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RedWang

The Dan Cleary Hate Zone

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Who would argue this?

I say arguably because I did not want to state my opinion as fact.

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BTW, I hate the "Eye Test" answer that is a BS answer that is impacted by your own bias and perception, which is impacted heavily by a pre-conceived notion of what Cleary is or isn't doing!

Wait, Nyquist is being benched for Cleary?? WOW I must be watching a different Red Wings Team!

First of all, you must have missed the first quarter of the season where Nyquist was playing in GR because Cleary was taking up a roster spot. So yeah, you must have been watching a different Red Wings team than the rest of us.

Second, the "eye-ball" test is only one of two things you can judge a player by (in terms of actual on ice play, this excludes things like leadership and locker room qualities), the other being stats. His stats are pretty abysmal. Looking at his play reveals and abundance of falling down, chipping the puck up/down the boards (no puck possession play; the other team almost always ends up with the puck), and a very occasional weak shot on goal. He's just not very good anymore.

And I want to clear something up. I don't think anybody hates Dan Cleary as a person. What we hate is his current (can't stress that enough) hockey playing ability.

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The post I replied to about Nyquist and Tatar said that Cleary was taking up their spot from September until now.

I then posted that the point was valid in Sept but no longer, however you removed that from the quote, either to make me look like I have no clue, or because you didn't realize that I was continuing my point in the next paragraph.

Hence why in the quote I said:

Wait, Nyquist is being benched for Cleary?? WOW I must be watching a different Red Wings Team!

Notice the use of present tense "IS" not past tense "WAS".

Either way, I specifically mentioned the gluttony of forwards no longer being the case and that Nyquist and Tatar are now playing BIGGER roles than Cleary, but why bother quoting my whole post, it only provides context for someone reading your post!


The problem with the "Eye Ball" test is, as I mentioned, your perception is impacted by your preconceived notions and how you feel about Cleary.

Sure you have to see things in order to get a good understanding of what is going on, but using only the "Eye Test" as your argument in a discussion, is incomplete and greatly influenced by your opinion, very, very few people (I am not one of them) can truly look at something and judge it with out any bias and be completely impartial.

Edited by Opie

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What has either of them done this year or last that tells you they are the better option?

Tootoo gets limited minutes and games because of the exact reason a lot on here like him.

He often takes himself out of the play to make a big hit.

Sure it is nice to see a guy in the winged Wheel lay a big hit or two a game, but not at the price of team D.

Eaves is Miller reincarnate, I still am not sure why Holland continues to sign the both of them, they are both very good PKers, and provide good D, but if Miller is in, do you really need Eaves and vice verse.

unfortunately neither of them have done anything this season because they have both saw very limited action. however, based on how much cleary has regressed, i am confident with what eaves and tootoo brought ot the team last year being more valuable than cleary. especially when you consider that the slot cleary is in right now is 4th line winger. that is a slot that any of those 3 guys mentioned can fill.

personally, i think tootoo has had a shorter leash than any player on the wings in recent memory. heck, look at that dumb penalty samuelsson took in the 1st period last game... had tootoo done that, he would have been benched the rest of the game and scratched for at least a week. there is a different standard expected of him than anyone else. and then people criticize him when he doesn't exceed expectations. he certainly will go out of position to make a hit at times, but is that a reason to send him to grand rapids and continue to play can cleary who is currently bringing nothing to the table? and regarding eaves, i believe he has always shown the ability to play his role. he has always had limited even strength minutes and yet still contributes. i think his 2 seasons of 12 and 13 goals show that he can contribute when asked. and i know those seasons are now several years ago, but unlike cleary, eaves has not shown that he is only a shell of his former self.

bigger picture the issue isn't huge. when datsyuk and bertuzzi are back hopefully none of these guys are playing. as long as nyquist and tatar continue to get opportunities to show their value, i am happy.

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unfortunately neither of them have done anything this season because they have both saw very limited action. however, based on how much cleary has regressed, i am confident with what eaves and tootoo brought ot the team last year being more valuable than cleary. especially when you consider that the slot cleary is in right now is 4th line winger. that is a slot that any of those 3 guys mentioned can fill.

personally, i think tootoo has had a shorter leash than any player on the wings in recent memory. heck, look at that dumb penalty samuelsson took in the 1st period last game... had tootoo done that, he would have been benched the rest of the game and scratched for at least a week. there is a different standard expected of him than anyone else. and then people criticize him when he doesn't exceed expectations. he certainly will go out of position to make a hit at times, but is that a reason to send him to grand rapids and continue to play can cleary who is currently bringing nothing to the table? and regarding eaves, i believe he has always shown the ability to play his role. he has always had limited even strength minutes and yet still contributes. i think his 2 seasons of 12 and 13 goals show that he can contribute when asked. and i know those seasons are now several years ago, but unlike cleary, eaves has not shown that he is only a shell of his former self.

bigger picture the issue isn't huge. when datsyuk and bertuzzi are back hopefully none of these guys are playing. as long as nyquist and tatar continue to get opportunities to show their value, i am happy.

