• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Wings_Dynasty

Keep Tootoo, Drop Cleary

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Guest RedWingsDad

Yeah our 5'8" enforcer was going to strike fear in their hearts and change the series. They must have been so happy Tootoo sat out those games. Tootoo is worthless and a very poor signing. There's a reason he rode the bench, he was where he was supposed to be.

Facts.... they matter. He is actually 5'9" 199lbs and is willing and able to lay out some big hits... you know, the things that strike fear into opposing teams. durk a durk!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The last thing this team needs is one of our top D men in the box for a 1/4 of a period.

And this is a novelty in the NHL? As I said in the post, way better defenders than Ericsson in NHL history have logged tons of fighting majors.

I'm not asking him to fight 15 times this season, but he should be more willing to use his size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And this is a novelty in the NHL? As I said in the post, way better defenders than Ericsson in NHL history have logged tons of fighting majors.

I'm not asking him to fight 15 times this season, but he should be more willing to use his size.

Way better defenders may have logged tons of fighting majors, but it's a different game now. Relatively, he means a ton to this current team, considering the rest of the defensive corps. He's their best defensive d-man, and the PK isn't the same when he's not on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Crymson

I always chuckle at the obsession that some people still have with fighting these days. Hey, remember the time when enforcers were necessary to keep guys from running your stars? Gone. Remember the time when there was a fight ever game? Gone. Remember those guys who could both fight ably and put up a lot of goals? Gone. Believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, that era is over. Get past it.

Facts.... they matter. He is actually 5'9" 199lbs and is willing and able to lay out some big hits... you know, the things that strike fear into opposing teams. durk a durk!

"Strike fear," eh? We're talking about hockey here, not psychological warfare or the dark side of the force. These are professional athletes playing a sport; they are not fighting to the death in an arena. I doubt fear enters the equation.

And this is a novelty in the NHL? As I said in the post, way better defenders than Ericsson in NHL history have logged tons of fighting majors.

I'm not asking him to fight 15 times this season, but he should be more willing to use his size.

The operative word is "NHL history." This is not the 1980s, or the 1990s, or even the 2000s. You keep wanting for yesteryear's game, but you're not going to get it.

Edited by Crymson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest RedWingsDad

"Strike fear," eh? We're talking about hockey here, not psychological warfare or the dark side of the force. These are professional athletes playing a sport; they are not fighting to the death in an arena. I doubt fear enters the equation.

If you had read the scroll back for context, which I would recommend doing before posting a disagreeable post, you will find that it was the person I was quoting who mentioned the word 'fear', and I was simply playing off that. That being said, since I’m not interested in playing a semantics game with you... "fear" will work just fine for me when describing the dynamic that can cause a momentum swing when a big hit is laid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always chuckle at the obsession that some people still have with fighting these days. Hey, remember the time when enforcers were necessary to keep guys from running your stars? Gone. Remember the time when there was a fight ever game? Gone. Remember those guys who could both fight ably and put up a lot of goals? Gone. Believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, that era is over. Get past it.

"Strike fear," eh? We're talking about hockey here, not psychological warfare or the dark side of the force. These are professional athletes playing a sport; they are not fighting to the death in an arena. I doubt fear enters the equation.

The operative word is "NHL history." This is not the 1980s, or the 1990s, or even the 2000s. You keep wanting for yesteryear's game, but you're not going to get it.

There's still plenty of fighters and enforcers in the game. Not as much as before, but most teams carry some form of toughness. You make it sound every team logs 10 fighting majors per season nowadays.

Way better defenders may have logged tons of fighting majors, but it's a different game now. Relatively, he means a ton to this current team, considering the rest of the defensive corps. He's their best defensive d-man, and the PK isn't the same when he's not on it.

5 or 6 fights a season is hardly too much to ask for I'm just tired of seeing someone pushing our skilled players around after whistles and not having a big guy like Ericsson step in there and challenge the guy doing it.

