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StayClassy

How much do the Wings need another defenseman?

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99% of the people would trade smith because he is a valuable asset. and unlike on xbox, in real life you actually have to give up something to get something. so its not a matter of disliking him or giving up on his development, its just the reality of the nhl.

there are very few people out there that think smith should be traded because he stinks. unfortunately, one of them decided to make a thread saying so that stayed at the top of the list for weeks. made it look as if there were tons and tons of people losing faith in him. most posts in the thread were whining about overreacting, and the others were just advocating that smith be sat for a couple games and not traded.

Well my post was in response to the poster mentioning Sproul and Ouellet as potential top pair defensemen straight from juniors. But anyway, your point about giving up something good to get something good is fair, unfortunately I dont see any top defenseman that would be worth it, being available.

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I have been saying this for a good while now, but to me it's true:

The Wings biggest need is a bonafide numer 1 guy, who can make other players better. I am not talking about perfect human like - we will never see a player like him again :( - but if Kronwall (who I really really love when hes on his game), just doesn't cut it. Guys like Yandle wouldn't be a big improvement Holland needs to get creative and trade for someone yes, that means giving up some of the assets but that's the whole point you develop assets and try to use them for proven players.

Who might be available? Maybe a guy like Dion Phaneuf, Shattenkrik, Dennis Seidenberg (Bruins want to get younger) or a guy like Luke Schenn the guy is big, a stay at home guy and he throws big hits.

Granted all these players aren't ideal options but they would improve the defense significantly. It is hard to underestand, why so many people are already willing to trade Smith, the guy had one shortened season to play and did ok it's not Smith's fault, that people had unreal expectations for him.

There was an interesting thread recently on HFboards asking people to list their top-20 current defencemen. What I found interesting was it gave the perspectives of fans around the league on Kronwall not long after we had a thread on here asking where Kronwall ranked amongst current defenceman. Every poster on that list had Kronwall between 10 and 20. Which tells me several things.

Firstly, Kronwall is a bona fide #1 defenceman. If there's only 10-15 guys ahead of you in a 30 team league, you're a #1. Secondly he is not a franchise defenceman which is what too many posters round here mean when they talk about a #1, but there's only a handful of those guys - Weber, Chara. He's not even elite, but in that group just below. But that doesn't make him a bad player.

Our current D-corps sure throws into perspective the Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Stuart era and all the hate that Rafalski and Stuart got for "sucking".

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Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and 2. very hard to trade for because no one gives them away.

Yes Weber would be a great fit on our blue line. Big, fast, tough, RH shot, etc.... but he isn't available nor do we have the cap room.

After this season E and Q are both UFA's and free up about 7 million in cap space. Do we resign E? it will cost us 4.5-5 million per year to do it. if so, we don't have any room for another big name Dman. Our roster is full (2 players over) and we are cap tight.

In my humble opinion we really don't need a top tier Dman. Well maybe for a year or 2. but our system is full of great young Dman. 2 years from now we will have: kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, lashoff, Sproul, maybe E, Kronwall, and several other good young prospects coming. There is a good possibility that 2 years from now, Kindl and Dekeyser are the top pair with E/Kronwall the second. Leaving Smith/Sproul as the 3rd pair. That is a good group.

TBH I would hate to move one of these guys right now. Let them develop and enjoy the ride.

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Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and 2. very hard to trade for because no one gives them away.

Yes Weber would be a great fit on our blue line. Big, fast, tough, RH shot, etc.... but he isn't available nor do we have the cap room.

After this season E and Q are both UFA's and free up about 7 million in cap space. Do we resign E? it will cost us 4.5-5 million per year to do it. if so, we don't have any room for another big name Dman. Our roster is full (2 players over) and we are cap tight.

In my humble opinion we really don't need a top tier Dman. Well maybe for a year or 2. but our system is full of great young Dman. 2 years from now we will have: kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, lashoff, Sproul, maybe E, Kronwall, and several other good young prospects coming. There is a good possibility that 2 years from now, Kindl and Dekeyser are the top pair with E/Kronwall the second. Leaving Smith/Sproul as the 3rd pair. That is a good group.

