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Pomorie

How much is too much?

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You contradict yourself. Vinny for 4.5 is a really good deal when looking at the market. You look at Horton clarkson and Vinny. Vinny is the best deal by far. Also Weiss wants 4m someone said? That's a huge overpayment as he Is not that good.

While the 4.5 million per season for Vinny is a really good deal, the length of the deal and the full no trade clause are problematic. I do agree that Vinny is the best and most proven player of those mentioned but he is now unavailable. Fil and Weiss will get overpaid because they are viable centres in a weak free agent class. Horton and Clarkson have an ability to score goals and bring grit and physicality to the table and teams are always going to be in the market for such. As mentioned by others, free agency differs from year to year and really does depend on the needs of teams and who is available.

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Ken Holland and Jim Nill didn't think so.

And they're wrong. FACT. Vinny> clearly, Sammy, cola, too too.

While the 4.5 million per season for Vinny is a really good deal, the length of the deal and the full no trade clause are problematic. I do agree that Vinny is the best and most proven player of those mentioned but he is now unavailable. Fil and Weiss will get overpaid because they are viable centres in a weak free agent class. Horton and Clarkson have an ability to score goals and bring grit and physicality to the table and teams are always going to be in the market for such. As mentioned by others, free agency differs from year to year and really does depend on the needs of teams and who is available.

I bet he would of done 5m for 4 years.

You also got yo remember his five year deal is better thanost deals on our team and its better than what the likes of Horton or clarkson are looking for. Its all about market value and vinnys deal is a steal.

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I bet he would of done 5m for 4 years.

You also got yo remember his five year deal is better thanost deals on our team and its better than what the likes of Horton or clarkson are looking for. Its all about market value and vinnys deal is a steal.

I would have done 5m for 3 or maaaybe 4 years but to give an aging player a full no trade clause is questionable. I say this because having Vinny around for too long would eventually take away opportunities from Sheahan and Jarnkrok. I was big on having Vinny because he provides a dimension that this team lacks and at 33 and declining, he brings far more to the table than Fil ever has or ever will. Too bad it didn't work out.

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So you think it's a good idea to sign Clarkson at $6 million for 7-years and Vinny to a 5-year deal?

I think we need to consolidate some of the 16 forwards on the roster to obtain higher quality talent to help push us over the edge. I mean really 16 guys under contract (if Cleary and Brunner sign)?? Yes spend a little

money on one or two guys that are difference makers and you can pare down on some of the 16 reasonably priced guys.

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"Competitive monopoly" is a rather unique situation that appears in sports more so than other areas of the marketplace. I haven't seen anyone post about it yet, but it's really a big reason on why UFA prices can be so ridiculous.

For example; While there may be five 2C's that are capable of 25 goals 35 assists per year, there is only one Vinny Lecavalier.

If you want a Vinny Lecavalier on your team, the local Sporting goods store does not have five Vinny Lecavaliers on the shelf. There is only one in all of the world.

You could buy a Weiss or a Filp instead, but its not the same as a Vinny. Vinny Lecavalier has a monopoly on Vinny Lecavalier's. If you want one, you are going to have to bid against everyone else that wants one too.

When you have a monopoly on something,you are a price maker, not a price taker.

The salary cap was meant to level the playing field in regards to acquisition powers. It has proven to be kryptonite to Illitches checkbook and has taken the Mickey out of Hollands off-season. He has chosen not to overpay during UFA season. And I can't blame him. There is only so much pie to slice up for your team.

Quite honestly, the average fan simply doesn't understand this concept. I post quite a bit about money and financial aspects of sports, because that's what my background is in. Our fellow fans might be advertising specialists, HVAC installers, car dealers, registered nurses, personal trainers, etc. They would understand things that I don't and be able to explain them to me while I stare back like a deer in headlights. I might not understand the full impact an Achilles injury the way the trainer would or discuss the team's marketing plan the way the advertising specialist does; the same way they likely don't understand the business aspect of the sports world. I don't fault them and I certainly don't look down on them- we all have a better understanding of what it is we actually do day-to-day. Sure, anyone can play Be a GM Mode on NHL12, but playing arm-chair GM is a heck of a lot different than running a multi-million dollar business, which is a big part of Ken Holland's job. Hell, most posters have never even seen an NHL contract, let alone read every line. It's so easy to read the numbers on the ticker at the bottom of the TV screen, but it's so much more complicated than that. Even the salary cap is complicated- teams don't simply sign x number of players for y amount of money and come up with z salary total (x*y=z)... there's so much more involved.

