e_prime 1,936 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 I mean, I don't disagree with your logic. I just have a hard time imagining KH moving ANY roster player. The combination of Ericsson being "home grown" and Holland being so loyal that he'd rather watch his team tank than move a guy who has value, makes me believe he'll never...EVER...trade a homegrown top pairing d-man. This is going to be his downfall. 1 rick zombo reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rick zombo 3,739 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 I mean, I don't disagree with your logic. I just have a hard time imagining KH moving ANY roster player. The combination of Ericsson being "home grown" and Holland being so loyal that he'd rather watch his team tank than move a guy who has value, makes me believe he'll never...EVER...trade a homegrown top pairing d-man. Totally. Imagine if Holland was the GM of Chicago after the cup win in 2010. Bowman had to clean house (Niemi, Campbell, Ladd, Versteeg, Brouwer.....)!!!! That would have been fun to watch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,477 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 I would have kept niemi over Crawford Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 In some ways it's hard to blame him. He falls prey to the exact same thinking half this forum does. The thinking seems to be, if a guys plays poorly nobody wants him, and if a guy plays well then why trade him? I don't agree with it, but I get where it's coming from. Take Nyquist for instance. Here's a guy who's already on most people's "never ever ever ever trade list". And probably Holland's too. Maybe, just maybe, you've got the next Phil Kessel on your hands with Gus. But probably not. Probably he'll get you 50-60 pts. a season and be small each and every last second. But because of an (unsustainable) high shooting percentage, he's got unreal value right now. So doesn't it make sense to move him for a player who will give you 50-60 pts. and not be 185-190 lbs. for the rest of his career? Or use him as a center piece for someone better. For example: Don't you think Colorado would think long and hard about Nyquist (plus prospect) for O'Reilly considering they'd be getting a good player AND they'd be able to resign Stastny with the savings? Probably. But it won't happen because KH can't move beyond "Nyquist had a good season and Nyquist is home grown". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,477 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 You honestly think they would trade o'Reilly for nyquist? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 You honestly think they would trade o'Reilly for nyquist? The fact we had to get Quincey through Stevie because Colorado wouldn't deal with Holland tells me Sakic would probably never trade with us, but I imagine the thought of Nyquist and Duchene playing together might get the Avs brass excited. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) You honestly think they would trade o'Reilly for nyquist? Not straight up. But it would be a good starting point. Especially, especially if you kicked in a real good prospect (Backman?). They'd be getting a quality winger with a low cap hit. Like I said, they'd be able to resign Stastny if they did. Plus O'Reilly doesn't want to be there, so there's no reason to hang on to him. Maybe they don't do it, but they'd think long and hard. Why hang on to him and lose him or nothing...or lose him for a lower return when teams realize that he'll walk in a year or two anyway. The point however, isn't how to make it work. The point is that it will never, ever, be considered by KH whether it would work or not. The fact we had to get Quincey through Stevie because Colorado wouldn't deal with Holland tells me Sakic would probably never trade with us, but I imagine the thought of Nyquist and Duchene playing together might get the Avs brass excited. We were in the same conference then. Who knows that happens now? I don't see a lot of teams turning down good players for something that happened 20 years ago. Especially considering the management for CO has changed since then. Edited June 23, 2014 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,477 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 You're talking about trading a 50-60 point a year guy plus prospect for a 50-60 point a year guy that's roughly the same size, and they both had high shooting percentages Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