TBH I would hate to move one of these guys right now. Let them develop and enjoy the ride.

After re signing the players we need to next year we should have about 8mil to sign some big name player, assuming Quincey, Bert, and Sammy don't get 're signed or alfie.

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Kronwall is a #1 d-man. Please stop saying #1 d-man when you mean elite d-man. They are two different things. You either draft those guys (and Sproul might get there) or throw a ton of cash and/or prospects to get them for the last half if their careers. The only other way to get one is hope a team loses patience with a kid and they trade him like Hartford did with Pronger.

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Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and 2. very hard to trade for because no one gives them away.

Yes Weber would be a great fit on our blue line. Big, fast, tough, RH shot, etc.... but he isn't available nor do we have the cap room.

After this season E and Q are both UFA's and free up about 7 million in cap space. Do we resign E? it will cost us 4.5-5 million per year to do it. if so, we don't have any room for another big name Dman. Our roster is full (2 players over) and we are cap tight.

In my humble opinion we really don't need a top tier Dman. Well maybe for a year or 2. but our system is full of great young Dman. 2 years from now we will have: kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, lashoff, Sproul, maybe E, Kronwall, and several other good young prospects coming. There is a good possibility that 2 years from now, Kindl and Dekeyser are the top pair with E/Kronwall the second. Leaving Smith/Sproul as the 3rd pair. That is a good group.

TBH I would hate to move one of these guys right now. Let them develop and enjoy the ride.

After re signing the players we need to next year we should have about 8mil to sign some big name player, assuming Quincey, Bert, and Sammy don't get 're signed or alfie.

Let's hope they throw big money at a big UFA the last time, the DetroitRedWings got a top UFAA was Hossa and only because he made it happening. The D needs help it's as simple as simple as that.

I would also give Sproul a bit of time and see how he does, before putting him into expectations he might never fullfill.

Sent from my BlackBerry

Edited by frankgrimes

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What is all this pitter-patter about giving the kids time? Are wanting a top defenseman now (because I want to win now and I think that, with the addition of a solid top-4 piece, we might actually have a shot) and "giving the kids a fair chance" somehow necessarily mutually exclusive?

Like GMR said - now is the thing. Now is the time is now.

Which isn't to say I don't want, or don't think, we can't dominate in the nearish future, with Sproul, XO, et al. on the horizon, and with Nyquist and Anderson and DeKeyser and Tatar and others starting to make some noise. It's just...we're talking a few years down the road away. Like, at least half a decade. And winning now (which, again, is the thing), doesn't necessarily mean selling the farm (especially since, y'know, our GM is supposedly a god among men).

Maybe we lose a future blue-line piece, but it's not like we're talking about throwing our future away. I mean, how would that work? Sather wold ask for all of our future talent in exchange for Dan Girardi?

Edited by Dabura
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I realize "Give the kids a chance!" refers not just to the kids in the pipeline but also the ones that've already made their way to the big club. But my point still stands.

We need a top-4 defenseman. We have a ton of young talent in the pipeline, and some key young pieces on the team already. Maybe we have to part with a juicy prospect to get that top-4 defenseman. Maybe - *gasp* - we have to cut ties with two young guns to get that top-4 defenseman. But that's how trading works. You give some to get some. And I think, given our situation, giving some (potentially potentially-great-young-talent) to get a much-needed (in the here and now, i.e. while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still with us) high-end defenseman makes a lot of sense.

(For the record, I think a guy like DeKeyser is pretty much untouchable.)

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I realize "Give the kids a chance!" refers not just to the kids in the pipeline but also the ones that've already made their way to the big club. But my point still stands.

We need a top-4 defenseman. We have a ton of young talent in the pipeline, and some key young pieces on the team already. Maybe we have to part with a juicy prospect to get that top-4 defenseman. Maybe - *gasp* - we have to cut ties with two young guns to get that top-4 defenseman. But that's how trading works. You give some to get some. And I think, given our situation, giving some (potentially potentially-great-young-talent) to get a much-needed (in the here and now, i.e. while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still with us) high-end defenseman makes a lot of sense.