That's why I try to stay out of financial discussions- I know that I know what I'm talking about, but a) I'm completely anonymous to everyone on here and b) I don't like being lectured to anymore than anyone else on here. It's hard explaining accounting and business concepts to people that don't do it everyday. But I want to commend you for this post, you did an excellent job of describing the general concept of free agency in the big four sports. I think many folks on here will be appreciative of it, even if they aren't in the financial world.

For everyone else: Just remember, free agency doesn't come down to whether or not Holland wants to pay x-dollars to b-free agent. So cut the guy a little slack, he's competing with 29 other teams over a laundry list of factors that go into each and every contract. It's not just a matter of whether Holland appreciates a player's value or not.

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Any team that is built to win or building to win will not obtain these players. The teams with cap space and money to burn will throw money at these players and effectively dilute the free agents across the league each year. We are now a drafting team and a hold onto our assets team.

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Any team that is built to win or building to win will not obtain these players. The teams with cap space and money to burn will throw money at these players and effectively dilute the free agents across the league each year. We are now a drafting team and a hold onto our assets team.

Teams that are built/building to win might acquire one of those players as a "final piece", not as a centerpiece.

Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Tootoo, and Gustavsson are more liability than asset. Ken Holland has always "hung on to assets", the last regular roster player he traded away was Slava Kozlov in 2001.

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I think we need to consolidate some of the 16 forwards on the roster to obtain higher quality talent to help push us over the edge. I mean really 16 guys under contract (if Cleary and Brunner sign)?? Yes spend a little

money on one or two guys that are difference makers and you can pare down on some of the 16 reasonably priced guys.

If by consolidate, you mean trade for a top-sixer in a 3-1 deal, I agree.

That's what Holland stated he was looking for. How about getting Jamie Benn out of the Dallas hell he's in. Good Canadian boy.

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i think you guys are looking at it all wrong. its not an issue of supply and demand. its an issue of cap circumvention. GM's still are not held accountable for bad contracts. sign a bad contract? bury it in the minors, loan the player to europe, amnesty buyout, regular buyout,place on LTIR for multipler years, etc etc... or even structure the contract to take advantage of the cap rules.

now, many of those things were taken care of in the new CBA. so maybe it will get better. but huge contracts to overrated free agents will immediately end once teams like NYR, PHI, TOR, and MTL don't have the cap room to offer insanely stupid contracts. but since players like redden, pronger, huet, and many others can get off the cap, free agency will continue to be stupid crazy.

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If by consolidate, you mean trade for a top-sixer in a 3-1 deal, I agree.

That's what Holland stated he was looking for. How about getting Jamie Benn out of the Dallas hell he's in. Good Canadian boy.

That's exactly what I mean. We have accumulated too many decent players at fair salary's (some not so fair). I'd gladly give up 3 of these guys to get a playmaker up front on our club.

The names aren't important to me, the talent is. Everyone whines about $6Mill per year yet we pay that to three guys, most of whom will ride the pine all year. We will play lowball games

with Brunner and lose him while securing Cleary for the next three years. I just don't get what we are doing.

