• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Konnan511

2013 BlueAdams Where Are You, Line Thread

Rate this topic

261 posts in this topic

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion. Unfortunately for you, not all opinions are equally valid.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So are you saying you'd rather have Nyquist and Tatar on a line with say, Datsyuk, than Franzen and Bertuzzi? And you think they'd actually out perform those two over the span of a season?

I think they would most certainly out perform them, maybe not under goals because we know franzen can net 30/season. the problem is franzen will score 3 goals in a game against colombus that we were winning anyways and then not score for 2 weeks. I actually do like franzen, he just needs to have that same sense of urgency he has in the playoffs, in the regular season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nyquist and Tatar are MINOR league guys. Why even talk about them right now? Wait til they make the big club.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="joesuffP" data-cid="2339561" data-time="1358029843"><p>

Alright we all love Nyquist but no way is he a better option than Bert, Sammy, Franzen in the top 6. We're trying to win games here.</p></blockquote>

You make too much sense!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alright we all love Nyquist but no way is he a better option than Bert, Sammy, Franzen in the top 6. We're trying to win games here.

While bert and sammy have experiience and some skill left in the old bag, I disagree they are better. The nhl is a younger faster version. In order for the wings to keep up with other teams they can't have bert and sammy slowing down the top 2 lines, Franzen does that enough, we need more speed which Brunner can provide assuming he adjusts accordingly to our rink size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Euro_Twins" data-cid="2339616" data-time="1358048184"><p>

<br />

While bert and sammy have experiience and some skill left in the old bag, I disagree they are better. The nhl is a younger faster version. In order for the wings to keep up with other teams they can't have bert and sammy slowing down the top 2 lines, Franzen does that enough, we need more speed which Brunner can provide assuming he adjusts accordingly to our rink size.</p></blockquote>

Agreed. But its also BIGGER. Nyquist and Brunner are boys. Datsyuk hits like he's 325 lbs. cause he's a gym rat. Nyquist and Datsyuk wont last more than 20 games til they get some meat on them. 165-175 lbs = pathetic. Emmerton beefed up to 195. He knew what was up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you follow the griffins at all you would know Nyquist put weight on. Brunner will too, just like kronwall did, just like datsyuk did, just like everyone does. It's too bad emmerton didn't try gaining some skill while he gained weight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Euro_Twins" data-cid="2339616" data-time="1358048184"><p>

<br />

While bert and sammy have experiience and some skill left in the old bag, I disagree they are better. The nhl is a younger faster version. In order for the wings to keep up with other teams they can't have bert and sammy slowing down the top 2 lines, Franzen does that enough, we need more speed which Brunner can provide assuming he adjusts accordingly to our rink size.</p></blockquote>

Agreed. But its also BIGGER. Nyquist and Brunner are boys. Datsyuk hits like he's 325 lbs. cause he's a gym rat. Nyquist and Datsyuk wont last more than 20 games til they get some meat on them. 165-175 lbs = pathetic. Emmerton beefed up to 195. He knew what was up.

Both Nyquist and Tatar have beefed up and are both over 180 lbs now and stronger and it shows. Tatar is not only a top scorer and one of the best defensive forwards in the league but also very feisty, initiates contact and takes no s***. Players try to take advantage of his size and European background and he stands up for himself, he has had 2 fighting majors this year and 4 last,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339851" data-time="1358114531"><p>

Both Nyquist and Tatar have beefed up and are both over 180 lbs now and stronger and it shows. Tatar is not only a top scorer and one of the best defensive forwards in the league but also very feisty, initiates contact and takes no s***. Players try to take advantage of his size and European background and he stands up for himself, he has had 2 fighting majors this year and 4 last,</p></blockquote>

Both still not ready for the NHL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339851" data-time="1358114531"><p>

Both Nyquist and Tatar have beefed up and are both over 180 lbs now and stronger and it shows. Tatar is not only a top scorer and one of the best defensive forwards in the league but also very feisty, initiates contact and takes no s***. Players try to take advantage of his size and European background and he stands up for himself, he has had 2 fighting majors this year and 4 last,</p></blockquote>

Both still not ready for the NHL.

Both are better than anybody on the Wings other than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and maybe Brunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339867" data-time="1358119275"><p>

Both are better than anybody on the Wings other than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and maybe Brunner</p></blockquote>

Im sure the coach is holding better players back out of spite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339867" data-time="1358119275"><p>

Both are better than anybody on the Wings other than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and maybe Brunner</p></blockquote>

Im sure the coach is holding better players back out of spite.

He is not even getting a chance to look at them. They are being held back because of all the forwards we already have signed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Johnz96" data-cid="2339867" data-time="1358119275"><p>

Both are better than anybody on the Wings other than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula and maybe Brunner</p></blockquote>

Im sure the coach is holding better players back out of spite.

