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Konnan511

2013 BlueAdams Where Are You, Line Thread

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Bert has not been the same since "The Incident." I don't know if he was on roids back then or what, but he is a docile puppy now. Talking about scoring points(or lack of) on our top line, you would think someone with the "scoring ability" of Franzen would score more than 56 points there too...nope, just another floater, but he has ZERO work ethic...Datsyuk needs a 50 goal scorer on his wing.

I cannot belive Bert is here for two more seasons and Franzine for 8...what a waste of money....at least it's only half a season this year...Franzine better get at least 50 points in this shortened season, maybe since its a sprint of a season, maybe he will have some drive to score everytime he is out there...I won't hold my breathe, but with him being the "sniper" on this roster, he needs to prove it.

:confused1:

What incident? Is there something I'm missing here?

Here's Babcock talking about Bertuzzi's work ethic...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/02/red_wings_happy_with_todd_bert.html

Here's Lidstrom...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_contin.html

Here's Ansar Khan...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/11/red_wings_scouting_report_miss.html

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_game-w.html

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2009/11/forward_todd_bertuzzi_looking.html

Babcock and Brad Stuart...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/11/todd_bertuzzis_emphasis_on_def.html

Where's the link that suggests he's a loafer again? Or is this some sort of unsubstantiated opinion of yours? If Babcock was being nice where are the articles where he (out of the kindness of his heart) goes on at length about how hard Franzen works?

If that's Babcock's opinion, it's no wonder this team hasn't gone anywhere the last few seasons. He needs to take his blinders off and look at the product on the ice.

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True, but Hossa is a sniper and Franzen was chosen over him to be our Sniper, then he signed the contract and has gotten lazy. I guess they were hoping that Franzen would lift his game each year, yet it has stalled and now he cannot even score on a consistant level. Sure he had 29 goals, but he seems to score 20 before December and then falls off, only to not be able to pick it back up in the playoffs. Like I said, I hope this short season he stays motivated and nets 20 goals among 40-50 points to truely take over as the scorer he was signed to be. I cannot take another 8 years of the last 3 from Franzen... Sorry but with the disposal of Hudler, Frazine has slid right into the top spot for hatred from me, with Kindl right behind him. Hopefully they both do something this year to change my mind...

He was not chosen over Hossa "to be our sniper". He was chosen over Hossa because at that point in their careers Franzen provided similar production for less money. Also because the Wings are typically loyal to those who perform well for them, which up to that point Franzen has. Again, you keep suggesting that the team expected him to be a sniper when the only person who feels that way is you.

:confused1:

What incident? Is there something I'm missing here?

If that's Babcock's opinion, it's no wonder this team hasn't gone anywhere the last few seasons. He needs to take his blinders off and look at the product on the ice.

Right, the most successful coach since the lockout should take pointers from you, good call.

Edited by kipwinger

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He was not chosen over Hossa "to be our sniper". He was chosen over Hossa because at that point in their careers Franzen provided similar production for less money. Also because the Wings are typically loyal to those who perform well for them, which up to that point Franzen has. Again, you keep suggesting that the team expected him to be a sniper when the only person who feels that way is you.

Right, the most successful coach since the lockout should take pointers from you, good call.

The last few seasons, he hasn't done that great a job. The team took too many games off last season and it doesn't seem like he got through to the players as much.

Then again, as I said earlier, Holland hasn't exactly done much to bolster this lineup. Babcock sounded unhappy after the last playoff loss, and stated this team was heading in the wrong direction. We're still headed in that direction.

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^ To be honest I don't consider Franzen to be a "power forward" either...To me that's an insult to Shanahan, Roberts, Clark, Tocchet, Nolan, etc, etc.

I agree, I'm not saying he's a great one. But that's the style of game he plays. Maybe a comparison to Mats Sundin's style of play is more comparable. Either way, he's no sniper and nobody every expected that out of him aside from some errant fans.

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Here's my wishful thinking lines, factoring in that some of the guys who have been playing hockey all year will have an advantage:

Nyquist - Datsyuk - Franzen
Filppula - Z - Brunner
Cleary - Helm - Sammy
Tootoo - Abdelkader - Bertuzzi
Scratches: Miller,Mursak
1st call-up: Tatar (he or Mursak could knock Cleary, Bert or Sammy down to scratch level due to their inactivity)


Kronwall - Quincey
White - Ericsson
Smith - Colo
Scratch: Kindl has to fight Colo for a spot after Carl gets back from his shoulder injury


Howard
Gus

Tatar and Mursak have good shots at pushing a veteran down the depth chart this season because both have been playing all season against professional competition. Tatar's having his best year so far (he's probably the most complete, hard-working player in GR right now) and he's playing the kind of puck-dog game that Babcock loves.