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Quite honestly, the average fan simply doesn't understand this concept. I post quite a bit about money and financial aspects of sports, because that's what my background is in. Our fellow fans might be advertising specialists, HVAC installers, car dealers, registered nurses, personal trainers, etc. They would understand things that I don't and be able to explain them to me while I stare back like a deer in headlights. I might not understand the full impact an Achilles injury the way the trainer would or discuss the team's marketing plan the way the advertising specialist does; the same way they likely don't understand the business aspect of the sports world. I don't fault them and I certainly don't look down on them- we all have a better understanding of what it is we actually do day-to-day. Sure, anyone can play Be a GM Mode on NHL12, but playing arm-chair GM is a heck of a lot different than running a multi-million dollar business, which is a big part of Ken Holland's job. Hell, most posters have never even seen an NHL contract, let alone read every line. It's so easy to read the numbers on the ticker at the bottom of the TV screen, but it's so much more complicated than that. Even the salary cap is complicated- teams don't simply sign x number of players for y amount of money and come up with z salary total (x*y=z)... there's so much more involved.

That's why I try to stay out of financial discussions- I know that I know what I'm talking about, but a) I'm completely anonymous to everyone on here and b) I don't like being lectured to anymore than anyone else on here. It's hard explaining accounting and business concepts to people that don't do it everyday. But I want to commend you for this post, you did an excellent job of describing the general concept of free agency in the big four sports. I think many folks on here will be appreciative of it, even if they aren't in the financial world.

For everyone else: Just remember, free agency doesn't come down to whether or not Holland wants to pay x-dollars to b-free agent. So cut the guy a little slack, he's competing with 29 other teams over a laundry list of factors that go into each and every contract. It's not just a matter of whether Holland appreciates a player's value or not.

L....O....L

Don't be so modest...

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I dont want to hear it anymore. Its an assinine argument to discuss millions of dollars and whos worth what.

Proof: We had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, and White RIDING THE FREAKING PINE IN THE PLAYOFFS. That's 8.5 MILLION DOLLARS doing nothing for us. NOTHING. Isn't it obvious NOW that our GM is an imbecil? So let's keep our discussions to "who benefits us more" instead of "what can we afford". Im sorry for the capgeek thread. Thats obviously not a helpful tool, as our buffoon GM only looks for loyalty points and not value.

"5 million is too steep for Lecavalier."

You had White and Sammy on the bench, so how's that?

"6 million is too steep for Horton."

You had White, Sammy, and Tootoo on the bench, so how's that?"

Is there anyone on this planet that believes healthy Bertuzzi/Sammuelsson/White/Tootoo playing in place of Nyquist/Eaves/Colo/Miller gets us by the Ducks and Blackhawks? Hell no.

So we must all come to the logical conclusion - money/salary cap is being poorly utilized. The problem is NOT that we dont have enough.

FIRE HOLLAND. HE STINKS.

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I dont want to hear it anymore. Its an assinine argument to discuss millions of dollars and whos worth what.

Proof: We had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, and White RIDING THE FREAKING PINE IN THE PLAYOFFS. That's 8.5 MILLION DOLLARS doing nothing for us. NOTHING. Isn't it obvious NOW that our GM is an imbecil? So let's keep our discussions to "who benefits us more" instead of "what can we afford". Im sorry for the capgeek thread. Thats obviously not a helpful tool, as our buffoon GM only looks for loyalty points and not value.

"5 million is too steep for Lecavalier."

You had White and Sammy on the bench, so how's that?

"6 million is too steep for Horton."

You had White, Sammy, and Tootoo on the bench, so how's that?"

Is there anyone on this planet that believes healthy Bertuzzi/Sammuelsson/White/Tootoo playing in place of Nyquist/Eaves/Colo/Miller gets us by the Ducks and Blackhawks? Hell no.

So we must all come to the logical conclusion - money/salary cap is being poorly utilized. The problem is NOT that we dont have enough.

FIRE HOLLAND. HE STINKS.

Jesus. How hard is it to see that Samuelson, White, Tootoo, Bertuzzi, Quincey , etc are all signed to short term deals. Holland knows this. Is it a coincidence that Bert and Sammy's contracts are up next year when Ericcson's due for a raise, for example.

Clarkson, Horton, and Lecavalier all wanted minimum five year deals!!!! Understand? See the difference between those contracts and the guys I mentioned above.

I'm no Holland slappy, but use your friggin brain.

+ July 5th was Friday last time I checked.

Edited by rick zombo
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I dont want to hear it anymore. Its an assinine argument to discuss millions of dollars and whos worth what.

