Rumors Thread

[Dabura 12,207]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Trade Green for a 1st, trade Nyquist for a 1st. Trade Mantha, Tatar and those two firsts for Karlsson. Keep our 1st, draft Dahlin.

Nyquist wouldn't get us a 1st. If Green gets us a 1st, it'll probably be in the 25-31 range. I'm pretty sure Tatar has no trade value at the moment and I reckon Mantha's trade value isn't as high as we'd like to think it is.

IMO, we have no shot at acquiring Karlsson via trade, for a number of reasons. Holland('s successor) will wait to see if he hits the open market in 2019...and Karlsson will sign elsewhere, and we'll learn that he never even spoke to Holland('s successor).

I'm ok with not landing Karlsson. He's a generational talent and he's exactly the kind of player we need, but his $100M contract could be a death trap. Every year, a team that isn't paying Erik Karlsson $12M a year somehow finds a way to win the Stanley Cup.

The Wings have to be patient and smart. Keep drafting solid players in the 1st round, hope we hit the jackpot and get a Dahlin or a Svechnikov or a couple of Adam Boqvists within the next several drafts. Don't go chasing waterfalls. Target the not-Karlssons of the 2019 UFA class. Make a savvy, low-risk trade or two or three or four or five.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Dabura

[kickazz 5,459]

7 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Nyquist wouldn't get us a 1st. If Green gets us a 1st, it'll probably be in the 25-31 range. I'm pretty sure Tatar has no trade value at the moment and I reckon Mantha's trade value isn't as high as we'd like to think it is.

IMO, we have no shot at acquiring Karlsson via trade, for a number of reasons. Holland will wait to see if he hits the open market in 2019...and Karlsson will sign elsewhere, and we'll learn that he never even spoke to Holland.

I'm ok with not landing Karlsson. He's a generational talent and he's exactly the kind of player we need, but his $100M contract could be a death trap. Every year, a team that isn't paying Erik Karlsson $12M a year somehow finds a way to win the Stanley Cup.

The Wings have to be patient and smart. Keep drafting solid players in the 1st round, hope we hit the jackpot and get a Dahlin or a Svechnikov or a couple of Adam Boqvists in one of the next several drafts. Don't go chasing waterfalls. Target the not-Karlssons of the 2019 UFA class.

Idk man, a once in a lifetime defenseman is finally available and ya'll being all question-ey about going for him. Ya'll confusing me and s***. All I hear about on this website is how Holland doesn't make trades blah blah blah and when one could finally be available; a HUGE upgrade, people turning the cheek.

I agree we won't get him. Probably because Holland will think it's too expensive and the other reasons you listed.

Anyways, I bet we really don't get a top 5 pick in 2018 or 19 cause we try-hards that end up somewhere outside of that. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by kickazz

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

Idk man, a once in a lifetime defenseman is finally available and ya'll being all question-ey about about going for him. Ya'll confusing me and s***. 

I bet we really don't get a top 5 pick in 2018 or 19 cause we try hards that end up somewhere outside of that. 

I mean, don't get me wrong, I want Karlsson wearing the Winged Wheel. I just don't see it happening...and I'm rationalizing that as a good thing.

After Suter and Stamkos, I've sworn to never get my hopes up about a marquee UFA ever again. NEVER AGAIN!

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

 

33 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Either way, Giving up Nyquist and Mantha for possibly the best defenseman in the league is not as bad as some may think. Mantha isn't Brett Hull and Nyquist isn't Paul Kariya. But Karlsson is following in Lidstrom's footsteps. You simply don't pas on that opportunity just because Karlsson "might" not re-sign here. If you put the tools in place for a guy like him, and you're good at your job as a manager, you can definitely keep the guy. 

We have Larkin, AA, Tatar, Rasmussen, Svechnikov. So many forwards with potential coming through. Giving up 2 of them for a generational talent, especially one that is a defenseman which are near impossible to get a hold of these days... 

I'm fully certain Ken Holland will pick up his phone and make a call to Ottawa as will the other GM's. 

