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wings7

At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

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How do you define "competitive"? Winning the Stanley Cup every year?

Holland's Wings are competitive. They win more than they lose. They go to the playoffs, EVERY YEAR. They're just a couple players away from a championship team.

There are 30 teams. 30 GMs.

53% chance of making the playoffs

27% chance of making it to the second round

13% chance of making it to the conference finals

7% chance of making it to the cup finals

3% chance of winning the cup

Under Holland since '97, this is how we've done:

100% - Made Playoffs

64% - made it to second round

31% - made it to conference finals

25% - made it to Stanley Cup finals

19% - won Stanley Cup

It's time for people to chill. You can't always win, but damn, we sure do win more than we don't.

Some people don't understand parity and what the salary cap does. They can't get over the fact this isn't pre 2005 anymore.

Boston was the president trophy winners last year. Missed the playoffs.

LA Kings won the Stanley Cup last year. Missed the playoffs.

Wow, must really suck to be a Wings fan....

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Holland deserves blame for sticking with over the hill players (Weiss, Cleary, Samuelsson, Cole, Zidlicky etc.) WAY too long and not finding the players who are on the cusp of blossoming and acquiring them. Usually by the time a player becomes a UFA, they are over halfway done with their career and we pretty much know what they are going to be. Younger players aren't worried about self-preservation and "life after hockey" and they give you 100%. A player who is worried about his health long term and his investment portfolio might give you 95% but he is always subconsciously holding something back and being afraid of getting injured. Brendan Shanahan mentioned this in an interview I remembered and I thought it was an outstanding insight. And no, I don't have a link to it. It was in a thing called a newspaper.

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0% chance Phaneuf gets dealt for his full contract to any team

Leafs will have to suck it up and pay part of his salary

Well the Leafs can always take back another bad contract to even the caphit. As much as people like to question Phaneuf he is tasked to play over his capabilities in Toronto I honestly believe he would do well here.

Which other realistic and not too expensive option is available ? Boychuck is re-signed and I highly doubt the Hawks will make Seabrook available anytime soon.

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Some people don't understand parity and what the salary cap does. They can't get over the fact this isn't pre 2005 anymore.

Boston was the president trophy winners last year. Missed the playoffs.

LA Kings won the Stanley Cup last year. Missed the playoffs.

Wow, must really suck to be a Wings fan....

Yea I don't understand what fans expect. If people want to cheer for a team that signs UFA's, then they should switch teams. Is there Red Wings fans out there that still don't understand how the organization builds a team? I think it's obvious.

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Guest Playmaker

Holland deserves blame for sticking with over the hill players (Weiss, Cleary, Samuelsson, Cole, Zidlicky etc.) WAY too long and not finding the players who are on the cusp of blossoming and acquiring them. Usually by the time a player becomes a UFA, they are over halfway done with their career and we pretty much know what they are going to be. Younger players aren't worried about self-preservation and "life after hockey" and they give you 100%. A player who is worried about his health long term and his investment portfolio might give you 95% but he is always subconsciously holding something back and being afraid of getting injured. Brendan Shanahan mentioned this in an interview I remembered and I thought it was an outstanding insight. And no, I don't have a link to it. It was in a thing called a newspaper.

Okay, so all he has to do is acquire young high level players on the cusp of greatness, pay them what they're worth, fit them all in under the salary cap and give them all the ice time they want. SMH, why didn't Kenny Holland think of this first!?!?! I mean, get real. Every team just can't wait to trade blossoming stars to the Red Wings. No doubt, too, that they'd take Cleary, Zid or a 5th round pick for said players.

Not sure how he could have stuck with Cole and Zidlicky too long as he just acquired them at the trade deadline and Cole only played 7 games before being injured. Weiss has had injury problems since he was signed as the #1 free agent available that year and hasn't been given ample opportunity by Babs to right the ship. So I'm sure other teams are lining up and will give the Wings all those up and coming hungry young stars for him. Cleary was kept around too long, but he rarely cracked the line up this year, and wasn't a horrible liability when he was in.

When the Wings won the Cup in 2002, they weren't old, they were experienced, savvy veterans who knew how to win.