Hell, if I was playing against the Wings, I'd shove Datsyuk and Zetterberg around all the time, knowing I don't have to back it up with my fists. Ericsson isn't going to scare people like a Probert, but it's still a big guy you'd have to fight against, versus not having to fight anyone for your actions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tootoo can fight. He's a fighter and he enjoys it. He's also decent as a 4th line guy, or at least not any worse than our other 4th line guys.

He doesn't have to fight every game to be effective as a fighter. He only has to fight when he's called on.

Kind of like retaining a lawyer if you know you're going to need one a few times a year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tootoo is a waste of $1.9 Million and roster spot IMO...hope Holland can swing a trade to be done with him. I know some of you love the fighters and I'm not against the gloves being dropped.

I'd rather see the money and the spot used to upgrade to a better defenseman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5 or 6 fights a season is hardly too much to ask for I'm just tired of seeing someone pushing our skilled players around after whistles and not having a big guy like Ericsson step in there and challenge the guy doing it.

Hell, if I was playing against the Wings, I'd shove Datsyuk and Zetterberg around all the time, knowing I don't have to back it up with my fists. Ericsson isn't going to scare people like a Probert, but it's still a big guy you'd have to fight against, versus not having to fight anyone for your actions.

But he's a guy who logs 20+ minutes a game. He's not an Engelland, Carkner or McQuaid. If he was their position, playing under 15 minutes a night, then sure... I'd expect him to add something else. In his current position, it makes way more sense to have Ericsson on the ice instead of in the penalty box.

Tootoo is a waste of $1.9 Million and roster spot IMO...hope Holland can swing a trade to be done with him. I know some of you love the fighters and I'm not against the gloves being dropped.

I'd rather see the money and the spot used to upgrade to a better defenseman.

While I agree that Tootoo is expendable, I'd actually prefer to see Samuelsson and Eaves go before him. Sammy has no distinct place on the team that can't be taken by a better or younger player, and at this point Eaves is a lesser skilled, injury prone version of Miller. While I don't think Tootoo has a ton of value, he brings something that neither one of those guys do. I still think it'll be near impossible to get rid of Samuelsson, but in an ideal world I'd move him before Tootoo.

And as far as upgrading defense, I actually don't think it's an issue at all. Every one on defense has a clear role (Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindl, Quincey), or is a young guy with potential (Smith, DeKeyser, Lashoff) looking to establish himself. While we certainly don't have the best defense on paper, I do think it's a very practical corps. They're a very good transition group - Sproul, Ouellet, Jensen, etc. will benefit from those younger guys getting experience now.

Edited by Jesusberg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tootoo can fight. He's a fighter and he enjoys it. He's also decent as a 4th line guy, or at least not any worse than our other 4th line guys.

He doesn't have to fight every game to be effective as a fighter. He only has to fight when he's called on.

Kind of like retaining a lawyer if you know you're going to need one a few times a year.

How many of his fights last season were those of the "staged" variety (opening faceoff, only due to his past history w/ a player, etc) instead of a fight that was actually precipiated by in game action or about changing the momentum of the game? Mostly what I can recall are the former which personally, I really don't see much value in. The only significant one I can remember of the "keeping the flies off" variety, to use Babcock's saying, was him stepping in to a fight that was already developing between another player & Ericsson, who had just dropped his gloves, when Tootoo stepped in & started throwing down.

It just might be a failing memory on my part, but I don't remember Tootoo providing much of any deterence/momentum changing fights at all of the ones he had last season. Feel free to correct me if I'm off here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many of his fights last season were those of the "staged" variety (opening faceoff, only due to his past history w/ a player, etc) instead of a fight that was actually precipiated by in game action or about changing the momentum of the game? Mostly what I can recall are the former which personally, I really don't see much value in. The only significant one I can remember of the "keeping the flies off" variety, to use Babcock's saying, was him stepping in to a fight that was already developing between another player & Ericsson, who had just dropped his gloves, when Tootoo stepped in & started throwing down.

It just might be a failing memory on my part, but I don't remember Tootoo providing much of any deterence/momentum changing fights at all of the ones he had last season. Feel free to correct me if I'm off here.