e_prime 1,936 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) In some ways it's hard to blame him. He falls prey to the exact same thinking half this forum does. The thinking seems to be, if a guys plays poorly nobody wants him, and if a guy plays well then why trade him? I don't agree with it, but I get where it's coming from. Take Nyquist for instance. Here's a guy who's already on most people's "never ever ever ever trade list". And probably Holland's too. Maybe, just maybe, you've got the next Phil Kessel on your hands with Gus. But probably not. Probably he'll get you 50-60 pts. a season and be small each and every last second. But because of an (unsustainable) high shooting percentage, he's got unreal value right now. So doesn't it make sense to move him for a player who will give you 50-60 pts. and not be 185-190 lbs. for the rest of his career? Or use him as a center piece for someone better. For example: Don't you think Colorado would think long and hard about Nyquist (plus prospect) for O'Reilly considering they'd be getting a good player AND they'd be able to resign Stastny with the savings? Probably. But it won't happen because KH can't move beyond "Nyquist had a good season and Nyquist is home grown". You're talking about trading a 50-60 point a year guy plus prospect for a 50-60 point a year guy that's roughly the same size, and they both had high shooting percentages Are you comparing O'Reilly and Nyquist? Edited June 23, 2014 by e_prime 2 Detroit \# 1 Fan and kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 You're talking about trading a 50-60 point a year guy plus prospect for a 50-60 point a year guy that's roughly the same size, and they both had high shooting percentages O'Reilly is 200 lbs. and just as fast as Nyquist. If nothing else this makes him harder to play against. But it also means he'll fare better defensively against top players. Additionally, he's also super competitive and has a better track record of success at the NHL level. Of the two, I'd put far more stock in O'Reilly being "the next Zetterberg" than I would Nyquist. But the point was not to say we should trade Nyquist for O'Reilly. That's not going to happen and I know it. The point was to say that it's a shame KH likely wouldn't even consider it, even if it made all the sense in the world. Are you comparing O'Reilly and Nyquist? Good Ol' JR! Favorite post of the month...easily. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rick zombo 3,739 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 In some ways it's hard to blame him. He falls prey to the exact same thinking half this forum does. The thinking seems to be, if a guys plays poorly nobody wants him, and if a guy plays well then why trade him? I don't agree with it, but I get where it's coming from. Take Nyquist for instance. Here's a guy who's already on most people's "never ever ever ever trade list". And probably Holland's too. Maybe, just maybe, you've got the next Phil Kessel on your hands with Gus. But probably not. Probably he'll get you 50-60 pts. a season and be small each and every last second. But because of an (unsustainable) high shooting percentage, he's got unreal value right now. So doesn't it make sense to move him for a player who will give you 50-60 pts. and not be 185-190 lbs. for the rest of his career? Or use him as a center piece for someone better. For example: Don't you think Colorado would think long and hard about Nyquist (plus prospect) for O'Reilly considering they'd be getting a good player AND they'd be able to resign Stastny with the savings? Probably. But it won't happen because KH can't move beyond "Nyquist had a good season and Nyquist is home grown". This should have been the mentality with Franzen in 2009. Here was a dude that was drafted at the age of 24 and a third line checking center who had just come off two playoffs with stratospheric scoring numbers. The organization should have recognized this as a bit of an anomoly (which it was!!) and Holland could have traded him right then and there for a pretty great D prospect and then resigned Hossa. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,963 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 DannyD you left Weiss off of your 15'-16' roster... I guess if we expect Nyquist to repeat his scoring prowess again, along with maybe Tatar topping 20, we really don't NEED to acquire Kesler for scoring, since he only had one season over 26 goals. But I tend to think, along with a lot of others, that he would be dynamic with The Euro Twins...he was when he played with the Sedins (he scored 41 goals.) But it really would be disappointing to give up what we would have to give up and only get 25 goals out of him... I am all for trying to better the team in every aspect we can (which is why I am so upset over re-signing Monster) but looking at it, I think the focus should be a #1 defenseman....top legit guy. If Nyquist and Tatar will be both topping 25 goals, I'd rather give up he assets for that #1 D. That is IF they CAN both top 25.... Kesler is a perennial 25+ goal scorer, he may have only gotten over 26 one time, but there is no reason to believe he won't again get at least 25 and possibly get into the 30's. That is the reason a trade for Kesler makes a ton of sense. Nyquist and Tatar may never see 15 goals again...its a gamble either way, but I think losing Helm, 1st and a prospect or two, would