Edited by Playmaker

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Some people don't understand parity and what the salary cap does. They can't get over the fact this isn't pre 2005 anymore.

Boston was the president trophy winners last year. Missed the playoffs.

LA Kings won the Stanley Cup last year. Missed the playoffs.

Wow, must really suck to be a Wings fan....

Completely agree. The Wings are the model that the other NHL teams try to follow. This is why I find it funny when Wings fans have temper tantrums because we haven't won a cup in 7 YEARS! 29 other fan bases just look at us and role their eyes.

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Blame Holland? Absolutely.

He deserves a ton of credit for supplying us with the deepest crop of prospects in the league and great cap position.

Kudos Holland.

When you're under the microscope it doesn't matter how much good you do, one small mistake and you're "losing your touch" two small mistakes and "OMG FIRE HIM NOW."

Nobody's perfect, but Holland's closer than most.

Edited by number9

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Well the Leafs can always take back another bad contract to even the caphit. As much as people like to question Phaneuf he is tasked to play over his capabilities in Toronto I honestly believe he would do well here.

Which other realistic and not too expensive option is available ? Boychuck is re-signed and I highly doubt the Hawks will make Seabrook available anytime soon.

If we get Phaneuf he'll most likely be in the same situation, but older and probably playing on his off side.

Even considering that, he might be the best d-man available. :confused:

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Well the Leafs can always take back another bad contract to even the caphit. As much as people like to question Phaneuf he is tasked to play over his capabilities in Toronto I honestly believe he would do well here.

Which other realistic and not too expensive option is available ? Boychuck is re-signed and I highly doubt the Hawks will make Seabrook available anytime soon.

If we get Phaneuf he'll most likely be in the same situation, but older and probably playing on his off side.

Even considering that, he might be the best d-man available. :confused:

Well we have Kronner as the number 1, so Phaneuf could slide in as a number 2 or even a nice complementary piece to pair with DannyD.

I also think he is the best available one because 1. I think Seabrook will stay with the hawks and 2. Green is another risk because of his injury history

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Some people don't understand parity and what the salary cap does. They can't get over the fact this isn't pre 2005 anymore.

Boston was the president trophy winners last year. Missed the playoffs.

LA Kings won the Stanley Cup last year. Missed the playoffs.

Wow, must really suck to be a Wings fan....

I would take a Cup this year if it meant missing the playoffs next year.

Versus making the playoffs both years and losing each time in the first round.

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I would take a Cup this year if it meant missing the playoffs next year.

Versus making the playoffs both years and losing each time in the first round.

I think anyone would take a cup and miss the playoffs.

I'm just saying, the parity of the league shows you can win a cup one year, then miss the playoffs the next. Or you can finish the season as the "best regular season team" (Bruins) but the next year miss the playoffs. Detroit isn't a dominant Hockey team anymore, and neither are the other 29 teams.

The only constant is Detroit still continues to make the playoffs while all 29 other teams miss them - which in it's own regard is highly impressive.

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Not sure how he could have stuck with Cole and Zidlicky too long as he just acquired them at the trade deadline and Cole only played 7 games before being injured. Weiss has had injury problems since he was signed as the #1 free agent available that year and hasn't been given ample opportunity by Babs to right the ship. So I'm sure other teams are lining up and will give the Wings all those up and coming hungry young stars for him. Cleary was kept around too long, but he rarely cracked the line up this year, and wasn't a horrible liability when he was in.

The point is, Cole would have been a great pickup 5-7 years ago. Zidlicky is past his "trade for" date. I'm seeing Tyler Seguin get traded to Dallas, I'm seeing James Neil go to Nashville, I'm seeing Kenny miss out on Burns a few years ago, not knowing he was even on the block, for example, not saying these players are perfect fits for the Wings, but other teams are managing to get it done. Now that we have an actual farm system and young players, trade a few picks.

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The point is, Cole would have been a great pickup 5-7 years ago. Zidlicky is past his "trade for" date. I'm seeing Tyler Seguin get traded to Dallas, I'm seeing James Neil go to Nashville, I'm seeing Kenny miss out on Burns a few years ago, not knowing he was even on the block, for example, not saying these players are perfect fits for the Wings, but other teams are managing to get it done. Now that we have an actual farm system and young players, trade a few picks.

Yeah? Who did you wanna give up to get those players? A lot of assets went the other way in all those trades

Edited by number9

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Some people don't understand parity and what the salary cap does. They can't get over the fact this isn't pre 2005 anymore.

Boston was the president trophy winners last year. Missed the playoffs.

LA Kings won the Stanley Cup last year. Missed the playoffs.

Wow, must really suck to be a Wings fan....

Boston fired their gm and there's a very good chance they will fire their coach too. Just making the playoffs isn't good enough for them.

The penguins fired their gm and coach last year for underachieving and let's not forget they have won the cup more recently than us as well as making it past the second round more recently than us.

The Kings just won a cup last year so their situation isn't really comparable. They are allowed a free pass. But I bet if they miss the post season again next year there will be another gm and head coach vacancy.

The point is other franchises don't accept making the playoffs as good enough. We shouldn't either. Over half the teams make the playoffs. Just making it means you're little better than average.

We're 6 years removed now from a deep post season run. Think about where you were 6 years ago and how much has changed since then. It's a long time. And it's an eternity in sports.

Holland had made plenty of great moves yes. But he's also made plenty of bad ones also and he deserves a good amount of the blame for our post season failures since after all it's his job to run the team and everyone ultimately answered to him. Does that mean we fire him now? No. But the seat should start to be heating up at this point. You only get so many free passes.

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Boston fired their gm and there's a very good chance they will fire their coach too. Just making the playoffs isn't good enough for them.

The penguins fired their gm and coach last year for underachieving and let's not forget they have won the cup more recently than us as well as making it past the second round more recently than us.

The Kings just won a cup last year so their situation isn't really comparable. They are allowed a free pass. But I bet if they miss the post season again next year there will be another gm and head coach vacancy.

The point is other franchises don't accept making the playoffs as good enough. We shouldn't either. Over half the teams make the playoffs. Just making it means you're little better than average.

We're 6 years removed now from a deep post season run. Think about where you were 6 years ago and how much has changed since then. It's a long time. And it's an eternity in sports.

Holland had made plenty of great moves yes. But he's also made plenty of bad ones also and he deserves a good amount of the blame for our post season failures since after all it's his job to run the team and everyone ultimately answered to him. Does that mean we fire him now? No. But the seat should start to be heating up at this point. You only get so many free passes.

Yup, just making it in isn't good enough for them... they'd rather miss completely

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Boston fired their gm and there's a very good chance they will fire their coach too. Just making the playoffs isn't good enough for them.

The penguins fired their gm and coach last year for underachieving and let's not forget they have won the cup more recently than us as well as making it past the second round more recently than us.

The Kings just won a cup last year so their situation isn't really comparable. They are allowed a free pass. But I bet if they miss the post season again next year there will be another gm and head coach vacancy.

The point is other franchises don't accept making the playoffs as good enough. We shouldn't either. Over half the teams make the playoffs. Just making it means you're little better than average.

We're 6 years removed now from a deep post season run. Think about where you were 6 years ago and how much has changed since then. It's a long time. And it's an eternity in sports.

Holland had made plenty of great moves yes. But he's also made plenty of bad ones also and he deserves a good amount of the blame for our post season failures since after all it's his job to run the team and everyone ultimately answered to him. Does that mean we fire him now? No. But the seat should start to be heating up at this point. You only get so many free passes.

Uh, The Bruins missed the playoffs. "Just making the playoffs" may have been enough for the GM to keep his job - we don't know. He traded away a young star who is now thriving with Seguin, and put the team in a cap situation where they had to trade away boychuck, and couldn't re-sign Iginla. This clear mismanagement put them in the position that they went from a top team to missing the playoffs

Pens' GM got fired because they mortgaged the future on deadline acquisitions that failed and have failed supply complimentary players around a core that should be good enough to go far.

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I wouldn't mind Holland taking bigger risks of the contracts are short. I think the lifetime contracts he pioneered, that have now taken over the league, are what is making the league feel fairly stagnant to me.

Limit contracts to three or four years and you'll see more turnover, less caution and more exciting parity.

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Boston fired their gm and there's a very good chance they will fire their coach too. Just making the playoffs isn't good enough for them.

The penguins fired their gm and coach last year for underachieving and let's not forget they have won the cup more recently than us as well as making it past the second round more recently than us.

The Kings just won a cup last year so their situation isn't really comparable. They are allowed a free pass. But I bet if they miss the post season again next year there will be another gm and head coach vacancy.

The point is other franchises don't accept making the playoffs as good enough. We shouldn't either. Over half the teams make the playoffs. Just making it means you're little better than average.

We're 6 years removed now from a deep post season run. Think about where you were 6 years ago and how much has changed since then. It's a long time. And it's an eternity in sports.

Holland had made plenty of great moves yes. But he's also made plenty of bad ones also and he deserves a good amount of the blame for our post season failures since after all it's his job to run the team and everyone ultimately answered to him. Does that mean we fire him now? No. But the seat should start to be heating up at this point. You only get so many free passes.

There is so much wrong in this post, I won't even bother.

I will leave this though. Comparing a team that made the playoffs 24 years in a row, never picking above 15th in a quarter of a century to any other team in the Playoffs is beyond pathetic, they all would trade positions in a heartbeat.

Wings took Tampa to 7 games this year, and should have really won the series. They would have beat Montreal as well. Wings really sucked last year, but we were missing Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Ericsson plus it was the kids first playoffs. The year before that we took out Anaheim in 7 games, then we went on a took Chicago to 7 games OT.

In case you didn't notice, we are still a team that every single team does not want to play in the playoffs when we have all our players. Lastly I will leave this.

24 - Red Wings (Best pick, 15th overall last year)

8 - Pittsburgh (4 top 5 picks in the last 8 years, including 2 1st overalls)

Let that soak in for a while.

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The penguins fired their gm and coach last year for underachieving and let's not forget they have won the cup more recently than us as well as making it past the second round more recently than us.

I think this is a good example of how just firing your GM/coach don't necessarily make things better.

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Well the problem was that Shero has tied his future to Bylsma and since they've failed again both were fired although Shero hasn't done a bad job.

Hate to admit it but after the Pens win the Stanley Cup I've thought they'd be on the verge of becoming a dynasty.

Firing a coach and GM brings in different challenges that's why it usually isn't done until qualified Preston's persons are available either in-house or from the outside

Also I would trade that ever so important streak for the chance to draft a guy like McDavid, Hall, Hanifin or Strome and not having to worry about the two most important positions for another decade...instead if clinching on to a streak and going out in the 1 first round and therefore not getting a top pick.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Well the problem was that Shero has tied his future to Bylsma and since they've failed again both were fired although Shero hasn't done a bad job. Hate to admit it but after the Pens win the Stanley Cup I've thought they'd be on the verge of becoming a dynasty. Firing a coach and GM brings in different challenges that's why it usually isn't done until qualified Preston's persons are available either in-house or from the outside Also I would trade that ever so important streak for the chance to draft a guy like McDavid, Hall, Hanifin or Strome and not having to worry about the two most important positions for another decade...instead if clinching on to a streak and going out in the 1 first round and therefore not getting a top pick.

So you think Holland should trade away all of our vets, and a ton our our young guys, just for a CHANCE to land one of those top picks?

Look at last season, even with half our team hurt we still got in the playoffs. You cant guarantee yourself a top pick unless you just unload everyone. Plus, one player does not make or break a team. Look at Dallas with Seguin, or Edmonton with what seems to be all the top picks of the 2000's, you can have a top player and still suck. Tanking it is stupid because it guarantees nothing.

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So you think Holland should trade away all of our vets, and a ton our our young guys, just for a CHANCE to land one of those top picks?

Look at last season, even with half our team hurt we still got in the playoffs. You cant guarantee yourself a top pick unless you just unload everyone. Plus, one player does not make or break a team. Look at Dallas with Seguin, or Edmonton with what seems to be all the top picks of the 2000's, you can have a top player and still suck. Tanking it is stupid because it guarantees nothing.

Orr - McDavid - Mcgrattan

McLaren - Eichel - Gadzic

How would that not be the best two forward lines ever???

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