He started fights at the opening faceoff to spark his team a little. Not just because he had some vendetta against a particular player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But he's a guy who logs 20+ minutes a game. He's not an Engelland, Carkner or McQuaid. If he was their position, playing under 15 minutes a night, then sure... I'd expect him to add something else. In his current position, it makes way more sense to have Ericsson on the ice instead of in the penalty box.

So why was it OK for Derian Hatcher or Scott Stevens to drop the gloves in their eras? Was icetime for star defenseman somehow less important in those days? I don't think that has changed over history.

And like I stated, I'm not expecting him to fight as often as the guys you mentioned, so he won't be in the box that often. He just needs to fight occasionally out of necessity, especially if Tootoo won't be back and Holland won't fill that role with anyone else.

I'm not just picking on Ericsson. I'm hoping guys like Smith and Abdelkader will be more willing to defend their teammates also.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest RedWingsDad

How many of his fights last season were those of the "staged" variety (opening faceoff, only due to his past history w/ a player, etc) instead of a fight that was actually precipiated by in game action or about changing the momentum of the game? Mostly what I can recall are the former which personally, I really don't see much value in. The only significant one I can remember of the "keeping the flies off" variety, to use Babcock's saying, was him stepping in to a fight that was already developing between another player & Ericsson, who had just dropped his gloves, when Tootoo stepped in & started throwing down.

It just might be a failing memory on my part, but I don't remember Tootoo providing much of any deterence/momentum changing fights at all of the ones he had last season. Feel free to correct me if I'm off here.

He started fights at the opening faceoff to spark his team a little. Not just because he had some vendetta against a particular player.

It's not as if there was a vendetta opportunity and he didn't take it... as I’m sure he would have. Can't fault a guy for lack of opportunity.

Either way, I loved the "staged" fights too... and yes, they do swing momentum and get the bench fired up.

Edited by RedWingsDad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's still plenty of fighters and enforcers in the game. Not as much as before, but most teams carry some form of toughness. You make it sound every team logs 10 fighting majors per season nowadays.

i think the thing to remember is that most enforcers rack up all their fights against each other. the role of the enforcer may still exist on many teams, but the value is almost nill.

the entire concept of an enforcer is to protect your star player from getting run. yet the wings have a guy in kronwall that can make those bone crushing, career ending hits. yet when he makes one, its not like the enforcer comes out and does anything about it. i can't even find kronwall listed on hockeyfights.com! so what kind of deterrent is an enforcer when guys can do whatever they want out there with no fear of retribution?

another example would be that weasel matt cooke. we all remember that great photo of evander kane punching his face in. it was a classic. we all got a kick out of it. but did getting his face beat in (by a non enforcer for that matter) change the way he plays? not at all. dude is still as douchey as ever and takes runs at players all the time. and look at cookes fight history. a player as dirty as him should be regularly getting time with enforcers if they were actually doing their job. but on his career fight list you see names like kovulchuk and pominville, not crombeen, orr, etc.

so just how exactly are enforcers deterrents when they never actually deter? and lets be honest here, is there really even much of a role in 'changing the momentum' when 2 guys that are basically unimportant to the outcome of the game square off right at the start?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think the thing to remember is that most enforcers rack up all their fights against each other. the role of the enforcer may still exist on many teams, but the value is almost nill.

the entire concept of an enforcer is to protect your star player from getting run. yet the wings have a guy in kronwall that can make those bone crushing, career ending hits. yet when he makes one, its not like the enforcer comes out and does anything about it. i can't even find kronwall listed on hockeyfights.com! so what kind of deterrent is an enforcer when guys can do whatever they want out there with no fear of retribution?

another example would be that weasel matt cooke. we all remember that great photo of evander kane punching his face in. it was a classic. we all got a kick out of it. but did getting his face beat in (by a non enforcer for that matter) change the way he plays? not at all. dude is still as douchey as ever and takes runs at players all the time. and look at cookes fight history. a player as dirty as him should be regularly getting time with enforcers if they were actually doing their job. but on his career fight list you see names like kovulchuk and pominville, not crombeen, orr, etc.

so just how exactly are enforcers deterrents when they never actually deter? and lets be honest here, is there really even much of a role in 'changing the momentum' when 2 guys that are basically unimportant to the outcome of the game square off right at the start?