(For the record, I think a guy like DeKeyser is pretty much untouchable.)

How do you know that 2 of Dekeyser, Kindl, or Smith won't be the caliber of player you're saying they need to trade for? What defenseman who is even rumored to be available would be a clear upgrade and is worth the rumored asking price?

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Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and 2. very hard to trade for because no one gives them away.

Yes Weber would be a great fit on our blue line. Big, fast, tough, RH shot, etc.... but he isn't available nor do we have the cap room.

After this season E and Q are both UFA's and free up about 7 million in cap space. Do we resign E? it will cost us 4.5-5 million per year to do it. if so, we don't have any room for another big name Dman. Our roster is full (2 players over) and we are cap tight.

In my humble opinion we really don't need a top tier Dman. Well maybe for a year or 2. but our system is full of great young Dman. 2 years from now we will have: kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, lashoff, Sproul, maybe E, Kronwall, and several other good young prospects coming. There is a good possibility that 2 years from now, Kindl and Dekeyser are the top pair with E/Kronwall the second. Leaving Smith/Sproul as the 3rd pair. That is a good group.

TBH I would hate to move one of these guys right now. Let them develop and enjoy the ride.

while he might not necesarily be available right now, I do remember weber wanting a NTC/NMC or whatever (back when the prednecks matched the offer sheet) and they didn't give him one (here's his contract: http://capgeek.com/player/1042) implying that he could potentially be available in the near future.. it'd be interesting to see what happened if he got put on the trade block.

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while he might not necesarily be available right now, I do remember weber wanting a NTC/NMC or whatever (back when the prednecks matched the offer sheet) and they didn't give him one (here's his contract: http://capgeek.com/player/1042) implying that he could potentially be available in the near future.. it'd be interesting to see what happened if he got put on the trade block.

And now that they're not in the same division/conference, maybe the Wings would have a shot at him if the Preds did put him on the market. If it does happen, it's going to take a combination of NHL level talent, can't miss prospects, and at least a #1 pick to land him imo. And while the Wings don't have cap room right now for that type of move, come next off season with expectations of a rising cap & some contracts coming off the board, they might be able to pull it off. Even taking this year's $64.3m cap into next season, the Wings have $18.5m in cap space with 2 forward, 2 d-men, & 1 backup goalie spot to fill. Granted, I think trading for Weber would mean probably losing Nyquist & probably Smith though from the big club's roster.

Edit: Just to throw it out there, who here would approve if this happened next June?

To Detroit: Weber

To Nashville: Nyquist, Smith, Sproul or Ouellet, & the Wings 2014 #1 pick

Edited by ogreslayer

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Why wold the Preds trade him? Unless he demands a trade, I just can't see it happening anytime soon. But let's put aside that for now. Weber has a cap hit of $7.86 mil. Assuming the most likely final roster for the Wings is Eaves being waived and Emmerton sent to GR after clearing waivers, they will be $820k under the cap. That means they would have to move just over $7 mil in cap space. That probably means Quincey and Samuelsson plus one other roster player is moved, either to Nashville or in separate deals. If Nashville won't take them, then it becomes incredibly complex unless Weber says he will only play for the Wings, because another team would presumably not have to make a second trade first. Let's say the perfect situation happens, and they're willing to take Samuelsson and Quincey as part of the deal. It would also probably take Smith, Sproul or Oullet, Nyquist or Tatar, and either a couple high picks or another top prospect. I don't think he'd be worth that much. Let's assume that the deal is Quincey, Samuelsson, Smith, Nyquist, Sproul, and a 2nd. That shorts Detroit a d-man and 2 forwards with no cap space to get someone else.

Even if the trade logistics can be worked out, with the recapture penalty this could be a killer, especially considering they have Zetterberg and Franzen both as potential hits from the recapture rules. If They trade for Weber this year around the trade deadline, and he plays 10 years here and retires at the age of 38, they would have a hit of over $4 mil for 3 seasons. Even if he plays out the contract, they would have an over the hill former hard hitting d-man who based on similar players wouldn't be nearly as effective as he is now and who will probably miss a chunk of the season every year from the abuse he takes taking up almost $8 mil of cap space.

