Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

[kickazz 5,459]

When Z's jersey gets retired, the first person we laugh at is Jonas. Then Leftwinger since he started that propoganda fake news about Swedes wanting to play for their national team over the Red Wings or whatever that rubbish was. For years until they all declined the national team invites in favor of the Red Wings and he finally shut up.

Edited April 5, 2018 by kickazz

[chaps80 1,591]

9 hours ago, kickazz said:

Why before Z? Zetterberg was an assistant captain since like his 3rd year in the NHL and eventual Captain. He’s top 5 in almost every offensive category for the Red Wings franchise now. And he did it in a much harder era than other forwards did.. That guy is def going up first.

Not disputing that he's had a great career. He's more than deserving of having his number retired. I just think Osgood should go up first. The guy has to be the most underappreciated goaltender in Wings history. Is it because he wasn't flashy and wasn't in the top 5 of his era? Because all he did was stay quiet and win games? Cause of his old school bucket he refused to change? lol

 401 reg season wins, 50 shutouts and a 2.49 GAA. 74 playoff wins, 15 shutouts and a 2.09 GAA. Three Cups, two Jennings, would have added a Smythe had they finished off the Pens in '09.

Raise the damn banner already. HUGE part of Detroit's success in the contending years. Some were saying the 2008 team was one of the most dominant championship teams of the 2000's. Without Osgood, that Cup doesn't happen.

[kickazz 5,459]

3 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Not disputing that he's had a great career. He's more than deserving of having his number retired. I just think Osgood should go up first. The guy has to be the most underappreciated goaltender in Wings history. Is it because he wasn't flashy and wasn't in the top 5 of his era? Because all he did was stay quiet and win games? Cause of his old school bucket he refused to change? lol

 401 reg season wins, 50 shutouts and a 2.49 GAA. 74 playoff wins, 15 shutouts and a 2.09 GAA. Three Cups, two Jennings, would have added a Smythe had they finished off the Pens in '09.

Raise the damn banner already. HUGE part of Detroit's success in the contending years. Some were saying the 2008 team was one of the most dominant championship teams of the 2000's. Without Osgood, that Cup doesn't happen.

First he needs to try to get into Hall of Fame (ongoing for years now). Then we can talk about jersey retirement lol.

If you haven't noticed it's harder to get number retired than it is to get into hall of fame for the Red Wings

Edited April 5, 2018 by kickazz

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 hours ago, kickazz said:

Why before Z? Zetterberg was an assistant captain since like his 3rd year in the NHL and eventual Captain. He’s top 5 in almost every offensive category for the Red Wings franchise now. And he did it in a much harder era than other forwards did.. That guy is def going up first.

Because Ozzie is a goalie, and we all know Chaps' pants "tent" over goalies!  

[chaps80 1,591]

18 minutes ago, kickazz said:

First he needs to try to get into Hall of Fame (ongoing for years now). Then we can talk about jersey retirement lol.

HHOF shouldn't be a requirement for having your number retired. I know guys like Yzerman and Lidstrom were hall locks, but they're numbers were raised before that was official. Same will happen with Z.

 Goalies also seem to have a harder time getting into the hall than skaters, unless your Hasek or Brodeur. Guys like Joseph and Vernon aren't in yet either. Main knock on Joseph is no Cup, and Vernon I have zero clue what the issue is. The Cups, Awards, and stats are all there. Vernon's number is retired in Calgary already. I know Calgary isn't Detroit, but it's an example.

[chaps80 1,591]

25 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Because Ozzie is a goalie, and we all know Chaps' pants "tent" over goalies!  

Hahaha That's what happens when you grow up playing the position till a bit past your teens and follow pro goalies more than any other players for decades because that part of the game interests you the most. You root for them to succeed, sometimes even regardless of if they play for your fave team or not, like I used to for Vanbiesbrouck for example.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

23 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

HHOF shouldn't be a requirement for having your number retired. I know guys like Yzerman and Lidstrom were hall locks, but they're numbers were raised before that was official. Same will happen with Z.

 Goalies also seem to have a harder time getting into the hall than skaters, unless your Hasek or Brodeur. Guys like Joseph and Vernon aren't in yet either. Main knock on Joseph is no Cup, and Vernon I have zero clue what the issue is. The Cups, Awards, and stats are all there. Vernon's number is retired in Calgary already. I know Calgary isn't Detroit, but it's an example.

Yeah. I've heard this said before so I looked into it once. There's certainly a perception there, and I've  read articles on it from some knowledgeable writers, but mathematically, its not true. Goalies make up approximately 9% of NHL players. There are 271 skaters in the Hall, 35 of whom are goalies. That's 13%. Statistically, you're more likely to get in as a goalie, believe it or not. I think the perception comes more from the fact there are more marginal/borderline skaters that get in, and there some seemingly deserving goalies that aren't. 

[chaps80 1,591]

12 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yeah. I've heard this said before so I looked into it once. There's certainly a perception there, and I've  read articles on it from some knowledgeable writers, but mathematically, its not true. Goalies make up approximately 9% of NHL players. There are 271 skaters in the Hall, 35 of whom are goalies. That's 13%. Statistically, you're more likely to get in as a goalie, believe it or not. I think the perception comes more from the fact there are more marginal/borderline skaters that get in, and there some seemingly deserving goalies that aren't. 

That sounds pretty bang on. There definitely are some skaters that shouldn't be in there.

I was thinking of Grant Fuhr being in the hall. Really, he was only winning Cups and Awards with the powerhouse Oilers of the '80's. And even then, he wasn't the greatest goalie. Gretzky and the rest scored so many goals it didn't matter. Andy Moog could have done that. Ranford did it in 1990 without Gretzky. When Fuhr moved on, his career was nothing special at all. Some argue Osgood's success was a product of the team in front of him. So why does Fuhr get a pass on that? At least Osgood continued playing well after he left Detroit, and again when he returned.

And wasn't Fuhr a woman beating coke head? lol

That whole Oilers team was rumoured to love the blow in the 80's actually. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by chaps80

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

13 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

That sounds pretty bang on. There definitely are some skaters that shouldn't be in there.

I was thinking of Grant Fuhr being in the hall. Really, he was only winning Cups and Awards with the powerhouse Oilers of the '80's. And even then, he wasn't the greatest goalie. Gretzky and the rest scored so many goals it didn't matter. Andy Moog could have done that. Ranford did it in 1990 without Gretzky. When Fuhr moved on, his career was nothing special at all. Some argue Osgood's success was a product of the team in front of him. So why does Fuhr get a pass on that? At least Osgood continued playing well after he left Detroit, and again when he returned.

And wasn't Fuhr a woman beating coke head? lol

That whole Oilers team was rumoured to love the blow in the 80's actually. 

First Bold: 5 Cups.

2nd Bold: It was the 80's. You weren't allowed to come out of the closet back then.

[chaps80 1,591]

26 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

First Bold: 5 Cups.

2nd Bold: It was the 80's. You weren't allowed to come out of the closet back then.

Osgood's 3 Cups, 2 as starter, is no joke either though. Fuhr was only in goal for 3 of the Oilers Cups when they were won. Moog finished the '84 Finals when he was hurt in Game 3, and Ranford played the entire playoffs in '90 when he was injured again. So the two are technically very close in that department.

Yeah, the cocaine explosion. Many people didn't see it as a badly addictive, destructive drug back then. Just a way to stay awake and party. haha

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

42 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

First Bold: 5 Cups.

2nd Bold: It was the 80's. You weren't allowed to come out of the closet back then.

 

6 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Yeah, the cocaine explosion. Many people didn't see it as a badly addictive, destructive drug back then. Just a way to stay awake and party. haha

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, chaps80 said:

HHOF shouldn't be a requirement for having your number retired.

In Detroit's case. So far it is. 

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

Osgood's 3 Cups, 2 as starter, is no joke either though. Fuhr was only in goal for 3 of the Oilers Cups when they were won. Moog finished the '84 Finals when he was hurt in Game 3, and Ranford played the entire playoffs in '90 when he was injured again. So the two are technically very close in that department.

Yeah, the cocaine explosion. Many people didn't see it as a badly addictive, destructive drug back then. Just a way to stay awake and party. haha

Fuhr was a Vezina winner. Osgood wasn't.

 

[kliq 3,755]

5 hours ago, chaps80 said:

HHOF shouldn't be a requirement for having your number retired. I know guys like Yzerman and Lidstrom were hall locks, but they're numbers were raised before that was official. Same will happen with Z.

 Goalies also seem to have a harder time getting into the hall than skaters, unless your Hasek or Brodeur. Guys like Joseph and Vernon aren't in yet either. Main knock on Joseph is no Cup, and Vernon I have zero clue what the issue is. The Cups, Awards, and stats are all there. Vernon's number is retired in Calgary already. I know Calgary isn't Detroit, but it's an example.

For the record, I would like to see Osgood go in, but here are the points against him.

- No major individual awards

- Was not consistently a top goalie in the league year after year, very up and down

- Had a powerhouse in front of him

- Eyeball test showed that he was good, but never appeared to be elite. Nobody would watch Chris Osgood play and say "damn, this guy may be one of the best in the world".

With all that being said, IMO hockey is about performance, and at the end of the day Osgood performed and because of this he should be in the HHOF and he should have his number retired.

[chaps80 1,591]

3 hours ago, kickazz said:

In Detroit's case. So far it is. 

Fuhr was a Vezina winner. Osgood wasn't.

 

Minor detail. Jim Carey won one too.

[chaps80 1,591]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

For the record, I would like to see Osgood go in, but here are the points against him.

- No major individual awards

- Was not consistently a top goalie in the league year after year, very up and down

- Had a powerhouse in front of him

- Eyeball test showed that he was good, but never appeared to be elite. Nobody would watch Chris Osgood play and say "damn, this guy may be one of the best in the world".

With all that being said, IMO hockey is about performance, and at the end of the day Osgood performed and because of this he should be in the HHOF and he should have his number retired.

No, he wasn't a top goalie in the league, but his stats are still pretty consistent. The worst season he had that he played at least 30 games in was ironically the one where he had his best playoff performance of his career, 2008-2009. He didn't have a losing record once in his career until 2009-2010, and by then he was pretty well done. He did go from starter in STL to backup for two seasons when he returned to Detroit though, behind Legace, then Hasek. Then split time with Hasek the year after. So I guess he had some ups and downs.

But I was originally talking about Detroit retiring his number for what he did there, it's absolutely deserved. The HHOF has it's own standards. He should get in, but he may not.

[kickazz 5,459]

5 hours ago, chaps80 said:

Minor detail. Jim Carey won one too.

What’s your point? 

[LeftWinger 4,959]

13 hours ago, kickazz said:

When Z's jersey gets retired, the first person we laugh at is Jonas. Then Leftwinger since he started that propoganda fake news about Swedes wanting to play for their national team over the Red Wings or whatever that rubbish was. For years until they all declined the national team invites in favor of the Red Wings and he finally shut up.

I was far from The first person to say that!

Plus, if you go over this thread, I said, multiple times ALL need to be retired. Never once said Z should not have his jersey retired!

Save your laughter for when Hudler leads our team or when playoff Franzen shows back up! Oh wait, they never happened! When you're right about something that everyone else was wrong about, then you can laugh.

[kickazz 5,459]

7 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I was far from The first person to say that!

Plus, if you go over this thread, I said, multiple times ALL need to be retired. Never once said Z should not have his jersey retired!

Save your laughter for when Hudler leads our team or when playoff Franzen shows back up! Oh wait, they never happened! When you're right about something that everyone else was wrong about, then you can laugh.

Whoever those people that thought Franzen would come back and Hudler would lead the team were being hopeful or optimistic.

You were spreading fake news about the Swedes. Specifically Z.

This ain’t a thread about Hudler or Franzen # retirement. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,959]

29 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Whoever those people that thought Franzen would come back and Hudler would lead the team were being hopeful or optimistic.

You were spreading fake news about the Swedes. Specifically Z.

This ain’t a thread about Hudler or Franzen # retirement. 

It was a response to you saying that you should laugh when you're right. Just like I used to laugh back then when those two ideas were always brought up, before everyone realized it wasn't going to happen. 

Point being you can laugh at me when you're right and I'm wrong, but I never said 40 wouldn't go up, so don't include me in your laughs like I was always against it happening.

More times than not, players from other countries are more loyal to their national team, I applauded Z and E for what they did. Doesn't mran it doesn't happen with a ton of other players. So its not fake news.

[krsmith17 7,191]

49 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I was far from The first person to say that!

Plus, if you go over this thread, I said, multiple times ALL need to be retired. Never once said Z should not have his jersey retired!

Save your laughter for when Hudler leads our team or when playoff Franzen shows back up! Oh wait, they never happened! When you're right about something that everyone else was wrong about, then you can laugh.

I don't recall many fans ever being that big on Hudler, other than a select few (eva). It's a bit of a stretch to say you're the only one that called Huds never leading this team... As for Franzen, there's not a question in my mind that if he remained healthy, he would have remained a 50-60 point player for at least another couple seasons. He'd likely still be a somewhat productive player at the age of 38. You weren't "right" about Franzen, unless you're saying you knew he would suffer multiple concussions... You were "right" about Hudler, like countless other Red Wings fans. You happened to be "right" about Franzen due to unfortunate (to most...) circumstances. Not really much to brag about. Though, anyone that brags about being right on the internet irk the s*** out of me anyway... But whatever...

[kliq 3,755]

Saying that you were right about Hudler not leading our team, would be like me saying now that Nyquist will never win a Hart and DD will never win a Norris, not exactly a "bold prediction".

Agreed @krsmith17 had Franzen never suffered all those concussions, I have no doubt that he would still be a great player.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Wrong and Wrong. I argued with tons of people about Hudler becoming a star here, and Franzen had started regressing before his concussion. But none of this is my point. My point was don't include me in the "I told you so" unless I was of opposition. I never said 40 shouldn't and wouldn't go up, so there's nothing for azz to be right about when it comes to me.

[chaps80 1,591]

3 hours ago, kickazz said:

What’s your point? 

That because Fuhr won a Vezina and Osgood didn’t, it somehow makes him more hall worthy. It’s one award, won in a single season. Some long forgotten goalies have won one. 

Fuhr finished his career with 403 wins and a 3.38 GAA. Had 92 playoff wins with a 2.92 GAA. Osgood numbers are much better, and the win totals are very close.

Other than the Vezina and a couple more All Star selections, there isn’t much that separates them. Fuhr had more “down” seasons than Osgood did, especially in his Toronto and Buffalo days. I think Fuhr is regarded so highly because of his connection to the Oilers dynasty and Gretzky, Messier, etc. As I said above, Andy Moog and Bill Ranford won Cups with them too. 

Fuhr and Osgood are two very similar goalies career wise. Both won multiple Cups on powerhouse teams, Fuhr has more wins, Osgood has better numbers. But Fuhr has his number retired, is in the HHOF and considered one of the greatest 100 NHLers, while Osgood can’t even get his number retired. 

Rogie Vachon is in the Hall though, so I guess there’s hope for anyone. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

35 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Wrong and Wrong. I argued with tons of people about Hudler becoming a star here, and Franzen had started regressing before his concussion. But none of this is my point. My point was don't include me in the "I told you so" unless I was of opposition. I never said 40 shouldn't and wouldn't go up, so there's nothing for azz to be right about when it comes to me.

Like who? I don't recall anyone (other than eva) making such claims. Granted, you've been around here longer than me, so maybe... But like kliq said, saying that Hudler wouldn't be a star, wasn't some shot in the dark, bold prediction...

As for Franzen, you're blinded by your inexplicable hatred for him. He did not regress at all prior to his multiple concussions. He suffered his first concussion way back in 2013, and then several others at varying magnitudes in the following couple seasons, before finally calling it a career in 2015. Even after all of those concussions, he was still a very productive player. Was he consistent from game to game? No. Not many players in the NHL are. Was he consistent from season to season? Absolutely.

2007-08 - 43.4 point pace

2008-09 - 68.1 point pace

2009-10 - 63.8 point pace

2010-11 - 59.3 point pace

2011-12 - 59.6 point pace

2012-13 - 62.0 point pace

2013-14 - 62.2 point pace

2014-15 - 54.7 point pace

I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this though. You're usually pretty good at admitting fault, but this is one thing you'll never admit to being wrong about... Oh well...

[LeftWinger 4,959]

I admit when I'm wrong. Was never wrong about Franzen. Hossa was the clear choice and Franzen never lived up to his contract, even before he was injured all the time. But that is an OLD subject. Let's move on back to topic. My only point was don't include me in the laughs because I was never against or wrong about 40 going up, laugh at me when I am clearly wrong and you (not you personally) are clearly right.  I will admit it and laugh along with you...just like with Mrazek. (I'm still crossing my fingers on DD though!)

Again, as my opinion has been and still remains, ALL FOUR should be up in the rafters, but its not up to us as fans, and that is too bad! I think that for his contributions to the Dynasty and the continued success of this team #96 should get serious consideration. I'd even consider #33 and #18, but now I am pushing it. But like I said, the #'s retirement is a fan thing and an appreciation of what that player did for the franchise and the fans. I understand that Holland (or whoever decides) has a much different measuring stick and unfortunately its the fans that are losing out.

I think if we retired all four of these, then also 8, 18, 33, 14, 96 (not all at once) it really wouldn't water down the high standards that the organization holds, those guys are really the main cogs that were around for our entire Dynasty and even though there were a few others, those 5 is where I'd stop it, because it would be a huge can of worms I we tried to honor all of them....but I know it won't happen, so don't think I seriously feel it will.

Of course I also have a good argument for Red Kelly and Marcel Pronovost....but now we're talking strict personal opinions!