Cooke has been attacked by enforcers before, most notably Shawn Thornton after the Savard incident. I do think Cooke has changed his game since the Kane knockout. He doesn't play as dirty anymore.

I know if I was a Cooke or Shaw, I'd be less likely to go after players like Kronwall and Zetterberg after whistles, if the Wings had a tough guy who could beat the hell out of me for it. I don't know how much fear Tootoo instills in people, but I know he'd make me think twice, as opposed to being afraid of an Eaves or Emmerton, which I wouldn't be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest RedWingsDad

i think the thing to remember is that most enforcers rack up all their fights against each other. the role of the enforcer may still exist on many teams, but the value is almost nill.

the entire concept of an enforcer is to protect your star player from getting run. yet the wings have a guy in kronwall that can make those bone crushing, career ending hits. yet when he makes one, its not like the enforcer comes out and does anything about it. i can't even find kronwall listed on hockeyfights.com! so what kind of deterrent is an enforcer when guys can do whatever they want out there with no fear of retribution?

another example would be that weasel matt cooke. we all remember that great photo of evander kane punching his face in. it was a classic. we all got a kick out of it. but did getting his face beat in (by a non enforcer for that matter) change the way he plays? not at all. dude is still as douchey as ever and takes runs at players all the time. and look at cookes fight history. a player as dirty as him should be regularly getting time with enforcers if they were actually doing their job. but on his career fight list you see names like kovulchuk and pominville, not crombeen, orr, etc.

so just how exactly are enforcers deterrents when they never actually deter? and lets be honest here, is there really even much of a role in 'changing the momentum' when 2 guys that are basically unimportant to the outcome of the game square off right at the start?

Regarding your reference to Kronwall...it is not an enforcers job to fight someone who made a legal open ice hit. The effects of Kane punching Cooke in the face are not quantifiable.

You perhaps don't understand the role of an enforcer/agitator... it may include fighting, but doesn't have to. There wasn't a single fight in the Chicago series if I re-call but I think the Chicago players who were gooning it up (Bickell, Shaw(?)) definitely played a part in swinging the momentum that resulted in Detroit losing the series. I would have liked to have had our own guy out there... a Shanahan, McCarty, Downey, Tootoo to to give some back. Fact is, Tootoo is the only guy on our team right now who will do that... the rest of em act like emotionless automatons most of the time.

Long story short, I think an agitator who is willing to drop the gloves (Tootoo) is highly beneficial to a team... at the very least it's extremely entertaining to watch.

Edited by RedWingsDad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cooke has been attacked by enforcers before, most notably Shawn Thornton after the Savard incident. I do think Cooke has changed his game since the Kane knockout. He doesn't play as dirty anymore.

I know if I was a Cooke or Shaw, I'd be less likely to go after players like Kronwall and Zetterberg after whistles, if the Wings had a tough guy who could beat the hell out of me for it. I don't know how much fear Tootoo instills in people, but I know he'd make me think twice, as opposed to being afraid of an Eaves or Emmerton, which I wouldn't be.

Causation problem there: His play didn't change after or because of the Kane fight at all. Nearly a year after the Kane fight (April 10, 2010) is when he got his big suspension for the final 10 games of the season & the first round of the playoffs because of his elbow to the head of Ryan McDonagh. (March 20, 2011) Let's also take into account the knee hit on Ovie that he didn't get suspended for in February of that same season & then just a few days later he did get suspended for 4 games for a hit from behind on Fedor Tyutin. The league going after him with escalating suspensions, losing out on salary because of it, & his coach sitting him down in the off season to tell him to cut it out is what changed his game, not because of potential retribution on the ice from an enforcer or otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the inevitable fighting discussion, I think there's a distinction to be made between preventing all out cheapshots a la Matt Cooke, and being a deterrent to guys running around and agitating all game without having to answer for it. One example that comes to mind is when Bertuzzi fought Shane O'Brien twice in the same game against the Predators a couple seasons ago.