No thanks.

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Why wold the Preds trade him? Unless he demands a trade, I just can't see it happening anytime soon. But let's put aside that for now. Weber has a cap hit of $7.86 mil. Assuming the most likely final roster for the Wings is Eaves being waived and Emmerton sent to GR after clearing waivers, they will be $820k under the cap. That means they would have to move just over $7 mil in cap space. That probably means Quincey and Samuelsson plus one other roster player is moved, either to Nashville or in separate deals. If Nashville won't take them, then it becomes incredibly complex unless Weber says he will only play for the Wings, because another team would presumably not have to make a second trade first. Let's say the perfect situation happens, and they're willing to take Samuelsson and Quincey as part of the deal. It would also probably take Smith, Sproul or Oullet, Nyquist or Tatar, and either a couple high picks or another top prospect. I don't think he'd be worth that much. Let's assume that the deal is Quincey, Samuelsson, Smith, Nyquist, Sproul, and a 2nd. That shorts Detroit a d-man and 2 forwards with no cap space to get someone else.

Even if the trade logistics can be worked out, with the recapture penalty this could be a killer, especially considering they have Zetterberg and Franzen both as potential hits from the recapture rules. If They trade for Weber this year around the trade deadline, and he plays 10 years here and retires at the age of 38, they would have a hit of over $4 mil for 3 seasons. Even if he plays out the contract, they would have an over the hill former hard hitting d-man who based on similar players wouldn't be nearly as effective as he is now and who will probably miss a chunk of the season every year from the abuse he takes taking up almost $8 mil of cap space.

No thanks.

One very important reason the Preds might trade him is based on how his contract is actually structured. While his cap hit is $7.8m, he will be owed $14m per year through the 2015-16 season & then it drops to $12m a year the two after that. The Preds obviously didn't have to pay him the full $14m last season because of the lockout so they had that working in their favor in matching the Flyers' offer. It's going to be a much more difficult contract for them to work around beginning this season given that Weber accounts for roughly a quarter of their entire payroll, which is already on an internal cap.

Also, don't forget that the Preds & Flyers were actually taking trade before Holmgren floated out the offer sheet last off season. The Preds just didn't think they were getting enough value back in the trade & Holmgrem got tired of waiting around so he tried to structure an offer he though the Preds wouldn't be able to match. The Preds have plenty of motivation to still explore trading Weber now that they can but it will all come down to a balance of getting out from under that contract & getting enough value back to where they don't deplete their roster too much, struggle in the standings, & more importantly struggle to sell tickets. It will all come down to whether or not their management thinks that Weber at $14m a year still earns them more profit than a boat load of younger & cheaper players if the package they get back allows them to still compete & sell tickets.

Edit: Adding a note on why I think a Weber trade will happen before or at the draft next year instead of happening this season. The way his contract is structured, only $1m of the $14m he was owed this season was salary. The other $13m was a signing bonus that's paid on July 1 of each year. The Preds had to pay that this year because of the one year freeze on trading him after matching the Flyers' offer, which just expired back on July 24th. I think they'll want get a full season out of Weber for their $14m & trade him off before July 1, 2014 to avoid that next $13m payout.

Edited by ogreslayer

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And now that they're not in the same division/conference, maybe the Wings would have a shot at him if the Preds did put him on the market. If it does happen, it's going to take a combination of NHL level talent, can't miss prospects, and at least a #1 pick to land him imo. And while the Wings don't have cap room right now for that type of move, come next off season with expectations of a rising cap & some contracts coming off the board, they might be able to pull it off. Even taking this year's $64.3m cap into next season, the Wings have $18.5m in cap space with 2 forward, 2 d-men, & 1 backup goalie spot to fill. Granted, I think trading for Weber would mean probably losing Nyquist & probably Smith though from the big club's roster.

Edit: Just to throw it out there, who here would approve if this happened next June?