The short training camp and lack of a pre-season will definitely make the lives of the bottom six veteran guys much, much tougher (on every team). Expect some to severely underperform and others to get injured early.



The last few seasons, he hasn't done that great a job. The team took too many games off last season and it doesn't seem like he got through to the players as much.

Then again, as I said earlier, Holland hasn't exactly done much to bolster this lineup. Babcock sounded unhappy after the last playoff loss, and stated this team was heading in the wrong direction. We're still headed in that direction.

Without internal growth that won't change (and Holland knows that). When he lost out on the UFA sweepstakes he brought cheap veterans in who can provide insurance if the kids don't grow into top rolls.

If you think this team is in the position to trade assets for quick fixes you havent' looked at the ages of our top players. The Wings are in "reload" mode and not far from "rebuild" mode (entirely dependant on how Datsyuk and Zetterberg play as they continue to get older).

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Here's my wishful thinking lines, factoring in that some of the guys who have been playing hockey all year will have an advantage:

Nyquist - Datsyuk - Franzen

Filppula - Z - Brunner

Cleary - Helm - Sammy

Tootoo - Abdelkader - Bertuzzi

Scratches: Miller,Mursak

1st call-up: Tatar (he or Mursak could knock Cleary, Bert or Sammy down to scratch level due to their inactivity)

Kronwall - Quincey

White - Ericsson

Smith - Colo

Scratch: Kindl has to fight Colo for a spot after Carl gets back from his shoulder injury

Howard

Gus

Tatar and Mursak have good shots at pushing a veteran down the depth chart this season because both have been playing all season against professional competition. Tatar's having his best year so far (he's probably the most complete, hard-working player in GR right now) and he's playing the kind of puck-dog game that Babcock loves.

The short training camp and lack of a pre-season will definitely make the lives of the bottom six veteran guys much, much tougher (on every team). Expect some to severely underperform and others to get injured early.

Without internal growth that won't change (and Holland knows that). When he lost out on the UFA sweepstakes he brought cheap veterans in who can provide insurance if the kids don't grow into top rolls.

If you think this team is in the position to trade assets for quick fixes you havent' looked at the ages of our top players. The Wings are in "reload" mode and not far from "rebuild" mode (entirely dependant on how Datsyuk and Zetterberg play as they continue to get older).

I'm counting on your boy McCollum to save us in a few years.

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Bert, Sammy, and Cleary would all be "ok" in a top-6 roll, but would be AWESOME in a bottom-6 roll

Nyquist and Brunner would be at the very least "ok" in a top-6 roll, but would be TERRIBLE in a bottom-6 roll

Long story short, Goose and Brunner are in my top-6

Edited by number9

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Nyquist hasn't proven anything to deserve a roster spot over Miller imo.

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Nyquist hasn't proven anything to deserve a roster spot over Miller imo.

Nyquist and Miller are 2 very different players. Miller will never play top-6 but excels in the bottom-6. Goose is pretty much top-6 or bust.

Right now we have an abundance of Bottom-6 players...and that means players like Miller get forced out. Top-6 is more important than bottom-6.

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I agree. Barring injuries Nyquist will either compete for a top six spot or else stay in the AHL another year. Also, and I know a lot of people won't like this much, I don't think it's too out of left field to think he may get traded if he comes up and plays pretty well off and on this season. The guy is a great talent, but I'm not really sure what separates him from the pack of Flip, Z, and Pav in terms of what he can do on the ice. If those guys are all going to be around a few more years then why not pump his numbers up a little bit and trade him in a package for a top flight d-man or scoring winger?

Of course if Brunner is a bust then that obviously isn't an option.

Edited by kipwinger

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Well, whatever Franzine was signed to be, he has been a disappointment the last few seasons being it...

I really don't think 48-50 points in 50 games shoudl be too hard for someone like Z, Dats or even if Franzine gives 110% every game. Which, with every game being very important, unlike an 80 game season, every player should be putting up numbers that far exceed their 80 game average. There are no nights off this short season. If Keith Primeau can put up 42 points in 45 games last time we had a 48 game sprint to the playoffs, then the Omnipotent Franzine sure as hell should be able to get at least 40 in 50 games. He has be compared to Fedorov on these forums how many times? Well Fedorov, even for his lack of giving 100% all the time, netted 50 points in 42 games. The top three players on this team should have no issues netting 40-50 points in this sprint of a season...I betting the likes of Crosby, Malkin and Henrik Sedin will be getting at least 40 points....

