Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'm of the opinion that a team can change drastically from one minor tweak, which is all I think we need. We don't need any major shake-ups and I'm sure you would agree on that, but we do have one glaring need, and we all know what that is. If we can upgrade our blueline, I think our team would look much different. I don't know what is going on with Ericsson again lately but he has single-handedly lost us a few games, and that has to change as well, or he needs to be demoted...

I think if we can add more offense to our defense we can compete with any of the top teams in the league. I'm still on the Mike Green train, although unfortunately, I think that's very unlikely to happen...

Of course, we're going to need to be healthy as well, and that includes getting Howard back as soon as possible.

[kipwinger 8,613]

I'm of the opinion that a team can change drastically from one minor tweak, which is all I think we need. We don't need any major shake-ups and I'm sure you would agree on that, but we do have one glaring need, and we all know what that is. If we can upgrade our blueline, I think our team would look much different. I don't know what is going on with Ericsson again lately but he has single-handedly lost us a few games, and that has to change as well, or he needs to be demoted...

I think if we can add more offense to our defense we can compete with any of the top teams in the league. I'm still on the Mike Green train, although unfortunately, I think that's very unlikely to happen...

Of course, we're going to need to be healthy as well, and that includes getting Howard back as soon as possible.

I mean, obviously I'd like to see more offense from the back end. But as I said before, I don't see Holland parting with assets until the team proves that it can play (and win) consistently. I think the next 12-15 games are critical. First, because they're the games leading up to the trade deadline and we'll have a better idea of who's available (elsewhere as well as for Detroit). But also because we'll finally be playing a steady diet of high quality teams. If we s*** the bed against them, I don't see Holland doing anything. If we split (or heaven forbid, win a majority), I could see him being a little more likely to bring in some help. But this team has to prove itself before a smart GM like Holland is going to go out and spend valuable assets on a run they may not be able to make (even with the help).

[LeftWinger 5,035]

wE SHOULD try to resuce Suter out of the rotting cesspool in Minny...oh, I didn't mean his in-laws.

Also, I mentioned before that there is going to have to be trades made from our D and prospect D within the next two season's. Even if Kindl is traded this year. Q walks after next year, we still have 4 "kids" out of exemptions, 1 in 2015, 3 in 2016. With no room for them all after re-signing Smith and Dekeyser. So Kindl and another roster D man has to go, or trade one of the three valued RD'd kids in GR. Marchenko, Jensen and Sproul. Jensen is out of exemptions this summer, the other 3 next summer, but Oullet is here to stay now.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LeftWinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

I agree completely. Thankfully though, we will win the majority of our upcoming games leading up to the trade deadline, including sweeping our California trip at the end of February... Prompting Holland to go out and make a trade, one that will be a bit of a head scratcher and have some fans calling for his head. The newly acquired Red Wing will go on to play out of his mind, leading the team to it's first Presidents' Trophy since '08, and into the playoffs for the 24th consecutive season, winning their 12th Stanley Cup.......

[kipwinger 8,613]

I agree completely. Thankfully though, we will win the majority of our upcoming games leading up to the trade deadline, including sweeping our California trip at the end of February... Prompting Holland to go out and make a trade, one that will be a bit of a head scratcher and have some fans calling for his head. The newly acquired Red Wing will go on to play out of his mind, leading the team to it's first Presidents' Trophy since '08, and into the playoffs for the 24th consecutive season, winning their 12th Stanley Cup.......

I was just about to edit my other post and say that rather than the next 12-15 games, it's basically all the way up to the trade deadline. The schedule between Feb. 16 and Mar. 4 is disgusting. We better show up, because if we keep playing like we are now that's A LOT of points we're looking to lose.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

wE SHOULD try to resuce Suter out of the rotting cesspool in Minny...oh, I didn't mean his in-laws.

Also, I mentioned before that there is going to have to be trades made from our D and prospect D within the next two season's. Even if Kindl is traded this year. Q walks after next year, we still have 4 "kids" out of exemptions, 1 in 2015, 3 in 2016. With no room for them all after re-signing Smith and Dekeyser. So Kindl and another roster D man has to go, or trade one of the three valued RD'd kids in GR. Marchenko, Jensen and Sproul. Jensen is out of exemptions this summer, the other 3 next summer, but Oullet is here to stay now.