To Detroit: Weber

To Nashville: Nyquist, Smith, Sproul or Ouellet, & the Wings 2014 #1 pick

My thoughts exactly. And as far as the trade goes, it's probably not far off from what they'd want (and deserve) for him. Though id be upset to lose nyq, and I think it should include 2 f & 1 d instead of the opposite, I think I'd go for it. It would be worth it/make an immediate impact and the wings prospect pool is so deep that they'll lose several prospects within the next few years or so, one way or another anyway. Edited by amato

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If they thought they couldn't afford his salary they would have worked out a trade with Philly or taken the draft picks for him. They won't trade him and Detroit doesn't have the cap room for him anyway.

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How do you know that 2 of Dekeyser, Kindl, or Smith won't be the caliber of player you're saying they need to trade for? What defenseman who is even rumored to be available would be a clear upgrade and is worth the rumored asking price?

Firstly, any and every player is "available" at all times - for the right deal. This idea that "There's no one available right now, so there's nothing we can do now anyway. So, *sits on hands*" is silly. Plus, isn't Ken Holland a god? Isn't he the greatest GM in the history of forever? Isn't his brilliance beyond the comprehension and constraints of mortal understanding? I trust he can be at least a little creative, and creep at least a couple of steps outside of the box.

Secondly, c'mon. We could play the "Well how do you know..." game forever and ever and ever.

How do you know x is really going to better than y or z?

How do you know Coffey and Primeau together aren't worth more than whatever Brendan Shanahan would give us?

Etc.

If we want to make as strong a push for the Cup as we can make, covering all our bases and preparing for worst-case scenarios, we'll be needing an established top-4 defenseman. Not a Kindl or a DeKeyser, who, no matter how good they may be, are relatively young and inexperienced, or some combination of those maybe (both being inexperienced, DeKeyser being very young. I guess.) (Point being, Kindl's actually not terribly young. But I digress.) Also, I forgot Smith.

Thirdly, you know what'd be cool? If we could bring in a top-4 defenseman while still retaining Kindl and DeKeyser and Smith. (Or at least two of them.) But I realize this is absolutely, unequivocally impossible.

Thirdly and a half - I'm not suggesting we give up on our youth. I'm saying we bring in a high-end piece. Bringing in a high-end piece would not cost all of Kindl, DeKeyser, Smith, Sproul, XO, etc.

Fourthly, the (il)legitimacy of what I'm saying shouldn't rest on whether or not I can provide a list of names that everyone here can agree on. Besides, why try naming players when people can just pull the "Well, ok, but how do you know..." card? No fun.

Fifthly, Dan Girardi.

Sixthly, imagine losing Kronwall for the entire postseason. Or, not even the whole postseason - just, say, six games. I do not like our odds in this case, and I know more than a few people would be thinking, "Y'know, maybe we shoulda gotten one of those experienced top-4 defensemen. Now that I think about it, what was the issue with that? It seems pretty silly that now that we wouldn't prepare for this, knowing our 'luck' with injuries."

Edited by Dabura

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If they thought they couldn't afford his salary they would have worked out a trade with Philly or taken the draft picks for him. They won't trade him and Detroit doesn't have the cap room for him anyway.

Or if they didn't think at the time they were getting enough back from the Flyers or that their fans wouldn't put up losing their top d pairing for all of an extra 1st round draft pick the next four seasons, which are never sure things & could signal that they were in a rebuilding mode and see ticket sales drop, they could have decided to pay him in the short term with the idea of still exploring the trade market later when they might be able to get more value for him.

And while the Wings don't have cap room this season, they very well might next season. As I already mentioned, even if the cap doesn't go up, they have a little over $18.5m in cap space available. Given that a trade for Weber would probably include a couple of roster players, it is certainly within the realm of possibility that the Wings could fit Weber on the payroll. Let's say Nyquist & Smith go to Nashville in the trade & Tootoo is traded this season. Now you've got $20.6m to work with after deferring Alfie's bonus this season to 2014. Weber's cap hit reduces that to $12.8m for re-signing Ericsson, maybe Alfie, Tatar, DeKeyser, a backup to Jimmy, & fill out the rest of the spots (2-4 forwards & a d-man or 2) with cheap UFA pickups or youngsters from GR. It's not impossible, especially since it's very doubtful that Nashville will do anything until the trade deadline at the earliest given that they've already paid Weber $13m for this season back on July 1. Improbable? Maybe, but not impossible.