You need to do some research it seems, not only on just how working players into the system works but also apparently the red wings development process. we over-ripen for a reason, it's one of our biggest give offs in our developmental process. everyone gets on our ass about it, but it's just how we have worked and will continue to do so. Babcock doesn't "hold" players back out of spite, but sometimes you need to field players because of given situations. I'm going to try and explain to you about a situation that you may not like exactly, and I know i've tried to explain this to you numerous times, so i'll try to make it as easy as possible. Cory Emmerton is a great example for such situations as i'm trying to talk about. While Cory Emmerton found his spot on the roster last year, it was due to him being un-eligible for being sent down. If we were to send him down to the minors, he would have to clear waivers. Would he have cleared waivers? Absolutely not. Does this mean that he should be playing in OUR system? No. Cory Emmerton simply just doesn't fit what the Red Wings need, or want right now. Will he succeed with another team? Most likely. He is like a Leino. He just doesn't work with our system, but will flourish within another. Moral of the story, you don't throw a player and try to pass them through waivers if you know they are going to get picked up for NOTHING. Why would we allow another team to grab Cory Emmerton when we could use him as trade bait value? You simply don't do this. While I know you're going to sit there and say, but he played 71 games!! Yes, he played 71 games and also was the ONLY player on the roster that didn't get double digit ice time. We HAD to use him last season. I hope the best for Cory, but unfortunately he just isn't as good as the other players we have which will most likely lead to him being dealt or just not making an NHL career.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122DETSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary

Edited by evilzyme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="evilzyme" data-cid="2339979" data-time="1358180861"><p>

<br />

You need to do some research it seems, not only on just how working players into the system works but also apparently the red wings development process. we over-ripen for a reason, it's one of our biggest give offs in our developmental process. everyone gets on our ass about it, but it's just how we have worked and will continue to do so. Babcock doesn't "hold" players back out of spite, but sometimes you need to field players because of given situations. I'm going to try and explain to you about a situation that you may not like exactly, and I know i've tried to explain this to you numerous times, so i'll try to make it as easy as possible. Cory Emmerton is a great example for such situations as i'm trying to talk about. While Cory Emmerton found his spot on the roster last year, it was due to him being un-eligible for being sent down. If we were to send him down to the minors, he would have to clear waivers. Would he have cleared waivers? Absolutely not. Does this mean that he should be playing in OUR system? No. Cory Emmerton simply just doesn't fit what the Red Wings need, or want right now. Will he succeed with another team? Most likely. He is like a Leino. He just doesn't work with our system, but will flourish within another. Moral of the story, you don't throw a player and try to pass them through waivers if you know they are going to get picked up for NOTHING. Why would we allow another team to grab Cory Emmerton when we could use him as trade bait value? You simply don't do this. While I know you're going to sit there and say, but he played 71 games!! Yes, he played 71 games and also was the ONLY player on the roster that didn't get double digit ice time. We <strong class='bbc'>HAD</strong> to use him last season. I hope the best for Cory, but unfortunately he just isn't as good as the other players we have which will most likely lead to him being dealt or just not making an NHL career.<br />

<br />

<br />

<a href='http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122DETSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary'>http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122DETSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary</a></p></blockquote>

This is the biggest myth in all of hockey. When players are NHL ready and can make an impact that benefits the team more than an existing player, they get brought up. Its that simple. Smith wasnt "over-ripened". Nor were Z, D, or Franzen stuck in GR for 2 years? Hell no. The Boyd Devereauxs and Cory Emmertons get squeezed out when new guys who are legitimately ready come in. I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but Andersson is our next Grand Rapids guy. He will replace Cleary. Nyquist will follow next year when he's bigger and Bert is on his way out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="evilzyme" data-cid="2339979" data-time="1358180861"><p>

<br />

You need to do some research it seems, not only on just how working players into the system works but also apparently the red wings development process. we over-ripen for a reason, it's one of our biggest give offs in our developmental process. everyone gets on our ass about it, but it's just how we have worked and will continue to do so. Babcock doesn't "hold" players back out of spite, but sometimes you need to field players because of given situations. I'm going to try and explain to you about a situation that you may not like exactly, and I know i've tried to explain this to you numerous times, so i'll try to make it as easy as possible. Cory Emmerton is a great example for such situations as i'm trying to talk about. While Cory Emmerton found his spot on the roster last year, it was due to him being un-eligible for being sent down. If we were to send him down to the minors, he would have to clear waivers. Would he have cleared waivers? Absolutely not. Does this mean that he should be playing in OUR system? No. Cory Emmerton simply just doesn't fit what the Red Wings need, or want right now. Will he succeed with another team? Most likely. He is like a Leino. He just doesn't work with our system, but will flourish within another. Moral of the story, you don't throw a player and try to pass them through waivers if you know they are going to get picked up for NOTHING. Why would we allow another team to grab Cory Emmerton when we could use him as trade bait value? You simply don't do this. While I know you're going to sit there and say, but he played 71 games!! Yes, he played 71 games and also was the ONLY player on the roster that didn't get double digit ice time. We <strong class='bbc'>HAD</strong> to use him last season. I hope the best for Cory, but unfortunately he just isn't as good as the other players we have which will most likely lead to him being dealt or just not making an NHL career.<br />

