creator of all these lockouts

also according to this article, the union knew about the 48 hour window on friday, not just today

The NHLPA was aware Friday - not Tuesday - that players were being contacted by owners.

That day, Mathieu Schneider issued an email to players entitled “Club Officials Contacting Players & Agents”. This is what he wrote:

In the last few hours we have heard about calls today from various club officials to players and agents to discuss the NHL proposal and bargaining. This is interesting, since our understanding has been that the League had banned club officials from talking to players since the beginning of the lockout.

If you get a call, or if there is anything you would like to discuss, please contact me. And, as always, please feel free to contact Don about anything, anytime.

Mathieu Schneider
Edited by chances14
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firing bettman isn't going to end this lockout or solve much of anything except please the anti bettman crowd who are under the delusion that he is the sole creator of all these lockouts

also according to this article, the union knew about the 48 hour window on friday, not just today

[/i][/b][/i][/b][/indent]

The issue of whether the PA found out about it Friday is neither here, nor there. The main issue is that the owners violated their own rules during the lockout, and went behind the unions back to contact players. All this does is cause more distrust between owners and union reps, and create more of a riff in bargaining. Instead of playing politics they need to sit down for 8 hours(a regular work shift for most working stiffs) and hash out their issues. I just want to watch hockey.

Edited by Euro_Twins

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And Patrick Kane has signed in the Swiss league with EHC Biel. This is shaping up to be an interesting league.

Patrick Kane@88PKane

Excited and thankful to join EHC Biel in the Swiss league. Looking forward to the experience

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From NHL:

Boston Bruins goalie Tuukka Rask suffered a slight groin pull during a Czech League game Tuesday.

Czech reporter Roman Jedlicka said via Twitter that Rask, playing for Plzen, left the game after one period.

"I slightly pulled my groin, it is not serious," Rask told Czech TV, according to Jedlicka's Twitter account. "I had groin problems last year so I took [a] little rest just for precaution."

From Sportsnet:

New Jersey Devils' defenceman Anton Volchenkov will be out for the next 4-6 weeks after fracturing his ankle in KHL action, according to a report from Tom Gulitti of The Bergen Record.

Too early for the "Injury Thread"?

“That’s a big no-no,” said Gilles LeVasseur, an expert in labour law at the University of Ottawa’s Telfer School of Management. “The idea of a union is to deal with one voice.”

“In a true labour-management relationship, this would be deemed as bargaining in bad faith by the employer,” said George Smith, a lecturer in labour law at Queen’s University and a former management-side negotiator for Air Canada and CP Rail. “I knew there was something up when they made the offer public, which again was a very aggressive move.

Welcome to Bettmanland, "Home of the Golden Rule".

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The issue of whether the PA found out about it Friday is neither here, nor there. The main issue is that the owners violated their own rules during the lockout, and went behind the unions back to contact players. All this does is cause more distrust between owners and union reps, and create more of a riff in bargaining. Instead of playing politics they need to sit down for 8 hours(a regular work shift for most working stiffs) and hash out their issues. I just want to watch hockey.

The distrust is already there. Both sides have not had a friendly past, that is for sure. This is why the leaders of the NHL and the NHLPA need to be fired. They need to get new leadership that won't be so combative. We already know that Bettman is one of the root causes, but Fehr has to go as well. The NHLPA hired him to be their Bettman. In the end, both of these leaders are leading us right where we thought we would go, to another lost season.

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The distrust is already there. Both sides have not had a friendly past, that is for sure. This is why the leaders of the NHL and the NHLPA need to be fired. They need to get new leadership that won't be so combative. We already know that Bettman is one of the root causes, but Fehr has to go as well. The NHLPA hired him to be their Bettman. In the end, both of these leaders are leading us right where we thought we would go, to another lost season.

Bettman and the owners want to renege on contracts they signed and offered in the first place and Fehr is fighting to get them what they are owed, which is what the players want him to do and you can't blame them for that.

Bettman has locked us out every time the CBA has expired to get what he wants for the new one.

Well Daily and midget your proposal is still a joke players don't gain anything from signing it.

1. Give up 7 % of their salary which is way too much, 52 to 48 would be fair for both sides.

2. On top of that giving up more rights, so they'd have to play for teams even longer just because they were unlucky enough to get drafted by a questionable team

3. That shouldn't even be possible legally, because even talking about changing existing contracts is a big showing the PA the fingers from the owners.

.

Who is responsible for stuff going wrong?

Owners for extending an undersized man, responsible for a lockout hattrick, allowing franchises in places that don't even know what snow means.

Want to fix mistakes? Start with firing the most hated person in hockey.

Sent from my BlackBerry

WE have to fire him and there is only 1 way to do it

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The NHLPA hired him [Fehr] to be their Bettman.

Nail. Head. The NHLPA brought in their own Bettman, and are *shocked* that it's come to this. They are like a couple of 3 year olds at a daycare, and a deal is never going to get done.

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Nail. Head. The NHLPA brought in their own Bettman, and are *shocked* that it's come to this. They are like a couple of 3 year olds at a daycare, and a deal is never going to get done.

Thats the thing. Sorry to say but there is not just 1 devil in this fight.

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Bettman and the owners want to renege on contracts they signed and offered in the first place and Fehr is fighting to get them what they are owed, which is what the players want him to do and you can't blame them for that.

Bettman has locked us out every time the CBA has expired to get what he wants for the new one.

Once again, if the players were making 43% and not earning enough of the pie, they would strike in a heartbeat in order to get a better deal. Billionaires or not, they are entitled to as fair of a deal as the players are.

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The distrust is already there. Both sides have not had a friendly past, that is for sure. This is why the leaders of the NHL and the NHLPA need to be fired. They need to get new leadership that won't be so combative. We already know that Bettman is one of the root causes, but Fehr has to go as well. The NHLPA hired him to be their Bettman. In the end, both of these leaders are leading us right where we thought we would go, to another lost season.

The thing is too, Bettman and Daly refuse to negotiate unless the Fehr brothers are nogotiating on their terms, off their proposal they tabled Tuesday and willing to make only minor changes. That is not negotiating, not at all. At least the Fehr brothers have tried to get in a room and hash it out, but the evil twins refuse to listen unless fehr says we want to accept your proposal but negotiate the "make whole" issue. That is why I am against Bettman, he consistently refuses to negotiate, while Daly says there is nothing to discuss. There is plenty to discuss.

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