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Im with the speed kills movement. Bert is way too slow. 38 pts with Pav and pp time is the bare minimum we should expect. 80-100 pts is what a good winger would put up. We are too kind to aging vets. Youth, size, toughness, and speed mixed in with thr talent. Kings proved that last year. Bertuzzi is Santa Claus on skates.

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In the 2008-2009 season in which Datsyuk scored 97 pts., Marian Hossa (all-star winger and actual sniper) only scored 63 pts. I don't know where this idea that Datsyuk can make some wingers into supermen comes from, I mean even Datsyuk's production is waning, so the likelihood that just playing on his line is enough to turn a good winger into a league leader is silly.

Crosby is one of the best centers in the game and his play doesn't turn wingers into 80-100 pt. guys.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="kipwinger" data-cid="2338491" data-time="1357665618"><p>

In the 2008-2009 season in which Datsyuk scored 97 pts., Marian Hossa (all-star winger and actual sniper) only scored 63 pts. I don't know where this idea that Datsyuk can make some wingers into supermen comes from, I mean even Datsyuk's production is waning, so the likelihood that just playing on his line is enough to turn a good winger into a league leader is silly. <br />

<br />

Crosby is one of the best centers in the game and his play doesn't turn wingers into 80-100 pt. guys. </p></blockquote>

71 pts in 74 games.

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Well, whatever Franzine was signed to be, he has been a disappointment the last few seasons being it...

I really don't think 48-50 points in 50 games shoudl be too hard for someone like Z, Dats or even if Franzine gives 110% every game. Which, with every game being very important, unlike an 80 game season, every player should be putting up numbers that far exceed their 80 game average. There are no nights off this short season. If Keith Primeau can put up 42 points in 45 games last time we had a 48 game sprint to the playoffs, then the Omnipotent Franzine sure as hell should be able to get at least 40 in 50 games. He has be compared to Fedorov on these forums how many times? Well Fedorov, even for his lack of giving 100% all the time, netted 50 points in 42 games. The top three players on this team should have no issues netting 40-50 points in this sprint of a season...I betting the likes of Crosby, Malkin and Henrik Sedin will be getting at least 40 points....

Scoring isn't going to increase because of a shortened season. GAA will remain at about the same it has been since the first lockout (under 6 goals a game).

Primau may have scored 42 in 45 after the first lockout but that is the same PPG as his previous year in which he scored 73 in 78 in 93-94. He even scored more than a point per game one season in Philadelphia

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In the 2008-2009 season in which Datsyuk scored 97 pts., Marian Hossa (all-star winger and actual sniper) only scored 63 pts. I don't know where this idea that Datsyuk can make some wingers into supermen comes from, I mean even Datsyuk's production is waning, so the likelihood that just playing on his line is enough to turn a good winger into a league leader is silly.

Crosby is one of the best centers in the game and his play doesn't turn wingers into 80-100 pt. guys.

Hossa had 71 points playing with Datsyuk...They complimented each other, Hossa had 40 goals and Datsyuk had 65 assists. Franzine had his best year that season at 59 points. The Red Wings need that 40 goal scorer, Datsyuk needs that 40 goal scorer. If Dats had that 40-50 goal scorer, he'd be back near or over 100 points. Datsyuk's game is waning because he doesn't have that type of player. When given the puck Hossa et al know what to do with it, seems like Franzine doesn't. Dats is declining because he has to play with Franzine and Bertuzzi most nights. If Dats had a Hossa or Malkin or Kovalchuk, things would be MUCH MUCH different...

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="kipwinger" data-cid="2338491" data-time="1357665618"><p>

In the 2008-2009 season in which Datsyuk scored 97 pts., Marian Hossa (all-star winger and actual sniper) only scored 63 pts. I don't know where this idea that Datsyuk can make some wingers into supermen comes from, I mean even Datsyuk's production is waning, so the likelihood that just playing on his line is enough to turn a good winger into a league leader is silly. <br />

<br />

Crosby is one of the best centers in the game and his play doesn't turn wingers into 80-100 pt. guys. </p></blockquote>

71 pts in 74 games.