<br />

<br />

<a href='http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122DETSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary'>http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122DETSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary</a></p></blockquote>

This is the biggest myth in all of hockey. When players are NHL ready and can make an impact that benefits the team more than an existing player, they get brought up. Its that simple. Smith wasnt "over-ripened". Nor were Z, D, or Franzen stuck in GR for 2 years? Hell no. The Boyd Devereauxs and Cory Emmertons get squeezed out when new guys who are legitimately ready come in. I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but Andersson is our next Grand Rapids guy. He will replace Cleary. Nyquist will follow next year when he's bigger and Bert is on his way out.

Our system has been a myth? What. Go tell our front office and development personal that their system has been a myth these past generations. Are their exceptions to this rule? Absolutely as there is for everything. Would we hold back Sidney Crosby if we had just drafted him and he showcased the maturity and skill to handle himself within the NHL? NO! Same situation for Zetterberg and Pasha, they earned their spots by showcasing what they had. They took the most of their opportunity. We also had a team that allowed for Pasha to be implemented within the system pretty flawlessly. If you honestly believe that this team "needs emmerton", he would have been utilized more. Unfortunately he was just wasting ice-time to allow for another forward to get some rest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simply put, if Nyquist or Tatar were as good as some around here seem to think, then there would have been no need to sign Samuelsson or Brunner. Coming into the free agency period we had two open spots on the top six with Bertuzzi likely being demoted and Hudler likely leaving. NEITHER of those two spots were filled by Nyquist or Tatar?

So, for all those who think these guys are ready to play in the top six, please explain to me why they weren't given the chance? Why sign two free agents to fill those holes if they guys you already have are better?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Simply put, if Nyquist or Tatar were as good as some around here seem to think, then there would have been no need to sign Samuelsson or Brunner. Coming into the free agency period we had two open spots on the top six with Bertuzzi likely being demoted and Hudler likely leaving. NEITHER of those two spots were filled by Nyquist or Tatar?

So, for all those who think these guys are ready to play in the top six, please explain to me why they weren't given the chance? Why sign two free agents to fill those holes if they guys you already have are better?

not that I personally think they are better than most of our lineup, because I feel like that's a really strong statement BUT i'll say this about the free agency. Why wouldn't we? When we have tatar and nyquist on 2-way contracts still, there isn't a direct need for them to be implemented within a 48-game season, or atleast this season. With the history of our development, we're going to over-rippen them and could use a season or two more to mature. Both of them added weight over this past off-season and had improvements in both of their games. I watched them and you can tell they got stronger and added in weight. The biggest complaint I had against nyquist last season was his weight. Anyways, back to the free agency. When we can keep both of these players in the AHL, what's the worst that can happen by signing on two vets? Especially one being on the gritty side which we needed. Sammy was apart of our cup run team and Holland sees something in him. I even feel something about sammy! Anyways, we could always deal out people and with them being both 2-way contract players, we don't have to lose 2 prospects if we don't want. So in final, either we picked them up for trade bait and/or security or we can just keep them within the system if they pan out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
not that I personally think they are better than most of our lineup, because I feel like that's a really strong statement BUT i'll say this about the free agency. Why wouldn't we? When we have tatar and nyquist on 2-way contracts still, there isn't a direct need for them to be implemented within a 48-game season, or atleast this season. With the history of our development, we're going to over-rippen them and could use a season or two more to mature. Both of them added weight over this past off-season and had improvements in both of their games. I watched them and you can tell they got stronger and added in weight. The biggest complaint I had against nyquist last season was his weight. Anyways, back to the free agency. When we can keep both of these players in the AHL, what's the worst that can happen by signing on two vets? Especially one being on the gritty side which we needed. Sammy was apart of our cup run team and Holland sees something in him. I even feel something about sammy! Anyways, we could always deal out people and with them being both 2-way contract players, we don't have to lose 2 prospects if we don't want. So in final, either we picked them up for trade bait and/or security or we can just keep them within the system if they pan out.