They were running the Wings all game. After that, not so much. Having a guy that plays 6 minutes a night to fight isn't as much of a deterrent anymore, but if you have someone playing fairly regularly who's also willing to drop the gloves, I think that absolutely can be a deterrent. Many times I've seen an agitator throttle back a little bit after the prospect of getting punched in the face becomes a real threat. It shows you won't be pushed around, and no one likes getting punched in the face.

Some thoughts from Wings players and coach after that Predators game, which I think explains the concept well.

Bertuzzi got the better of O’Brien in a pair of fights, which his teammates said gave them an emotional lift against a physical team that has had their number this season.[/size]

"That’s been going on for a while, those two guys," Detroit’s Danny Cleary said. "(Bertuzzi) plays through a lot of injury. To have a couple of fights tonight, with what he’s going through, says a lot about him.

"Sometimes a situation like that can really spark a team. We all know how hard Bert plays. We’re not a team that fights a lot. That’s an understatement. But certainly we had guys step up tonight."

"I just thought Bert had enough," Red Wings coach Mike Babcock said. "Fighting isn’t going to happen in the playoffs anyway, you just got to play hard. But I think more than the fighting, it’s just standing up for yourself, and getting involved in the game and winning loose puck battles. To me that’s what it’s all about."

Said Red Wings goaltender Jimmy Howard: "We’re not really known for guys dropping the gloves, but it definitely gave us a boost. You could just tell on the bench, guys were fired up."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/04/todd_bertuzzis_fights_with_sha.html

I think staged fights are mostly garbage. A side spectacle by enforcers who usually don't have much else to offer. But players sticking up for themselves and keeping from getting run, or the "keeping the flies off" as Babcock puts it, yes please.

That being said, I don't think Tootoo provides a ton of deterrent. He plays such a limited role on the team, I'm guessing because when he's most effective hitting and agitating is also when he's least effective defensively. And while he's a good fighter given his size, I don't think he puts the fear into many people, other than being afraid he'll suckerpunch you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bertuzzi was in against Anaheim. ducks started crap, Bert skated up, it stopped. I don't have an issue with Tootoo but I don't see him having that effect.

Duh.

Getting paralyzed is most certainly a deterrence.

Edited by GMRwings1983

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the inevitable fighting discussion, I think there's a distinction to be made between preventing all out cheapshots a la Matt Cooke, and being a deterrent to guys running around and agitating all game without having to answer for it. One example that comes to mind is when Bertuzzi fought Shane O'Brien twice in the same game against the Predators a couple seasons ago.

They were running the Wings all game. After that, not so much. Having a guy that plays 6 minutes a night to fight isn't as much of a deterrent anymore, but if you have someone playing fairly regularly who's also willing to drop the gloves, I think that absolutely can be a deterrent. Many times I've seen an agitator throttle back a little bit after the prospect of getting punched in the face becomes a real threat. It shows you won't be pushed around, and no one likes getting punched in the face.

Some thoughts from Wings players and coach after that Predators game, which I think explains the concept well.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2011/04/todd_bertuzzis_fights_with_sha.html

I think staged fights are mostly garbage. A side spectacle by enforcers who usually don't have much else to offer. But players sticking up for themselves and keeping from getting run, or the "keeping the flies off" as Babcock puts it, yes please.

That being said, I don't think Tootoo provides a ton of deterrent. He plays such a limited role on the team, I'm guessing because when he's most effective hitting and agitating is also when he's least effective defensively. And while he's a good fighter given his size, I don't think he puts the fear into many people, other than being afraid he'll suckerpunch you.

Your feelings towards tootoo have not changed since he was on nashville example what was bolded. Did he sucker anyone while playing with the wings so far? so you saying tootoo is pretty much worthless I feel you are not giving him a fair shake and really seeing what he brings and how he could help in games like the chicago series where the wings started to get bullied around because no one wanted to stand up. Tootoo played with a ton of heart every shift out there and if you and others didn't see that I'm not sure what else to say. He went non stop every shift hitting everything trying to score..trying to make plays. I compare him to Helm with his heart of the game. Like a lion. Of course he doesn't have helms skill really but I would take 100 players like that over players like miller,eaves or emmerton. There were a ton of times I didn't even know Miller or Emmerton was even on the ice. When Tootoo is out there everyone on the ice and in the stands knows he is there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your feelings towards tootoo have not changed since he was on nashville example what was bolded. Did he sucker anyone while playing with the wings so far? so you saying tootoo is pretty much worthless I feel you are not giving him a fair shake and really seeing what he brings and how he could help in games like the chicago series where the wings started to get bullied around because no one wanted to stand up. Tootoo played with a ton of heart every shift out there and if you and others didn't see that I'm not sure what else to say. He went non stop every shift hitting everything trying to score..trying to make plays. I compare him to Helm with his heart of the game. Like a lion. Of course he doesn't have helms skill really but I would take 100 players like that over players like miller,eaves or emmerton. There were a ton of times I didn't even know Miller or Emmerton was even on the ice. When Tootoo is out there everyone on the ice and in the stands knows he is there.

He didn't sucker anyone while on the Wings. He did dive and had a couple questionable hits, but really it's only the diving that bothered me. My point was he can hold his own in fights, which is impressive for a little guy, but I don't think many guys who drop the gloves fear squaring up with him.

And to clarify, I don't think he's useless, but in the way he fit on the Wings, he essentially was. I think Tootoo has often been a defensive liability when he's out there hitting, and with Babcock that means a lot of sitting on the bench. I also think people overstate his offensive potential here. He gets the occasional garbage goal around the net, but otherwise his only move is breaking down the right side and ripping a shot from near the faceoff dot.

I wouldn't take 100 players like Tootoo over Miller and Eaves, both those guys are big penalty killers, which is something Tootoo doesn't provide. That frees up Dats and Zetterberg from being on the PK as much. But I've always thought Eaves and Miller are so similar it would be nice to have someone who brought a more physical game in one of their spots. And Emmerton at this point is really just a plug.

I didn't hate him here on the Wings, but it was a bad signing. Overpayment for what he brings. And it's pretty obvious he's not the kind of player Babcock was looking for. And it's not like Babs shies away from guys who play gritty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really understanding the deal here since Cleary hasn't re-signed with the team and that likely isn't happening soon or at all.

Not sure how Tootoo plays in this mix as well since you likely have one Grand Rapids player that if he plays well is likely going to have a lot of playing time up here to start in Tomas Tatar.

With Cleary, it always amused me how much s**t he took on how people went off the deep end on him. Always busted his tail off and nevermind that he was the second leading scorer in the playoffs for the team this past season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With Cleary, it always amused me how much s**t he took on how people went off the deep end on him. Always busted his tail off and nevermind that he was the second leading scorer in the playoffs for the team this past season.

I can absolutely understand people's beef with Cleary. No one's saying he isn't a warrior and he doesn't bring it in the playoffs, it's just, my God, those knees! He falls down every shift. And pace has become an issue. And why, why, why do we - the mighty Red Wings - have a crippled Dan Cleary in their top six??

I love Postseason Cleary. I love that he produced the way he did this past run. I don't think it was "just luck," but I have real doubts about his ability to even finish a season at this point - even with his great peformance fresh in mind. It wouldn't be a wasted roster space, but...I think a guy like Tatar could give us more - especially since what we need more than anything else is goals. A guy like Tatar should be a shot in the arm.

The same is true of Tootoo, I feel. He's a spark plug. He can rally the troops, get them up, start a buzz, get the fans going, create something out of nothing. And, yes, he can fight. And, yes, he can hit like a freight train. If we lose him, we have all of no one who can really provide what he provides, and, depending on how things go in the Eastern Conference, that might be a big issue.

Overpaid? Yes. But I'd rather have him at a relatively steep price than not have him at all.

You want to have your bases covered.

Edited by Dabura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this