You've taken away the 2 first rounders from the trade you were talking about. And it would cost more than Mantha and Nyquist. Think of Vanek in 2014. He cost the Islanders Moulson, a 1st and a 2nd - and he had only a half year left on his contract. So Karlsson would be quite a bit more than that. And then he wanted to test free agency after all and didn't sign with them.

I'm sure that Holland will call as well (as he should), but I don't think it'd be worth while to trade so much for which will essentially be a year of him when we're not a contender and negotiating rights. Especially with his comment about getting what he's worth, I think he'll check out free agency (unless he has loyalty to Ottawa and is just trying to get the most from them).

Edited December 11, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kickazz 5,459]

23 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

 

You've taken away the 2 first rounders from the trade you were talking about. And it would cost more than Mantha and Nyquist. Think of Vanek in 2014. He cost the Islanders Moulson, a 1st and a 2nd - and he had only a half year left on his contract. So Karlsson would be quite a bit more than that. And then he wanted to test free agency after all and didn't sign with them.

I'm sure that Holland will call as well (as he should), but I don't think it'd be worth while to trade so much for which will essentially be a year of him when we're not a contender and negotiating rights. Especially with his comment about getting what he's worth, I think he'll check out free agency (unless he has loyalty to Ottawa and is just trying to get the most from them).

No I still include the 1st rounds because statistically speaking our 1st rounders have a higher probability of being outside of top 5 anyway. Cuz we’re try-hards. I doubt we get Dahlin or Svech well probably end up getting another guy that’s going to spend a few years in juniors and then in GR. Just going by the way we’ve trended. 

By the time Karlsson is up for his contract, Larkin and AA should be at their peaks. If they’re what we hope them to be then Karlsson has a good reason to stay right? A dynamic offense that he would defend for. And if he’s producing well then of course we offer him an arm and a leg. We certainly would have the money to do so by 2019.

Imagine if by some miracle we do trade successfully for Karlsson. Guess whose looking at us all of a sudden. Mr. John Tavares. It’s certainly going to peak his interest.

Karlsson would be a stepping stone to a quick rebuild. We’d be giving up a ton, we may have to drop and clear some space (not re-sign Mrazek of Green for instance). Trade Helm etc etc

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

By the time Karlsson is up for his contract, Larkin and AA should be at their peaks. If they’re what we hope them to be then Karlsson has a good reason to stay right? A dynamic offense that he would defend for. And if he’s producing well then of course we offer him an arm and a leg. We certainly would have the money to do so by 2019.

Imagine if by some miracle we do trade successfully for Karlsson. Guess whose looking at us all of a sudden. Mr. John Tavares. It’s certainly going to peak his interest.

Karlsson would be a stepping stone to a quick rebuild. We’d be giving up a ton, we may have to drop and clear some space (not re-sign Mrazek of Green for instance). Trade Helm etc etc

I think we're in line for a pretty good player this year. Maybe next year too.

And, yes, Karlsson would be a shortcut to a rebuild, but I'm not sure Larkin, AA, Rasmussen, Svech (our current one) Cholo and Karlsson would be enough of a core to win. And I'm sure Karlsson could see greener pastures elsewhere when considering whether to stay. With Tavares, sure, that be a nice team, but that's a few too many hypotheticals ahead for me.

Anyway, for my last pitch to you. I'll counter what you imagine: If you lost Mantha, Nyquist, and 2 1st rounders, and then Karlsson went elsewhere in free agency, I think that'd go on the list of worst trades ever. And think of how much that would put the rebuild behind. But I guess you'd be a bolder GM than I. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

17 hours ago, kickazz said:

You know how everyone thinks Zetterberg is the Swedish Don? Well if there’s any point we want this to actually be true, it’s now. Erik Karlsson and Henrik Zetterberg are very close friends.

Karlsson is generational talent. He might go down as one of the best offensive defenseman in league history if he continues to play like he has in his career. You wouldn’t trade Larkin or Mantha for him? Shoot I would trade all of Larkin, Mantha and Nyquist for that guy. 