Well if the vets aren't as good as the prospects, as some here are arguing, then the you'd lose more games and possibly not make the playoffs. Again, if they were better they'd be playing. There was room for them, there was opportunity in the top six, but they aren't even being given a chance, why? Because they're not ready.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well if the vets aren't as good as the prospects, as some here are arguing, then the you'd lose more games and possibly not make the playoffs. Again, if they were better they'd be playing. There was room for them, there was opportunity in the top six, but they aren't even being given a chance, why? Because they're not ready.

I feel that's a stretch and dealing in a realm of unknowns when you say seeminly without doubt that they aren't ready. What we do know is Red Wings like to keep players in the minors longer than what's usually common in the NHL. I don't think that can be disputed much. Brendan Smith was ready to play last year, he played 14 games and had a .50 ppg. There is no doubt the team would have been better with him, but would he have improved as much playing 10-14 minutes a game, rather then 20 in the AHL? I personally don't know, but the Red Wings track record has leaned towards keeping players in the minors, even if they are "ready".

Sammuelsson is a good player, averages 40-50 points a year, has experience with the team, he's an insurance policy for us. Babcock can rely on playing him in a 3rd line role as he is a pretty good defensive player, he can play on the powerplay, he can play on the top line. Those are skills that a rookie player just aren't going to have usually, and that's why we signed him, he has versatility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about Dmitri Kulikov? Apparently he still hasn't reported to the Panthers training camp due to the fact that they haven't been able to sign him to a contract yet. I wonder how open the Panthers would be to trading him to the Wings...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="kipwinger" data-cid="2340032" data-time="1358190019"><p>

<br />

Well if the vets aren't as good as the prospects, as some here are arguing, then the you'd lose more games and possibly not make the playoffs. Again, if they were better they'd be playing. There was room for them, there was opportunity in the top six, but they aren't even being given a chance, why? Because they're not ready. </p></blockquote>

Its amazing how you have to explain common logic. For 5 years I have thought Holmstrom should have been replaced by a younger guy with more speed and better hands. The reality is that for 5 years, that guy hasnt presented himself to us. So Homer kept his spot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I feel that's a stretch and dealing in a realm of unknowns when you say seeminly without doubt that they aren't ready. What we do know is Red Wings like to keep players in the minors longer than what's usually common in the NHL. I don't think that can be disputed much. Brendan Smith was ready to play last year, he played 14 games and had a .50 ppg. There is no doubt the team would have been better with him, but would he have improved as much playing 10-14 minutes a game, rather then 20 in the AHL? I personally don't know, but the Red Wings track record has leaned towards keeping players in the minors, even if they are "ready".

Sammuelsson is a good player, averages 40-50 points a year, has experience with the team, he's an insurance policy for us. Babcock can rely on playing him in a 3rd line role as he is a pretty good defensive player, he can play on the powerplay, he can play on the top line. Those are skills that a rookie player just aren't going to have usually, and that's why we signed him, he has versatility.

I agree, Sammy has skills that rookies don't. If they could play a better all around game than Sammy then they'd be in the lineup and he'd be signed with another team. That's exactly my point, at this stage of their respective careers Sammy is a better player than Nyquist or Tatar. As is Cleary, as is Franzen, as is Bertuzzi. When Nyquist or Tatar crack the third line in a year or so, and develop a better all around game, then (and only then) will they be "better" than the vets and have a permanent spot on the top six. Just EXACTLY like what Filppula was required to do, for example.

As I said in another post, Filppula didn't earn his right to play in the top six until last season, yet for some reason people think Nyquist and Tatar are both ready to play there right now. And this is Filppula, a guy who, even before last year's breakout success, was noticeably better than either Nyquist or Tatar are right now.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree, Sammy has skills that rookies don't. If they could play a better all around game than Sammy then they'd be in the lineup and he'd be signed with another team. That's exactly my point, at this stage of their respective careers Sammy is a better player than Nyquist or Tatar. As is Cleary, as is Franzen, as is Bertuzzi. When Nyquist or Tatar crack the third line in a year or so, and develop a better all around game, then (and only then) will they be "better" than the vets and have a permanent spot on the top six. Just EXACTLY like what Filppula was required to do, for example.

As I said in another post, Filppula didn't earn his right to play in the top six until last season, yet for some reason people think Nyquist and Tatar are both ready to play there right now. And this is Filppula, a guy who, even before last year's breakout success, was noticeably better than either Nyquist or Tatar are right now.

Filppula wasn't as heralded as Nyquist coming into his first NHL season, though. I do agree that Nyquist and Tatar will have to earn their top 6 mins, which will be aided by the compact schedule and lack of training camp-- they're the 1st and 2nd call-ups from GR when the Wings need to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0