Proof: We had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, and White RIDING THE FREAKING PINE IN THE PLAYOFFS. That's 8.5 MILLION DOLLARS doing nothing for us. NOTHING. Isn't it obvious NOW that our GM is an imbecil? So let's keep our discussions to "who benefits us more" instead of "what can we afford". Im sorry for the capgeek thread. Thats obviously not a helpful tool, as our buffoon GM only looks for loyalty points and not value.

"5 million is too steep for Lecavalier."

You had White and Sammy on the bench, so how's that?

"6 million is too steep for Horton."

You had White, Sammy, and Tootoo on the bench, so how's that?"

Is there anyone on this planet that believes healthy Bertuzzi/Sammuelsson/White/Tootoo playing in place of Nyquist/Eaves/Colo/Miller gets us by the Ducks and Blackhawks? Hell no.

So we must all come to the logical conclusion - money/salary cap is being poorly utilized. The problem is NOT that we dont have enough.

FIRE HOLLAND. HE STINKS.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

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Jesus. How hard is it to see that Samuelson, White, Tootoo, Bertuzzi, Quincey , etc are all signed to short term deals. Holland knows this. Is it a coincidence that Bert and Sammy's contracts are up next year when Ericcson's due for a raise, for example.

Clarkson, Horton, and Lecavalier all wanted minimum five year deals!!!! Understand? See the difference between those contracts and the guys I mentioned above.

I'm no Holland slappy, but use your friggin brain.

+ July 5th was Friday last time I checked.

Well we did get some playoff value out of Quincey this last year all the others rode the bench collecting a salary KH signed them to while we lost to Chicago. Some of us would like to change what didn't work last year and perhaps get some production...Understand??

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I dont want to hear it anymore. Its an assinine argument to discuss millions of dollars and whos worth what.

Proof: We had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, and White RIDING THE FREAKING PINE IN THE PLAYOFFS. That's 8.5 MILLION DOLLARS doing nothing for us. NOTHING. Isn't it obvious NOW that our GM is an imbecil? So let's keep our discussions to "who benefits us more" instead of "what can we afford". Im sorry for the capgeek thread. Thats obviously not a helpful tool, as our buffoon GM only looks for loyalty points and not value.

"5 million is too steep for Lecavalier."

You had White and Sammy on the bench, so how's that?

"6 million is too steep for Horton."

You had White, Sammy, and Tootoo on the bench, so how's that?"

Is there anyone on this planet that believes healthy Bertuzzi/Sammuelsson/White/Tootoo playing in place of Nyquist/Eaves/Colo/Miller gets us by the Ducks and Blackhawks? Hell no.

So we must all come to the logical conclusion - money/salary cap is being poorly utilized. The problem is NOT that we dont have enough.

FIRE HOLLAND. HE STINKS.

You do realise that we have to have a 23 man roster, right? So you do realise that when everyone is healthy we will have 3 guys riding the pine at any time, right? And that those 3 guys are our back-ups in case of injury/loss of form, right?

Of course, we could have 3 guys who were cheaper, buy you do realise that they are likely to be much worse players, right? And that when they have to actually play they'll be worse than what we've got, right?

Or we could put 3 kids on the bench and waste away their development years by not actually playing them, but I'm sure this forum would be OK with that, right?

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Jesus. How hard is it to see that Samuelson, White, Tootoo, Bertuzzi, Quincey , etc are all signed to short term deals. Holland knows this. Is it a coincidence that Bert and Sammy's contracts are up next year when Ericcson's due for a raise, for example.

Clarkson, Horton, and Lecavalier all wanted minimum five year deals!!!! Understand? See the difference between those contracts and the guys I mentioned above.

I'm no Holland slappy, but use your friggin brain.

+ July 5th was Friday last time I checked.

It will be Cleary, Weiss, and a few other doorknobs next year and the year after. You act like Holland isnt going tk repeat his mistakes. Homstrom. Bertuzzi. Cleary. Old old old old old. Babcock gets it. Holland does not. It took an epidemic of injuries to all our numbnutz old guys last year for the organization to finally see that 22 year olds play better hockey than 38 year olds.