Nyquist and Tatar aren’t much more than secondary scorers and the jury is still out on Larkin and Mantha. They could be elite, they could end up like Nyquist and Tatar. But Karlsson is already established himself as the best of the best and he will be for at least another 10 years. This guy wouldn’t jist fix our defense, he would fix our offense too. 

Karlsson is younger than Nyquist and the same as Tatar’s age btw.

 

No. Larkin and Mantha are part of the rebuild. Karlsson wouldn't be. He'll be 28 come playoff time. By the time the Wings are legit contenders again, Larkin or Mantha will be hitting their prime in Ottawa and Karlsson would be on the wrong side of 30 and trending down significantly. If this team was already stacked with talent and was on the way up, then yes, I make that deal. I just don't think he makes sense for this team at this time. Plus Karlsson is going to be WAY to expensive. He will get max contract for max years for sure. I can totally see him hitting 35 and still making over 10 mil a year.

BTW, there may be a flaw in my trade scenario. Can Karlsson be traded after the season is over but before the draft? If he is traded this summer, it would be kind of hard to include a 2017 1st when the draft will have already happened.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[kickazz 5,459]

18 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

No. Larkin and Mantha are part of the rebuild. Karlsson wouldn't be. He'll be 28 come playoff time. By the time the Wings are legit contenders again, Larkin or Mantha will be hitting their prime in Ottawa and Karlsson would be on the wrong side of 30 and trending down significantly. If this team was already stacked with talent and was on the way up, then yes, I make that deal. I just don't think he makes sense for this team at this time. Plus Karlsson is going to be WAY to expensive. He will get max contract for max years for sure. I can totally see him hitting 35 and still making over 10 mil a year.

BTW, there may be a flaw in my trade scenario. Can Karlsson be traded after the season is over but before the draft? If he is traded this summer, it would be kind of hard to include a 2017 1st when the draft will have already happened.

Defenders prime last wayyyy longer than offensive players. 

Also getting Karlsson and possibly Tavares effectively ends the rebuild. There’s no hard fast rule that we have to go through some rebuild. Wouldn’t you rather get an elite defenseman and an elite center NOW and actually win the Stanley cup? Look at what we did between the 90s era and the Euro Twins era. Yzerman, Federov and Shanahan checked out. Then we signed Osgood, signed Rafalski. The mid young players were Datsyuk and Zet. No rebuild took place, just 2-3 players that were the core and the right signings.

Btw my scenario is not impossible. Getting Tavares and Karlsson is very possible. It’s just depends on whether Holland wants to do all the work for it.

A core of Tavares, Zetterberg, Larkin, Nielsen, Tatar, AA, Karlsson, Howard can definitely win you a cup

Sign Karlsson, use him and Nielsen as an incentive to bring in Tavares. Rid contract like Green, Mrazek, Helm, Nyquist. 

You have to be a bold GM to pull this off. You know who can do it? Jim Harbaugh. If only he was a hockey coach.

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I think we're in line for a pretty good player this year. Maybe next year too.

And, yes, Karlsson would be a shortcut to a rebuild, but I'm not sure Larkin, AA, Rasmussen, Svech (our current one) Cholo and Karlsson would be enough of a core to win. And I'm sure Karlsson could see greener pastures elsewhere when considering whether to stay. With Tavares, sure, that be a nice team, but that's a few too many hypotheticals ahead for me.

Anyway, for my last pitch to you. I'll counter what you imagine: If you lost Mantha, Nyquist, and 2 1st rounders, and then Karlsson went elsewhere in free agency, I think that'd go on the list of worst trades ever. And think of how much that would put the rebuild behind. But I guess you'd be a bolded GM than I. 

I'm just saying that this may be an alternate strategy since the current trajectory we're on isn't all THAT promising. I know we're all hoping that it is but we honestly don't actually know. 

 I mean think about it, you mentioned hypotheticals for Karlsson + Tavares to work out. I could say the same to you about whoever we get in 2018 and 2019 draft. Hell even the idea of Mantha panning out is hypothetical. At least with Karlsson and Tavares we have a product that's established and proven. 