According to...? Jensen signed at age 22 in 2013, which means he's got 3 years of waiver exemption from that date. They have until 2016-17 to figure out Jensen's situation, as well. Doesn't have a huge impact on moving people, but it does buy them some extra time. Or, at least I think... CapGeek would come in handy right now.

[e_prime 1,936]

As I said in the other thread, we've got to win some games (convincingly) before Holland makes a trade. In the past he's made trades to "get us over the hump", not "get us to the hump". This team can't beat good teams right now, and doesn't really look impressive when they beat bad teams. Why give up good young assets for a playoff rental when you are clearly more than a piece or two away from being a contender?

If we play like we did in November, and do it consistently, Holland makes a trade. If we play like we did Saturday, then Holland stands pat. Which is good, because the team I watched Saturday needs a lot more than Jeff Petry to make them a contender.

I hope you're right (about the upcoming games), but I'm not holding my breath.

As far as the first part, I don't doubt we'll make the playoffs. But I"d like to make a little noise once we get there. And I don't hold out a lot of hope for that when I see how we play against playoff caliber teams.

Again, I'd love to be wrong. I'm not even saying the sky is falling. But I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks this team is a contender, or even "heading in the right direction", when they haven't beat anyone good in a month, and have lost to quite a few BAD teams (Florida, Columbus, Toronto, Colorado) during that same stretch.

They need to figure out what they were doing right in November and early December. I wish I knew what it was. I'd email them the answer right now.

Dragged this over from the Lines Thread ( it didn't really belong there)

If we can't win games with Pav, Z, and Kronner being "relatively" healthy... and our youth playing relatively well...

We just don't have right pieces to contend.

We have bursts of good play, but because we can't keep up the play we had back in November...

Unless Holland is willing to stand pat and eek our way into the playoffs again... (oh! yay! #sarcasm)

It's becoming pretty obvious that this roster needs a shake up if we want to win another Cup with our current core.

I think we can all agree that we still need a solid puck-moving D-man for us to contend right now...

...and somebody/bodies need to get moved.

Our current blue-line isn't going to magically turn the corner this season because we pray (or play) real hard.

Certain young D-men that are playing well need to be given time to grow and progress, certain young D-men might be valuable trade assets should be traded.

Veterans that aren't what we need to win -- need to go. Veterans that "do what they do" shouldn't be asked to do things they can't or shouldn't be doing and maybe one of these guys is expendable.

In my opinion, these moves should happen sooner than later.

Not to get us "to the hump" or "over the hump"... but because it's such an obvious need and it has been for some time.

Prices aren't going to get any cheaper for a guy like this. Not via trade. Not in the offseason.

Are we going to once again pray we can get someone in the offseason?

Are we going to pray and hope that Holland can lure someone like Ehrhoff to our team with big bucks?

...or Mike Green at 6+ million or Cody Franson 5+ million, in the offseason?

Great. Those would all be solid pickups. ...but then we still have a logjam on D, with the same problem children we currently have and none of our great prospects in GR able to rotate in.

So what's it gonna be, Kenny?

[LeftWinger 5,035]

According to...? Jensen signed at age 22 in 2013, which means he's got 3 years of waiver exemption from that date. They have until 2016-17 to figure out Jensen's situation, as well. Doesn't have a huge impact on moving people, but it does buy them some extra time. Or, at least I think... CapGeek would come in handy right now.

You may be right since we cannot check capgeek, but I could have swore that the last time I was able to check capgeek, it said he was expempt throught the 2014-15 season. Maybe I was looking at someone else.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

You may be right since we cannot check capgeek, but I could have swore that the last time I was able to check capgeek, it said he was expempt throught the 2014-15 season. Maybe I was looking at someone else.

I believe the one player of consequence who is out of options is Pulkkinen. Not 100%, though.

To be honest, if prices are too high, I could see Kenny standing pat. While it`s not ideal, he doesn't have to make any decisions until 2016-17 on defense. Assuming he moves Kindl this off season, Quincey and Lashoff are off the books for 2016-17. He could simply keep Kronwall, DeKeyser, Ericsson and Smith until then, allow XO to take Kindl's spot next year and let Sproul, Jensen and Marchenko battle for the last two spots heading into that season.

While I don't like this approach, I do think it's entirely possible.

[kipwinger 8,613]

Dragged this over from the Lines Thread ( it didn't really belong there)

If we can't win games with Pav, Z, and Kronner being "relatively" healthy... and our youth playing relatively well...

We just don't have right pieces to contend.

We have bursts of good play, but because we can't keep up the play we had back in November...

Unless Holland is willing to stand pat and eek our way into the playoffs again... (oh! yay! #sarcasm)

It's becoming pretty obvious that this roster needs a shake up if we want to win another Cup with our current core.

I think we can all agree that we still need a solid puck-moving D-man for us to contend right now...

...and somebody/bodies need to get moved.

Our current blue-line isn't going to magically turn the corner this season because we pray (or play) real hard.

Certain young D-men that are playing well need to be given time to grow and progress, certain young D-men might be valuable trade assets should be traded.

Veterans that aren't what we need to win -- need to go. Veterans that "do what they do" shouldn't be asked to do things they can't or shouldn't be doing and maybe one of these guys is expendable.

In my opinion, these moves should happen sooner than later.

Not to get us "to the hump" or "over the hump"... but because it's such an obvious need and it has been for some time.

Prices aren't going to get any cheaper for a guy like this. Not via trade. Not in the offseason.

Are we going to once again pray we can get someone in the offseason?

Are we going to pray and hope that Holland can lure someone like Ehrhoff to our team with big bucks?

...or Mike Green at 6+ million or Cody Franson 5+ million, in the offseason?

Great. Those would all be solid pickups. ...but then we still have a logjam on D, with the same problem children we currently have and none of our great prospects in GR able to rotate in.

So what's it gonna be, Kenny?

I agree, in part. My point is that while a solid puck mover is a necessary condition for being a contender, I don't think (given the way we've been playing) it's a sufficient one. As such, I don't see Holland going out and getting one just to get one.

If, however, we can string together some wins and play well against good teams (i.e. we're better than I think we are) then maybe Holland decides a puck mover is sufficient for Cup contention, and he pulls the trigger.

Right now I think he's trying to figure out which is the case. If the team wants a puck mover before the off-season, they better prove that they can run with the big boys.

[e_prime 1,936]

I agree, in part. My point is that while a solid puck mover is a necessary condition for being a contender, I don't think (given the way we've been playing) it's a sufficient one. As such, I don't see Holland going out and getting one just to get one.

If, however, we can string together some wins and play well against good teams (i.e. we're better than I think we are) then maybe Holland decides a puck mover is sufficient for Cup contention, and he pulls the trigger.

Right now I think he's trying to figure out which is the case. If the team wants a puck mover before the off-season, they better prove that they can run with the big boys.

So, not only do we need the RH puck moving d-man... but to deserve one, we need to play better?

I'm of the mind-set that sustained performance such that we saw in November was an anomaly.

...that we can't and won't see it again without a significant roster shake-up.

How's that for doom and gloom, krsmith?

Edited January 13, 2015 by e_prime

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

I agree, in part. My point is that while a solid puck mover is a necessary condition for being a contender, I don't think (given the way we've been playing) it's a sufficient one. As such, I don't see Holland going out and getting one just to get one.

If, however, we can string together some wins and play well against good teams (i.e. we're better than I think we are) then maybe Holland decides a puck mover is sufficient for Cup contention, and he pulls the trigger.

Right now I think he's trying to figure out which is the case. If the team wants a puck mover before the off-season, they better prove that they can run with the big boys.

Wait... What? the wings are in the playoff picture. If our team isn't good enough then we need to improve via trade, but we can't do that unless our team magically is better?

You are now entering, the scary door

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

We should give marchenko a shot , isn't he a right handed dman as well? And last I checked he was +12 and the next dman wasn't even close

Could put him a few games and rotate smith/ouellet/Quincey to miss a game or 2

[e_prime 1,936]

We should give marchenko a shot , isn't he a right handed dman as well? And last I checked he was +12 and the next dman wasn't even close

Could put him a few games and rotate smith/ouellet/Quincey to miss a game or 2

No offense, man... but in exactly what world does this happen??

I guess the same in which Holland makes a trade for a veteran RH d-man that could help this team, not only now, but for the long run.

[mvanpop 98]

I'm wondering if we find a good top pair rh dman if we should offer Ericsson. GMs are likely laughing at the idea of getting Kindl in return who hasn't even had some consistency. Ericsson is struggling a bit too but he has a lot more experience and might be more enticing.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I agree, in part. My point is that while a solid puck mover is a necessary condition for being a contender, I don't think (given the way we've been playing) it's a sufficient one. As such, I don't see Holland going out and getting one just to get one.

If, however, we can string together some wins and play well against good teams (i.e. we're better than I think we are) then maybe Holland decides a puck mover is sufficient for Cup contention, and he pulls the trigger.

Right now I think he's trying to figure out which is the case. If the team wants a puck mover before the off-season, they better prove that they can run with the big boys.

I get what you're saying, but I feel like the last time Holland did this was when he traded for Stuart. Outside of there being some sort of emergency, or him wanting to bring back a familiar face, Holland just seems content to stand pat. Admittedly, I'm glad he has for the most part, as it's been great to stock up on prospects again. I think this team is in a different place now, though.

I think it's time to pull the trigger on a deal for an offensive defender, whether we're in contention or not. I'm not sure we've got a bona fide top 4, offensive defender in Smith. Maybe it happens in a couple seasons, but I'm not really sold on it. Even if he has that potential, it seems evident that Babcock doesn't trust him, which makes me doubt he'll be played in a role where he can thrive. I know we don't have that in Kindl, and Ericsson has been suspect. In all honesty, Kronwall and DeKeyser are the only guys I trust in a top 4 role right now.

I think Detroit is in a place where they have a piece like Smith (who may flourish in another role, elsewhere), and some other pieces a bit further away like Sproul, Marchenko and Jensen, Backman's rights, a draft pick, one of the extra forwards on this team. I don't think they have the assets to land an elite guy, but I do think they can make a move for a top 4 guy. I'm not advocating a deal for the sake of it - I'm not for overpayment. However, I do think this team needs a legitimate offensive threat on the back end, and that they have the assets to pull it off. Even though I don't think it's likely, I think it's time for Holland to pony up and take a risk.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Jesusberg

[e_prime 1,936]

I think it's time to pull the trigger on a deal for an offensive defender, whether we're in contention or not. I'm not sure we've got a bona fide top 4, offensive defender in Smith. Maybe it happens in a couple seasons, but I'm not really sold on it. Even if he has that potential, it seems evident that Babcock doesn't trust him, which makes me doubt he'll be played in a role where he can thrive. I know we don't have that in Kindl, and Ericsson has been suspect. In all honesty, Kronwall and DeKeyser are the only guys I trust in a top 4 role right now.

If there's one person on this board that agrees with you more than anyone else on this sentiment, it's kip.

[kipwinger 8,613]

Wait... What? the wings are in the playoff picture. If our team isn't good enough then we need to improve via trade, but we can't do that unless our team magically is better?

You are now entering, the scary door

Well unless you believe that "anything can happen once you get in", making the playoffs doesn't make one a contender. If Holland doesn't think we're a contender (rather than just in the playoff picture), then I imagine he'd forgo spending good young assets on a guy like Petry or Green (for example) when he can get either one of them in free agency for a contract and zero prospects, picks, etc.

Sure this team is in the playoff picture, but they currently can't beat other playoff caliber teams. So even though they'll likely make the playoffs, if they're probably not a Cup contender. As such I don't see him spending assets on something he can get for nothing in free agency in July.

If they prove me wrong and start beating good teams, then maybe he will. It's really not difficult logic folks.

Edited January 13, 2015 by kipwinger

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Well unless you believe that "anything can happen once you get in", making the playoffs doesn't make one a contender. If Holland doesn't think we're a contender (rather than just in the playoff picture), then I imagine he'd forgo spending good young assets on a guy like Petry or Green (for example) when he can get either one of them in free agency for a contract and zero prospects, picks, etc.

Sure this team is in the playoff picture, but they currently can't beat other playoff caliber teams. So even though they'll likely make the playoffs, if they're probably not a Cup contender. As such I don't see him spending assets on something he can get for nothing in free agency in July.

If they prove me wrong and start beating good teams, then maybe he will. It's really not difficult logic folks.

Which makes sense, but I think two factors come into play.

#1: Do those guys choose to come to Detroit? I'm not saying Detroit isn't a destination, but I do think that guys going to FA creates bidding wars. That, and if someone comes to this team, brass has a chance to win them over/get them to buy into the program. That said, if a guy wants to cash in, he wants to cash in.

#2: If you sign one of those guys as a free agent, you're likely leaving out Ouellet. I'm not sure your take on it, but I want him on this team full time. This is assuming they can unload Kindl, too. It's possible Kenny moves Kindl, and waives Lashoff to make room for a free agent and XO (Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Green/Petry, Quincey, Smith & Ouellet). In that case, someone's rotating in who, IMO, should be playing on a nightly basis.

[kipwinger 8,613]

Which makes sense, but I think two factors come into play.

#1: Do those guys choose to come to Detroit? I'm not saying Detroit isn't a destination, but I do think that guys going to FA creates bidding wars. That, and if someone comes to this team, brass has a chance to win them over/get them to buy into the program. That said, if a guy wants to cash in, he wants to cash in.

#2: If you sign one of those guys as a free agent, you're likely leaving out Ouellet. I'm not sure your take on it, but I want him on this team full time. This is assuming they can unload Kindl, too. It's possible Kenny moves Kindl, and waives Lashoff to make room for a free agent and XO (Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Green/Petry, Quincey, Smith & Ouellet). In that case, someone's rotating in who, IMO, should be playing on a nightly basis.

Two legit points, but both still exist if you trade for a pending FA anyway. You're going to have to get them to choose Detroit and sign a contract either way. But in only one of the two instances will they be losing assets. Given how notoriously tight fisted Holland is, I just don't seeing him giving away assets unless he can make a run at the Cup.

But points taken. And agree with.

Edited January 13, 2015 by kipwinger

[Echolalia 2,961]

Wait... What? the wings are in the playoff picture. If our team isn't good enough then we need to improve via trade, but we can't do that unless our team magically is better?

You are now entering, the scary door

+1 for Futurama

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Which makes sense, but I think two factors come into play.

#1: Do those guys choose to come to Detroit? I'm not saying Detroit isn't a destination, but I do think that guys going to FA creates bidding wars. That, and if someone comes to this team, brass has a chance to win them over/get them to buy into the program. That said, if a guy wants to cash in, he wants to cash in.

#2: If you sign one of those guys as a free agent, you're likely leaving out Ouellet. I'm not sure your take on it, but I want him on this team full time. This is assuming they can unload Kindl, too. It's possible Kenny moves Kindl, and waives Lashoff to make room for a free agent and XO (Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Green/Petry, Quincey, Smith & Ouellet). In that case, someone's rotating in who, IMO, should be playing on a nightly basis.

I agree 100%

for #1 - Petry is from Michigan - I think that is at least something and he could very well want to come here.

for #2 - Quincey will be in his final year of his contract and he's been playing quite well - I think he could be unloaded pretty easily if we started with the scenario that you describe.

Edited January 13, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kipwinger 8,613]

I agree 100%

for #1 - Petry is from Michigan - I think that is at least something and he could very well want to come here.

for #2 - Quincey will be in his final year of his contract and he's been playing quite well - I think he could be unloaded pretty easily if we started with the scenario that you describe.

Jesus I hope we don't give up assets for Jeff Petry. I don't mind him as a player, but I don't see him helping our blue line THAT much. Why not wait and get him in the offseason. You're right, he's from Michigan so presumably we've got the inside track on him (if the endless talk of UFAs 'going home' has any validity to it).

[krsmith17 7,191]

I wouldn't mind going after Petry. We wouldn't have to give up a ton to get him. I would think something along the lines of Kindl, mid level prospect (Backman) and a mid round draft pick... I'd be okay with that.

[kipwinger 8,613]

I wouldn't mind going after Petry. We wouldn't have to give up a ton to get him. I would think something along the lines of Kindl, mid level prospect (Backman) and a mid round draft pick... I'd be okay with that.

I'd be ok with that too. Somebody (Pittsburgh) will give more though. And I'd hate to lose any decent prospects for a guy I can sign this offseason.