You do realise that we have to have a 23 man roster, right? So you do realise that when everyone is healthy we will have 3 guys riding the pine at any time, right? And that those 3 guys are our back-ups in case of injury/loss of form, right?

Of course, we could have 3 guys who were cheaper, buy you do realise that they are likely to be much worse players, right? And that when they have to actually play they'll be worse than what we've got, right?

Or we could put 3 kids on the bench and waste away their development years by not actually playing them, but I'm sure this forum would be OK with that, right?

Im not advocating having 3 guys who need minor leage experience sit in the pressbox. Im just saying we dont need 10 million in salary up there either.

White, Colo, Bert, Sammy, Tootoo.

What a waste.

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I dont want to hear it anymore. Its an assinine argument to discuss millions of dollars and whos worth what.

Proof: We had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, and White RIDING THE FREAKING PINE IN THE PLAYOFFS. That's 8.5 MILLION DOLLARS doing nothing for us. NOTHING. Isn't it obvious NOW that our GM is an imbecil? So let's keep our discussions to "who benefits us more" instead of "what can we afford". Im sorry for the capgeek thread. Thats obviously not a helpful tool, as our buffoon GM only looks for loyalty points and not value.

"5 million is too steep for Lecavalier."

You had White and Sammy on the bench, so how's that?

"6 million is too steep for Horton."

You had White, Sammy, and Tootoo on the bench, so how's that?"

Is there anyone on this planet that believes healthy Bertuzzi/Sammuelsson/White/Tootoo playing in place of Nyquist/Eaves/Colo/Miller gets us by the Ducks and Blackhawks? Hell no.

So we must all come to the logical conclusion - money/salary cap is being poorly utilized. The problem is NOT that we dont have enough.

FIRE HOLLAND. HE STINKS.

You know, maybe, just maybe, the cap era Red Wings aren't the team for you.

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Well we did get some playoff value out of Quincey this last year all the others rode the bench collecting a salary KH signed them to while we lost to Chicago. Some of us would like to change what didn't work last year and perhaps get some production...Understand??

Completely. We all want the team to be better.

But I wasn't talking about the production value/worth/quality of the the guys riding the pine. I was talking about how obvious it is that these guys that everyone complains about are all signed to short-term deals. We're only stuck with Bert and Sammy for one more year. ( for the record, I love Bert, hate Sammy)

People here complain about Franzen and the length of his contract. AXE being one of the head cheerleaders. Imagine tossing on a 5 year deal for Vinny @ 5M (he'd be 37 or 38 at the end of the deal) and a 7 year deal for Clarckson @ 6M + (he'd be the same age as Vinny at the end of the contract)

People moan about useless 36 or 37 year-old guys (Bert, Sammy) riding the bench and eating up a measly 5.5M in cap space? Imagine, in five years, having 26M in cap space tied up in 5 players (Z, Kronwall, Mule, Vinny, Clarkson) all over the age of 37?

That's all I was ever saying.

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Completely. We all want the team to be better.

But I wasn't talking about the production value/worth/quality of the the guys riding the pine. I was talking about how obvious it is that these guys that everyone complains about are all signed to short-term deals. We're only stuck with Bert and Sammy for one more year. ( for the record, I love Bert, hate Sammy)

People here complain about Franzen and the length of his contract. AXE being one of the head cheerleaders. Imagine tossing on a 5 year deal for Vinny @ 5M (he'd be 37 or 38 at the end of the deal) and a 7 year deal for Clarckson @ 6M + (he'd be the same age as Vinny at the end of the contract)

People moan about useless 36 or 37 year-old guys (Bert, Sammy) riding the bench and eating up a measly 5.5M in cap space? Imagine, in five years, having 26M in cap space tied up in 5 players (Z, Kronwall, Mule, Vinny, Clarkson) all over the age of 37?

That's all I was ever saying.

And then, according to these same people, Holland would extend older and slower Vinny for 3 more at $5.25m per.

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