Maybe I'm more optimistic about being able to keep Karlsson for an extension. But I am a firm believer in attracting players by using other players. For instance, even if my scenario worked out and Tavares came, that itself would be a reason for Karlsson to sign an extension. The possibilities of getting one big name just opens so many doors up for a franchise. Snowball effect. 

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[Richdg 267]

Is Karlsson good? Yes. Is he worth our best young players? No. That would be just moving chairs around on the deck. Now if we can get him for this years 1st, AA, Tatar, and another, I would do that deal. if they are talking Mantha and/or Larkin I pass.

If I was going to make a move for a big time Dman, I go after OEL anyway. He is younger and a better all around player. Blocks more shots, gives more hits, and has the same type of offensive numbers. Fewer injuries.

I still go all in on John Carlson as a UFA this summer. Another very good Dman and only costs us money. Him and either Cole or De Haan makes our BL much better overall. Of course that requires a GM willing to make moves......

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, Dabura said:

Nyquist wouldn't get us a 1st. If Green gets us a 1st, it'll probably be in the 25-31 range. I'm pretty sure Tatar has no trade value at the moment and I reckon Mantha's trade value isn't as high as we'd like to think it is.

IMO, we have no shot at acquiring Karlsson via trade, for a number of reasons. Holland('s successor) will wait to see if he hits the open market in 2019...and Karlsson will sign elsewhere, and we'll learn that he never even spoke to Holland('s successor).

I'm ok with not landing Karlsson. He's a generational talent and he's exactly the kind of player we need, but his $100M contract could be a death trap. Every year, a team that isn't paying Erik Karlsson $12M a year somehow finds a way to win the Stanley Cup.

The Wings have to be patient and smart. Keep drafting solid players in the 1st round, hope we hit the jackpot and get a Dahlin or a Svechnikov or a couple of Adam Boqvists within the next several drafts. Don't go chasing waterfalls. Target the not-Karlssons of the 2019 UFA class. Make a savvy, low-risk trade or two or three or four or five.

Stick to the Detroit River and the Great Lakes that we're used to.....

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Defenders prime last wayyyy longer than offensive players. 

Also getting Karlsson and possibly Tavares effectively ends the rebuild. There’s no hard fast rule that we have to go through some rebuild. Wouldn’t you rather get an elite defenseman and an elite center NOW and actually win the Stanley cup? Look at what we did between the 90s era and the Euro Twins era. Yzerman, Federov and Shanahan checked out. Then we signed Osgood, signed Rafalski. The mid young players were Datsyuk and Zet. No rebuild took place, just 2-3 players that were the core and the right signings.

Btw my scenario is not impossible. Getting Tavares and Karlsson is very possible. It’s just depends on whether Holland wants to do all the work for it.

A core of Tavares, Zetterberg, Larkin, Nielsen, Tatar, AA, Karlsson, Howard can definitely win you a cup

Sign Karlsson, use him and Nielsen as an incentive to bring in Tavares. Rid contract like Green, Mrazek, Helm, Nyquist. 

You have to be a bold GM to pull this off. You know who can do it? Jim Harbaugh. If only he was a hockey coach.

If you're scenario turned out that way, I would totally be on board. It's not bad or wrong, it's just too risky for my blood. It could blow up. What if Karlsson doesn't re-sign? What if we don't get Tavares? Then we've given up the pieces we need for a rebuild and no Karlsson or JT. Have to start over. I tend to play it safe.

[kickazz 5,459]

4 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

If you're scenario turned out that way, I would totally be on board. It's not bad or wrong, it's just too risky for my blood. It could blow up. What if Karlsson doesn't re-sign? What if we don't get Tavares? Then we've given up the pieces we need for a rebuild and no Karlsson or JT. Have to start over. I tend to play it safe.

I know.

It's slightly riskier, but drafting ain't a guarantee either. 

[LeftWinger 4,962]

Nah, can' give away both our core youngsters...

Harbough can't even beat his in state rival nor his biggest rival, let alone make a move like that. Overrated.

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, Richdg said:

Is Karlsson good? Yes. Is he worth our best young players? No. That would be just moving chairs around on the deck. Now if we can get him for this years 1st, AA, Tatar, and another, I would do that deal. if they are talking Mantha and/or Larkin I pass.