And he didn't actually play much with Datsyuk. He scored 41 goals, might have hit 50 if he didn't miss games due to injury (would have certainly if he didn't miss games with injury and played more with Datsyuk)

Hossa had 71 points playing with Datsyuk...They complimented each other, Hossa had 40 goals and Datsyuk had 65 assists. Franzine had his best year that season at 59 points. The Red Wings need that 40 goal scorer, Datsyuk needs that 40 goal scorer. If Dats had that 40-50 goal scorer, he'd be back near or over 100 points. Datsyuk's game is waning because he doesn't have that type of player. When given the puck Hossa et al know what to do with it, seems like Franzine doesn't. Dats is declining because he has to play with Franzine and Bertuzzi most nights. If Dats had a Hossa or Malkin or Kovalchuk, things would be MUCH MUCH different...

Dats' production has declined, so far he hasn't.

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If Filppula can continue to get better and become the next Datsberg, that would be perfect and he could center the 2nd line.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Brunner

Nyquist - Filppula - Franzen

If Brunner doesn't bust that top line could be one of the most lethal in the NHL. The 80-100 pts people are talking about.

Edited by number9

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Nyquist hasn't proven anything to deserve a roster spot over Miller imo.

Watching him in his first game and every game since has proved it to me.

Datsyuk and Tatar are the new Euro twins. They are dominating the AHL with great 2 way play. Against the Barons last weekend, they totally shut down the young NHL stars on that team while being very dangerous offensively

We only have 3 forwards (possibly 4 if Brunner turns out to be as good as hoped) that are as good as Nyquist and Tatar are now (and if they work as hard as Datsyuk and Zetterberg did at improving on their deficiencies should be as dominant or almost as dominant in the NHL

Edited by Johnz96

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="number9" data-cid="2338499" data-time="1357666566"><p>

If Filppula can continue to get better and become the next Datsberg, that would be perfect and he could center the 2nd line.Zetterberg - Datsyuk - BrunnerNyquist - Filppula - FranzenIf Brunner doesn't bust that top line could be one of the most lethal in the NHL. The 80-100 pts people are talking about.</p></blockquote>

Hes more like Z, dont ya think?

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Nyquist hasn't proven anything to deserve a roster spot over Miller imo.

First of all, aside from how well he is playing in the AHL right now, did you not watch any of the games last season that he came in and played a top-6 position? He looked like someone who had been playing in the NHL for a few years, he has great senses, he is very responsible with the puck, soft hands, and he came in mid season jumping around the lines and still managed 7 points playing games here and there and never having time to really get chemistry going on any particular line. Put him in from the start and I will guarantee 40 points at least in his rookie season (82 games) or 20-25 points in 48 games.

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I'm counting on your boy McCollum to save us in a few years.

Ewwww... I'm a Mrazek fan if anything. He was unreal at the World Jrs last year and has been brilliant in GR this year.

Hockeymom1960 likes this

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Hossa had 71 points playing with Datsyuk...They complimented each other, Hossa had 40 goals and Datsyuk had 65 assists. Franzine had his best year that season at 59 points. The Red Wings need that 40 goal scorer, Datsyuk needs that 40 goal scorer. If Dats had that 40-50 goal scorer, he'd be back near or over 100 points. Datsyuk's game is waning because he doesn't have that type of player. When given the puck Hossa et al know what to do with it, seems like Franzine doesn't. Dats is declining because he has to play with Franzine and Bertuzzi most nights. If Dats had a Hossa or Malkin or Kovalchuk, things would be MUCH MUCH different...

Why are you still comparing Hossa and Franzen? Because they were both on the same team at the same time and because they were both free agents at the same time? They are not the same type of player and never have been. It's like comparing Lecavalier and Stamkos. If those two were free agents at the same time, and Tampa kept Stamkos and let Lecavalier walk, nobody would say that they kept Stamkos to be Tampa's new power forward.

Also, Datsyuk and Malkin play the same position, and are both much more dangerous with the puck than without it. They both can't have it at once.

I agree that the Wings need more shooters, but arguing that they should acquire a shooter by losing a power forward creates one hole while replacing another.

Now if you were to say "move Franzen and player X for Backes or Lucic" or someone like that, I would entertain your thoughts, because they are similar style players with varying degrees of success.

But at the end of the day, if you have a line which consists of a shooter-playmaker-shooter, or playmaker-playmaker-power forward, or power forward-playmaker-power forward, then you've got too many people on one line that do the same things.

Power forward-Playmaker-Shooter is the way to go. If you had a line of Datsyuk, Radim Vrbata, and Franzen it would decimate this league and wouldn't require an all star like Hossa or Kovalchuk either.

Edited by kipwinger
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