be worth the gamble...Especially if Kesler gets near 40 again AND Nyquist and Tatar get 25. If Sheahan and Jurco get 25, that's all bonus... Imgagine if we trade Helm, 1st, Andersson, Pulk to Vancouver for Kesler and the goal scoring ends up: Z - 30 D - 30 Kesler - 40 Weiss - 20 Franzen - 20 Tatar - 25 Nyquist - 30 Jurco - 20 Sheahan - 20 That would be a huge improvement...we must stay healthy though... Z - D - Kesler Nyquist - Weiss - Frazine Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar Miller - Glendening - Abby I like that lineup and wouldn't miss Helm, Andersson or the prospect at all. If it would cost us Janmark instead of Andersson, that would be fine too...plus it would leave Andy for the 13th FWD. I still don't know what to do with Ferraro and Callahan though...I, of course trade Kindl on the D...he has got to go. If we trade a couple of top prospects for Kesler, that pretty much takes us out of the running for a top defender via trade...but there is always paying up for a UFA. Let's just say Niskanen... Kronwall - Niskanen Smith - Ericsson Dekeyser - Morris Lashoff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
e_prime 1,936 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 O'Reilly is 200 lbs. and just as fast as Nyquist. If nothing else this makes him harder to play against. But it also means he'll fare better defensively against top players. Additionally, he's also super competitive and has a better track record of success at the NHL level. Of the two, I'd put far more stock in O'Reilly being "the next Zetterberg" than I would Nyquist. But the point was not to say we should trade Nyquist for O'Reilly. That's not going to happen and I know it. The point was to say that it's a shame KH likely wouldn't even consider it, even if it made all the sense in the world. Good Ol' JR! Favorite post of the month...easily. Hows about Tatar plus prospects/picks for O'Reilly? Also, thanks. After the one you made the other day, I had to make a couple for future usage. 2 Internet.Unknown and kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 Good Ol' JR! Favorite post of the month...easily. BAH GAWD KING STOP THE MATCH! STOP THE GODDAMN MATCH! 1 e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 BAH GAWD KING STOP THE MATCH! STOP THE GODDAMN MATCH! Good God almighty! That killed him! As god as my witness, he is broken in half! (actual quotes from the Foley v. Undertake Hell in a Cell match) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 Good God almighty! That killed him! As god as my witness, he is broken in half! (actual quotes from the Foley v. Undertake Hell in a Cell match) I don't know why the hell WWE would get rid of him. Worst decision they've ever made. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 I don't know why the hell WWE would get rid of him. Worst decision they've ever made. Amen Brother! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,477 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 Just to point out nyquist had a .84ppg and o'Reilly had a .78 ppg, both had 28 goals. The only difference is o'Reilly has 15 pounds on goose, something he could easily correct over the summer. I'm not saying don't trade for o'Reilly but they aren't that far off from being the same player. Both are fast and highly skilled. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DannyD 79 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 DannyD you left Weiss off of your 15'-16' roster... I guess if we expect Nyquist to repeat his scoring prowess again, along with maybe Tatar topping 20, we really don't NEED to acquire Kesler for scoring, since he only had one season over 26 goals. But I tend to think, along with a lot of others, that he would be dynamic with The Euro Twins...he was when he played with the Sedins (he scored 41 goals.) But it really would be disappointing to give up what we would have to give up and only get 25 goals out of him... I am all for trying to better the team in every aspect we can (which is why I am so upset over re-signing Monster) but looking at it, I think the focus should be a #1 defenseman....top legit guy. If Nyquist and Tatar will be both topping 25 goals, I'd rather give up he assets for that #1 D. That is IF they CAN both top 25.... Kesler is a perennial 25+ goal scorer, he may have only gotten over 26 one time, but there is no reason to believe he won't again get at least 25 and possibly get into the 30's. That is the reason a trade for Kesler makes a ton of sense. Nyquist and Tatar may never see 15 goals again...its a gamble either way, but I think losing Helm, 1st and a prospect or two, would be worth the gamble...Especially if Kesler gets near 40 again AND Nyquist and Tatar get 25. If Sheahan and Jurco get 25, that's all bonus... Imgagine if we trade Helm, 1st, Andersson, Pulk to Vancouver for Kesler and the goal scoring ends up: Z - 30 D - 30 Kesler - 40 Weiss - 20 Franzen - 20 Tatar - 25 Nyquist - 30 Jurco - 20 Sheahan - 20 That