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Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and

I agree 100% we need a true #1 D-man

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If I were GM of the Preds I wouldnt care about Nyquist or Ouellet. I would ask for one of Smith/Dekeyser, Mrazek, Sproul and a 1st. If Kenny turned me down I would trade Weber elsewhere because I know a return like that can be had from someone else...

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If I were GM of the Preds I wouldnt care about Nyquist or Ouellet. I would ask for one of Smith/Dekeyser, Mrazek, Sproul and a 1st. If Kenny turned me down I would trade Weber elsewhere because I know a return like that can be had from someone else...

pekka is only 30 and is one of the best (if not the best) goalies in the league.. i dont see them wanting mraz when they could get a top forward prospect instead

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pekka is only 30 and is one of the best (if not the best) goalies in the league.. i dont see them wanting mraz when they could get a top forward prospect instead

I think they would want the best possible prospects available, but minimum one defenseman ofcourse since they would be giving up their no 1 defenseman in trade. My reasoning is that trading Weber is a huge risk for the GM, if the prospects dont pan out, he will look stupid down the road for trading that franchise defenseman. He could play Rinne for 5 more years and have Mrazek as backup before he is ready to take over, or he could trade either of them before if necessary. Goalies that dominate for 15 years is pretty rare these days, so a plan B cannot hurt. Another fact is that the Red Wings do not really have any Grade A forward prospect, except maybe Mantha. I think it would be more about who puts together the most attractive package...

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I'm ready to let the next gen take over. The Wings' defense has a lot of potential, and they've been groomed for this year for a while. Lets see what they can do behind the wheel.

Exactly this. Everyone wants to see the kids play and now that they get to we need to bring in someone else? I'm all for our current line up taking the ice this year and then in a year or 2 we'll have Sproul, Ouellet, Backman and others pushing these guys to keep their game up or they'll lose their spot to the aforementioned. If after this season, Sproul replaces Quincey I'd be 100% pleased. The future of the Wings is the prospects that are being groomed as Echolalia stated and the guys that won the Calder Cup last year behind a Wings team that was "rebuilding" and was supposed to miss the playoffs. Since the beginning of last season, we lost Brunner, Flip and Cleary so far, and we acquired DeKeyser, Weiss and Alfredsson. I'm sure having a hard time not staying positive and it's gonna sink in even more when I download NHL14 early release friday at lunch and start playing with the Wings and see Alfie and Weiss in Wings uniforms. That's usually when it hits home. We got some very good replacements for Brunner and Flip that I believe are upgrades easily.

As for the original question about our D, having the following is not so bad: Kronwall-Ericsson, Kindl-DeKeyser, Smith-Quincey, Lashoff as 7th. Ericsson has become a very trustworthy shutdown guy, DeKeyser doesn't like letting guys get past our blue line, Kindl hits the net from the point better than anyone else on our team, Smith had flashes of brilliance but needs to settle down and Quincey stopped sucking 2/3 of the way through last season and proved some of his worth. I'm happy with our current blue line.

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Exactly this. Everyone wants to see the kids play and now that they get to we need to bring in someone else?

I'm not following this bringing-in-a-great-defenseman-would-ruin-it-for-all-our-young-guys business.

I mean, if we can bring in Samuelsson, retain Bertuzzi, look to bring Cleary back...would bringing in a high-end defenseman - our blue line being our big weakness ("Kronwall...et al.") - be such a crazy thing to do?

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At what cost though? Most players would be traded for the right package but if a team isn't looking to make the deal then it takes a lot to get a GM to even consider moving a top player. Why would a team not in an obvious rebuild trade a star anyway? Yandle is supposed to be available but he isn't the guy they need. Edler was but apparently isn't any more. Myers is probably on the block but unless he pulls his head out his ass that contract is toxic. I can't think of anyone else who is likely to be moved for anything approaching a good deal for Detroit.

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