All I can say is that Cleary is a +2 while Tootoo (small sample size I get that) is a -4.

I have never liked Tootoo's style,I admit that is a personal bias.

I think he is a border line Matt Cooke/Chris Simon, with a little effort either way he could be a complete Thug, or a very good checking forward.

Unfortunately his play is still in between those, and thus gets frustrating to me.

You are ok with a Patrick Eaves who is injured a lot and had a good year a few years ago, but Cleary's Playoffs last year are not good enough?

Dano was not a barn burner last year during the reg season, but come playoff time he stepped it up.

IMO, he is more responsible in his own end than Tootoo, and to me Eaves doesn't really get me that much more excited than Cleary.

(Not that this is what you are doing, but) I could have predicted the Dan Cleary for LGW whipping boy long before the season started.

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All I can say is that Cleary is a +2 while Tootoo (small sample size I get that) is a -4.

I have never liked Tootoo's style,I admit that is a personal bias.

I think he is a border line Matt Cooke/Chris Simon, with a little effort either way he could be a complete Thug, or a very good checking forward.

Unfortunately his play is still in between those, and thus gets frustrating to me.

You are ok with a Patrick Eaves who is injured a lot and had a good year a few years ago, but Cleary's Playoffs last year are not good enough?

Dano was not a barn burner last year during the reg season, but come playoff time he stepped it up.

IMO, he is more responsible in his own end than Tootoo, and to me Eaves doesn't really get me that much more excited than Cleary.

(Not that this is what you are doing, but) I could have predicted the Dan Cleary for LGW whipping boy long before the season started.

for me it all boils down to linemates. cleary has been given tons of quality minutes with our top players, while eaves, miller, tootoo, etc are all just spare parts put wherever we need someone.

my opinion of watching these guys play over several seasons is that dan cleary rarely if ever makes the line he is on better. point wise he had a great playoff last year. but forgive me if bouncing pucks in off his * gets me excited! sure he went to the net, but so will eaves, tootoo, or anyone else.

i feel like eaves has always been a player that plays a strong game. and when needed he will step up into a bigger role for a short time and at least not make the line he is on look bad.

i guess overall, where i am coming from is that eaves has a history of being solid in that role and has done nothing to show he cant continue to be solid. conversely, cleary has just continued to look very awful out there. and while he has managed to keep a +2, he also only has 4 points even though he has the 7th most minutes played for forwards including over 24 minutes of PP time. which is actually almost as many minutes as eaves has been given total!

either way, thanks for the polite discussion!

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for me it all boils down to linemates. cleary has been given tons of quality minutes with our top players, while eaves, miller, tootoo, etc are all just spare parts put wherever we need someone.

my opinion of watching these guys play over several seasons is that dan cleary rarely if ever makes the line he is on better. point wise he had a great playoff last year. but forgive me if bouncing pucks in off his * gets me excited! sure he went to the net, but so will eaves, tootoo, or anyone else.

i feel like eaves has always been a player that plays a strong game. and when needed he will step up into a bigger role for a short time and at least not make the line he is on look bad.

i guess overall, where i am coming from is that eaves has a history of being solid in that role and has done nothing to show he cant continue to be solid. conversely, cleary has just continued to look very awful out there. and while he has managed to keep a +2, he also only has 4 points even though he has the 7th most minutes played for forwards including over 24 minutes of PP time. which is actually almost as many minutes as eaves has been given total!

either way, thanks for the polite discussion!

I won't argue that Cleary has been one of the Worst Wings this season, but is Sammy that much better?, Eaves?, Tootoo?

And I guess that is my point, I really don't see a better option, now that Nyquist and Tatar have bigger roles than he does.

That is why during the preseason and early season I was not supporting Cleary on this forum, but as of 12/3/13, there just are not any better options, IMO!

OH and I try to stay polite, but that is not always how I come off or how I post. I try not to get baited or in attacks, but I still get caught up in it!

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At this point I'd rather have Tootoo on the fourth line, at least I'd notice when he's on the ice. So far Cleary has done everything he can to prove that he shouldn't be signed again.

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Opie, what is the point that you're tryin to make? It's not really clear. At first, you were criticizing the cleary hate because the wings are in third. After that, you were saying that the eyeball test is not a good method for evaluating cleary. Now, you're saying there's no better option than cleary.

Are you saying we shouldn't complain, about anything, because we're in third?

Are you saying cleary is a capable hockey player?

Are you just saying it's stupid to whine about cleary because, at the moment, there are no better options?

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Cleary has more goals than Alex Burrows this season. Yay, Danny!

Edit:

Burrows, 17 games. 0 goals, 3 assists

Edited by T.Low

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Opie, what is the point that you're tryin to make? It's not really clear. At first, you were criticizing the cleary hate because the wings are in third. After that, you were saying that the eyeball test is not a good method for evaluating cleary. Now, you're saying there's no better option than cleary.