would be a huge improvement...we must stay healthy though... Z - D - Kesler Nyquist - Weiss - Frazine Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar Miller - Glendening - Abby I like that lineup and wouldn't miss Helm, Andersson or the prospect at all. If it would cost us Janmark instead of Andersson, that would be fine too...plus it would leave Andy for the 13th FWD. I still don't know what to do with Ferraro and Callahan though...I, of course trade Kindl on the D...he has got to go. If we trade a couple of top prospects for Kesler, that pretty much takes us out of the running for a top defender via trade...but there is always paying up for a UFA. Let's just say Niskanen... Kronwall - Niskanen Smith - Ericsson Dekeyser - Morris Lashoff I put in a little side note that I traded him at the deadline for a pick after what I gave up for O'Reilly. I'm a fan of Kesler, I just like O'Reilly a little better because he is younger. I would like to trade Helm + Anderrsson + Marchenko and a pick nstead of Pulks if at all possible. It opens up the logjam at forward a little bit when Mantha is ready. I don't want to be stuck in another situation where a guy is stuck in GR because we don't "have room for him" on the roster. Z-Pav-Kesler Goose-Weiss-Jurco Tats-Sheahan-Franzen Abby-Glenny-Callahan Still leaves us with Franzen, Tats, Pulks, AA, Backman, Sproul, and Oullet as trade bait for a Top 4 D. (Although I don't think we need it.) In order for Mantha to be up next season I don't see how Franzen stays on the roster though, so I would try to trade him for something, maybe in the Kesler/O'Reilly deal. Z, Pav, Goose and 2C (Sheahan or Weiss) are locks. Add in Kesler or O'Reilly to that mix and that's 5 of your top 6. If Franzen, Jurco, Tats are all still on the team where does Mantha fit? In reality though, I wouldn't be surprised to see us do anything this offseason except maybe... Z-D-Sheahan Goose-Weiss-Jurco Tatar-Helm-Franzen Abby-Glendening-Callahan/Miller Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 Just to point out nyquist had a .84ppg and o'Reilly had a .78 ppg, both had 28 goals. The only difference is o'Reilly has 15 pounds on goose, something he could easily correct over the summer. I'm not saying don't trade for o'Reilly but they aren't that far off from being the same player. Both are fast and highly skilled. Further off than you think considering Nyquist will probably never again score 23 goals in 21 games or whatever it was. It's kind of hard to use points per game in Gus' favor this year considering how wildly, freakishly, lucky that streak was. There's literally no really to think that Gus is more the 23 goals in 21 games player, and not the 0 goals in the 18 games before that player. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 Yo. Sorry for being kind of a ****** yesterday, kip. I was passing a kidney stone. Fun, fun, fun! Heading out the door right now, but I'm hoping to flesh my thoughts out tonight. I stand by my assertion that it boils down to a simple lack of elite skill and talent, but I myself have actually been banging the identity crisis drum here and there for several years now, so I totally get where you're coming from. I guess at some recent point in time I decided that things like "identity" and "philosophy" are sort of peripheral issues for our club. I'll try to expand when I get back. Peace out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 Yo. Sorry for being kind of a ****** yesterday, kip. I was passing a kidney stone. Fun, fun, fun! Heading out the door right now, but I'm hoping to flesh my thoughts out tonight. I stand by my assertion that it boils down to a simple lack of elite skill and talent, but I myself have actually been banging the identity crisis drum here and there for several years now, so I totally get where you're coming from. I guess at some recent point in time I decided that things like "identity" and "philosophy" are sort of peripheral issues for our club. I'll try to expand when I get back. Peace out. No worries. We're good. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 As a good as Nyquist was last season let's put things into perspective here, O'Reilly is the more proven better player. Are people honestly expecting Goose to keep up that unreal stamkoslike PPG pace? I hope not, if so some of you will be disappointed. If Goose adds 20 more pounds and still produces at such a great pace, then we can revisit this debate but so far ROR is the better player. Guy also plays an almost perfect clean game 2 penalty minutes in a whole season? _Wow 1 e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nawein 324 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) Apparently Alfie wants to play another year, per St James. Edited June 23, 2014 by nawein Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted June 23, 2014 Apparently Alfie wants to play another year, per St James. Gosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites