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nyqvististhefuture

Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

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No, not at all. Stats are telling but they don't tell the whole story. Smith is better than his stats suggest because he SHOULD be getting top 4 minutes (in my opinion), and he WOULD be a top 4 defenseman with 25+ other teams (in my opinion).

Give me a break. Are you suggesting that our top four is SOOOO good, that he can't break into it? He literally only has to be out (one of) Kyle Quincey or Jonathan Ericsson. Not exactly all stars. He can't do it.

I constantly state as facts? Are you kidding me? I make a conscious effort to make the point of saying "in my opinion" as much as possible, so that people like yourself wouldn't confuse it as me trying to state my opinion as fact. I apologize if I don't always say "in my opinion", but I think that's the case for almost every single conversation on a sports forum... especially when it comes to debating a players worth...

Fair enough. Let me correct myself. You constantly state opinions which aren't supported by current facts but which MAY be true in the future.

Yeah, it's impossible to think that a coach doesn't always put players in situations to succeed... As much as you hate on Babcock (almost as much as Smith), you sure give him a ton of credit for giving all his players the appropriate amount of ice time...

Not at all. I hated on Babs for his handling of Weiss' ice time. Wanna know the difference? Weiss was demoted to the fourth line while scoring over a point per game for ten straight games. I don't ***** about how he uses Smith because Smith has done nothing equivalent to this. He doesn't score. He doesn't hit. He doesn't block shots. He doesn't protect the puck. He doesn't shoot much. Why does he deserve more ice time? Oh right, because he's got potential.

Why is it that Weiss gets demoted to the 3rd line and it's all "WTF has Weiss done to deserve this" from kipwinger, but if Smith is demoted to the 3rd pairing, it's "well he just isn't a top 4 defenseman"...

Weiss got demoted while scoring more than a point per game. That's why. Smith hasn't even come close to similar success at his position. Weiss is also an established top six forward, with over ten years experience, who's scored 40+ points in six of those seasons. He's earned his spot in this league. Brendan hasn't EARNED anything.

The fact that you don't see the difference between the two shows just how skewed your perception of Smith really is.

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There's still the elephant in the room: Jakey Kindl.

I was picturing him as the HS in my scenario, sending Marchenko back down to GR, considering I don't think Toronto would take Kindl as part of the deal. They could always go with eight defenders, so long as Mule is on IR, but I'm not sure that's ideal.

It would be ideal to move a roster play in pretty much any deal the team makes for another defender, as the team's going to need the room moving forward.

I just assume he'll be waived.

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If Detroit does manage to land Franson, I would definitely be hesitant to break up DeQuincey. First instinct would be to put DeKeyser with Franson, but then we'd have a Smith-Quincey pairing, and we all know how that worked out... Big Rig's been better lately (at least offensively), but I think that's where I'd slot in Franson. I agree that Smith-Franson would likely be a disaster. These would be two different looks I'd explore if the team adds Franson.

Kronwall-Ericsson

Quincey-Franson

DeKeyser-Smith

Kronwall-Franson

DeKeyser-Quincey

Smith-Ericsson

Obviously, these aren't the only options, but I'm trying to avoid pairings that haven't worked out in the past. I'm not as sold on that first group. As solid as Quincey has looked this year, I'm not sure I trust him to hold down that pair defensively.

Agreed, on all counts.

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No, I'm not suggesting that our top 4 is sooo good that he can't break into it. I'm suggesting that as it stands right now, our top 4 is set in stone, because Mike Babcock has it set in stone. I think Smith is better than both Ericsson and Quincey, and when given the opportunity he has shown that he is capable in being a top 4 defender on this team. Do you think it's just coincidence that Smith has looked his best when in the top 4, paired with Kronwall and DeKeyser?

Why do you have this notion that an opinion must be supported by facts? An opinion, is just that... an opinion. I don't need facts to back up that I believe Smith is a top 4 defenseman. Is it really that hard to believe that he could be better than his stats show? I mean, any time he is given the opportunity with a legitimate partner he has done quite well. The little power-play time he gets, and I'm not talking about when Babcock throws him out with our 4th line power-play unit at the end of games when the game is already out of reach, I'm talking about the few times he has been put out there on the second unit, and they were actually able to set something up, he has looked great.

Give me a break, Weiss has had ONE good game (3 points against Florida) since being demoted. It's not like he's been lighting the league on fire on the 3rd line with Sheahan and Glendening, just like Smith can't be expected to light the league on fire on the 3rd pairing with Kindl, Lashoff, Ouellet, Marchenko, etc... Other than that one game against the Panthers, Weiss has 2 points and a -5 in his past 14 games. This isn't a knock on Weiss, I think he should have better line mates, just like Smith should have a better defense partner...

Smith hasn't earned ANYTHING because he hasn't been given the opportunity to prove himself. It's not easy to produce offense from the third pairing when you're paired with scrubs and you're expected to play a shut-down role, something Smith is only recently learning to do.

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No, I'm not suggesting that our top 4 is sooo good that he can't break into it. I'm suggesting that as it stands right now, our top 4 is set in stone, because Mike Babcock has it set in stone. I think Smith is better than both Ericsson and Quincey, and when given the opportunity he has shown that he is capable in being a top 4 defender on this team. Do you think it's just coincidence that Smith has looked his best when in the top 4, paired with Kronwall and DeKeyser?

Why do you have this notion that an opinion must be supported by facts? An opinion, is just that... an opinion. I don't need facts to back up that I believe Smith is a top 4 defenseman. Is it really that hard to believe that he could be better than his stats show? I mean, any time he is given the opportunity with a legitimate partner he has done quite well. The little power-play time he gets, and I'm not talking about when Babcock throws him out with our 4th line power-play unit at the end of games when the game is already out of reach, I'm talking about the few times he has been put out there on the second unit, and they were actually able to set something up, he has looked great.

Give me a break, Weiss has had ONE good game (3 points against Florida) since being demoted. It's not like he's been lighting the league on fire on the 3rd line with Sheahan and Glendening, just like Smith can't be expected to light the league on fire on the 3rd pairing with Kindl, Lashoff, Ouellet, Marchenko, etc... Other than that one game against the Panthers, Weiss has 2 points and a -5 in his past 14 games. This isn't a knock on Weiss, I think he should have better line mates, just like Smith should have a better defense partner...

Smith hasn't earned ANYTHING because he hasn't been given the opportunity to prove himself. It's not easy to produce offense from the third pairing when you're paired with scrubs and you're expected to play a shut-down role, something Smith is only recently learning to do.

Lol. You're right, Smith is a stud who's just not been given the opportunity to succeed because he's been carrying the water for scrubs. Screw stats and facts. You win.

Edited by kipwinger

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No, not at all. Stats are telling but they don't tell the whole story. Smith is better than his stats suggest because he SHOULD be getting top 4 minutes (in my opinion), and he WOULD be a top 4 defenseman with 25+ other teams (in my opinion).

I get that you think Smith should be getting PP time, that might boos his points. But how are bad stats against worse competition in any way indicative that's he's a better hockey player than people think? Let's say he's in the top 4 instead of Quincey. Does he score more than Quincey has in his added 1:08 per game? Maybe. Is the pair worse defensively? Yes. He's not a top 4 defenseman on this team and he wouldn't be a top 4 defenseman on most other teams either.

It's like Babs always says. "Players always say if you give me more ice time I'll produce more, and I always say produce more and I'll give you more ice time." It's not a hard concept to understand. If he was seen or produced like a top 4 guy, he'd be getting top 4 minutes. He's not and he's not so that should sum it up.

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I get that you think Smith should be getting PP time, that might boos his points. But how are bad stats against worse competition in any way indicative that's he's a better hockey player than people think? Let's say he's in the top 4 instead of Quincey. Does he score more than Quincey has in his added 1:08 per game? Maybe. Is the pair worse defensively? Yes. He's not a top 4 defenseman on this team and he wouldn't be a top 4 defenseman on most other teams either.

It's like Babs always says. "Players always say if you give me more ice time I'll produce more, and I always say produce more and I'll give you more ice time." It's not a hard concept to understand. If he was seen or produced like a top 4 guy, he'd be getting top 4 minutes. He's not and he's not so that should sum it up.

Nah. Screw stats, they don't matter. His opinion is that Smith is better than two of our top four defensemen. It doesn't matter if evidence doesn't support this, it's his opinion; so how can it be dumb? :lol:

Edited by kipwinger

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I disagree. It has more to do with his partner than it does his minutes. Like I've said over and over and over and over again. Smith HAS looked good in a top 4 role, paired with DeKeyser, hell, even a top 2 role, paired with Kronwall... He can and has produced when given the opportunity. Yes, he would produce more being paired with DeKeyser, and no the pair would not be much worse, if at all, then it currently is... He is a top 4 defenseman and he would be with a number of other teams in this league, and that is my opinion...

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Lol. You're right, Smith is a stud who's just not been given the opportunity to succeed because he's been carrying the water for scrubs. Screw stats and facts. You win.

Smiths advanced stats are actually pretty good. Hes a better possession player than Dekeyser who gets a way longer leash from wings fans than Smith even though he isnt perfect. Smith was arguably (IMO was) the wings best dman in the playoffs last year against Boston and was great on the top pair after the Olympics. When he has been given the opportunity in the top 4 Smith has actually been really good.

I would like to see your stats and facts that support what youre saying.

Last season Smith's ES production was tied with Shattenkirk, a point off Drew Doughty, 3 off Krug etc and he was ahead of guys like Franson, Wideman, and Enstrom. For his limited ice time Smith was very productive. I'm not saying hes a stud but hes actually solid when hes in the top 4, unlike what youre saying.

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Smiths advanced stats are actually pretty good. Hes a better possession player than Dekeyser who gets a way longer leash from wings fans than Smith even though he isnt perfect. Smith was arguably (IMO was) the wings best dman in the playoffs last year against Boston and was great on the top pair after the Olympics. When he has been given the opportunity in the top 4 Smith has actually been really good.

I would like to see your stats and facts that support what youre saying.

Last season Smith's ES production was tied with Shattenkirk, a point off Drew Doughty, 3 off Krug etc and he was ahead of guys like Franson, Wideman, and Enstrom. For his limited ice time Smith was very productive. I'm not saying hes a stud but hes actually solid when hes in the top 4, unlike what youre saying.

I've provided his stats compared to our other defensemen over and over and over again. Even Krsmith17 will acknowledge that much, which is why he says "I know, I know...stats". If you want to see them, look them up.

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What would you guys think of Kenny if he got Franson for a pick and prospect, then acquired Jagr for a pick? Do you think that would help us up front? Guess the playoff experience and leadership from Jagr couldn't hurt for a run at it, would it?

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What would you guys think of Kenny if he got Franson for a pick and prospect, then acquired Jagr for a pick? Do you think that would help us up front? Guess the playoff experience and leadership from Jagr couldn't hurt for a run at it, would it?

Nah. He's too slow. It doesn't fit with our team dynamic. Plus, between Dats, Z, Kronwall, Ericsson, Helm, Abby, Miller, Quincey, etc. we've got plenty of playoff experience and leadership.

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What would you guys think of Kenny if he got Franson for a pick and prospect, then acquired Jagr for a pick? Do you think that would help us up front? Guess the playoff experience and leadership from Jagr couldn't hurt for a run at it, would it?

Define "pick" in both cases.

Also, not sure where Jagr would slot in. He demands PP and top six minutes.

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Define "pick" in both cases.

Also, not sure where Jagr would slot in. He demands PP and top six minutes.

@TGfireandice: Jagr stated more than once today that teams interested in him should know he'd be willing to play a reduced role.

@TGfireandice: The other interesting thing Jagr said today is he plans to play in the NHL next season and would go on a camp tryout if neccessary.

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I say "I know, I know, stats..." because you like to continue to point out his 9 points in 47 games... What about all those advanced stats that newfy mentioned? No comment on any of that?

Jesus Christ...since you two brought it up

Corsi stats (5 on 5)...

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?disp=1&db=201415&sit=5v5&pos=defense&minutes=50&teamid=11&type=individual&sort=icorsi&sortdir=DESC

Fenwick (5 on 5)...

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?disp=1&db=201415&sit=5v5&pos=defense&minutes=50&teamid=11&type=individual&sort=ifenwick&sortdir=DESC

Offensive Zone Starts (5 on 5) : http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1560

Ericsson: 31%

Kronwall: 32%

Dekeyser 32%

Quincey: 34%

Smith: 40%

Note: On the zone starts, you have to follow the link and then look up each player individually since they don't have them all in the same spot.

Fancy enough for you, or no? Let me guess, you guys were probably talking about some other fancy stats or something right?

How much more absurd does this need to get?

Brendan Smith is NOT a top defenseman on this team. Get over it.

Edited by kipwinger

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What would you guys think of Kenny if he got Franson for a pick and prospect, then acquired Jagr for a pick? Do you think that would help us up front? Guess the playoff experience and leadership from Jagr couldn't hurt for a run at it, would it?

No to Jagr I thought the point of this retool/rebuild was to get younger not older ? Wings need help on defense but according to BM the price for Franson is a first + a prospect I wouldn't give that up for a soon to be UFA he would be a pure rental.

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Just for funsies I looked up Brendan's "fancy stats" once you adjust for zone starts (taking away his sheltering), and it's not pretty. Here's a taste...

Zone start adjusted Corsi and Fenwick:

Ericsson...57 and 84 respectively.

Quincey...62 and 110 respectively.

Smith...39 and 64 respectively.

Ouch. Looks like "fancy stats" won't be your refuge after all.

Sooo should I keep going with this or did you guys want to just eat your crow now?

Note: As with the zone starts, you've got to follow the link and look up each player respectively. Have fun.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/players.php

Edited by kipwinger

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Ok, Ok, that was a emotional blurp there...wait to see if Jimmy can win that series orbetter yet, take us deep (ewww) this spring...then come draft day, BAM! Howard for Bogo/Stewart/1st.

Yes, I am in dream land, but if Jimmy pukes again in the playoffs...off with his head! (contract)

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Just for funsies I looked up Brendan's "fancy stats" once you adjust for zone starts (taking away his sheltering), and it's not pretty. Here's a taste...

Zone start adjusted Corsi and Fenwick:

Ericsson...57 and 84 respectively.

Quincey...62 and 110 respectively.

Smith...39 and 64 respectively.

Ouch. Looks like "fancy stats" won't be your refuge after all.

Sooo should I keep going with this or did you guys want to just eat your crow now?

Note: As with the zone starts, you've got to follow the link and look up each player respectively. Have fun.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/players.php

After spending the last hour looking at advanced stats, I believe it can easily be argued that Kindl is a much better D-man than Smith. Corsi numbers anyway. I'd need another hour for Fenwick.

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