Are you saying we shouldn't complain, about anything, because we're in third?

Are you saying cleary is a capable hockey player?

Are you just saying it's stupid to whine about cleary because, at the moment, there are no better options?

I still think that being three points out/in third in the conference people are overreacting to one forward. Is he the main reason for the loses, no, is he a main reason for wins, also no!

Yes I think Cleary is a capable 4th liner, who is probably the worst forward dressing for the Wings, and yes there is no better option on the wings IMO.

As far as complaining, complain all you want, but on a forum expect someone to disagree, I do, in fact I expect disagreement almost every time I open my mouth, I am married!

The eye ball test tangent was just that a tangent, because I hate when people say watch the game or My eyes tell me all I need to know, in order to argue stats. Which I agree is not the only way to evaluate talent.

Edited by Opie

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I have this theory that Dan Cleary is that monster from jeepers creepers, and the red wings kept him around to quell his taste for teenagers before shipping him out of town or upstairs.

And during the playoffs they set him free to engorge himself on whatever spare parts he wants.

Just saying It explains his knees, and his effectiveness last post season.

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hmm, interesting. I have a feeling that KH, babs and co kept him around for his veteran smarts, leadership etc, banking on the fact that we had a greater amount of talent elsewhere to make up for it. I will never hate Cleary for simply what he has done for this team, but his time had come at the end of last year. But could you blame KH for re-signing him after he had a great playoff? I'm not sure. Those with cups half full probably couldn't. The guy had a great track record here in Detroit, has been an anchor in many roles for the team over the years and has given it all. I don't think any of us saw this coming quite so quickly and quite so soon.

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The thing that gets me is that Holland seemed to ready to waive him, but these injuries make it unnecessary. The longer he plays, and the more Babcock pushes for him (24/7, PP minutes, etc) the less likely he gets waived after all.

He doesn't cost the team the way Quincey does, but he rarely helps and forces whatever line he's on to focus on defense, which is bad for a top 6 line.

And people like to say he had a great game because he didn't fall down as much, or because he completed a 15 foot pass without losing the puck. The fact that we have to praise that highlights that he isn't good enough. He's been better, but still needs to be the odd man out.

Or at least kept to fourth line minutes. His garbage goals can help, but the mistakes he makes this season with puck possession will cost us just as much come playoffs.

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I don't know if it was just HBO trying to paint him as this leader on the team or if the rest of the team actually views him in this way, but that sort of a presence doesn't hurt the locker room, at least.

Cleary seems to have a lot of "almost" chances offensively where he's either not quite in the right position for a play or just simply can't hit the net. There's no doubt that he's less effective now than he was 2-4 years ago and he's frustrating to watch, but I can't hate on the guy for playing where Babcock tells him to play.

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Hmmm....he gets teeth knocked out. Did it knock some sense into him? Nah, he's still here.

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I don't know if it was just HBO trying to paint him as this leader on the team or if the rest of the team actually views him in this way, but that sort of a presence doesn't hurt the locker room, at least.

Cleary seems to have a lot of "almost" chances offensively where he's either not quite in the right position for a play or just simply can't hit the net. There's no doubt that he's less effective now than he was 2-4 years ago and he's frustrating to watch, but I can't hate on the guy for playing where Babcock tells him to play.

Every time i watch a game i say if that was anyone but cleary (ABC) that would have been a goal, or that pass would have went through, or they would have whatever.

I dont hate the guy, he plays his @ss off. Its just a bummer that he cant seem to get his body to what it needs to anymore =\

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I understand why they signed him. He only got 1 year, at a cheaper price than other teams would have paid, and if we take the Cup this year Holland looks great.

But it backfired because he just isn't good enough this season, even at that price. I think that's about it.

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I'll reserve my judgement on Cleary until playoffs assuming we make them. I have to think some of the problem is just mental the way he turned up his game in the playoffs last year.

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I'll reserve my judgement on Cleary until playoffs assuming we make them. I have to think some of the problem is just mental the way he turned up his game in the playoffs last year.

Can we really afford to keep players because they are good playoff performers? Cleary plays to the best of the ability that he has left. However he does provide some good leadership qualities.

Rick D likes this

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I'll reserve my judgement on Cleary until playoffs assuming we make them. I have to think some of the problem is just mental the way he turned up his game in the playoffs last year.

dont we already have someone just like that on our team doesnt do anything till playoffs?

see Johan Franzen

Rick D likes this

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Doesn't Cleary need knee injections but doesn't use them during the regular season but does during the playoffs. I read an article last year about something like that

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dont we already have someone just like that on our team doesnt do anything till playoffs?

see Johan Franzen

You're really going to compare franzen to Cleary? Franzen has played quite a bit better than Cleary this year and has the point totals to prove it

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