If I was going to make a move for a big time Dman, I go after OEL anyway. He is younger and a better all around player. Blocks more shots, gives more hits, and has the same type of offensive numbers. Fewer injuries.

I still go all in on John Carlson as a UFA this summer. Another very good Dman and only costs us money. Him and either Cole or De Haan makes our BL much better overall. Of course that requires a GM willing to make moves......

With the big three UFA D next summer, I dont think we should waste our cap space on John Carlson. I get that chances are we dont sign any of them (but same can be said for every team), but With Carlson being the #1 D-man this off-season, he is going to be way overpaid. I dont mind overpaying for an elite D-man, I dont want any more "very good players" at high cap hits. Carlson plays on the caps, he comes here and he is not going to be the same player.

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, Richdg said:

Is Karlsson good? Yes. Is he worth our best young players? No. That would be just moving chairs around on the deck. Now if we can get him for this years 1st, AA, Tatar, and another, I would do that deal. if they are talking Mantha and/or Larkin I pass.

If I was going to make a move for a big time Dman, I go after OEL anyway. He is younger and a better all around player. Blocks more shots, gives more hits, and has the same type of offensive numbers. Fewer injuries.

I still go all in on John Carlson as a UFA this summer. Another very good Dman and only costs us money. Him and either Cole or De Haan makes our BL much better overall. Of course that requires a GM willing to make moves......

I think its crazy that people literally wouldn't trade a young player who hasn't proven much yet for arguably the best defenseman in the league. My god the guy players like 30 minutes a game, is a possession monster, scores 80 points a year and is a two time Norris winner and he's only 27. He's a Captain too if that adds any cherry on top. 

We seriously overrate the hell out of our young players. It's almost psychotic.

Anyways, he's probably going to stay in Ottawa. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, Richdg said:

Is Karlsson good? Yes. Is he worth our best young players? No. That would be just moving chairs around on the deck. Now if we can get him for this years 1st, AA, Tatar, and another, I would do that deal. if they are talking Mantha and/or Larkin I pass.

If I was going to make a move for a big time Dman, I go after OEL anyway. He is younger and a better all around player. Blocks more shots, gives more hits, and has the same type of offensive numbers. Fewer injuries.

I still go all in on John Carlson as a UFA this summer. Another very good Dman and only costs us money. Him and either Cole or De Haan makes our BL much better overall. Of course that requires a GM willing to make moves......

Same type of offensive numbers? You must not be reading the numbers right. Karlsson scores 70-80 points a year. The highest OEL has scored is 55 and that was 3 years ago.  

Blocks more shots? OEL blocked 85 shots last year. Want to know how many Karlsson blocked? 201. 

Lol. You're wayyyyy off and wrong. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

4 minutes ago, kickazz said:

I think its crazy that people literally wouldn't trade a young player who hasn't proven much yet for arguably the best defenseman in the league. My god the guy players like 30 minutes a game, is a possession monster, scores 80 points a year and is a two time Norris winner and he's only 27. He's a Captain too if that adds any cherry on top. 

We seriously overrate the hell out of our young players. It's almost psychotic. 

I think the thing you keep missing is the factor that he's not on a long term contract.

It's not trading a young player for 'arguably the best defenseman,' it's a year of him and basically negotiating rights. And I think you're overvaluing that.

[kickazz 5,459]

12 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I think the thing you keep missing is the factor that he's not on a long term contract.

It's not trading a young player for 'arguably the best defenseman,' it's a year of him and basically negotiating rights. And I think you're overvaluing that.

One year of Karlsson and an opportunity to negotiate an extension > a young player that's most likely overrated by Wings fans. 

It's not like Holland would just let him walk to free agency come 2019. If we have the money (which we could), you offer him a max deal that he wouldn't even care to go to free agency. Erik Karlsson is a player you lock in for a decade if you can and you start having those talks early on in the contract year. He has nothing to prove. 

And I've already told you that having Karlsson on this team instantly makes us more attractive for high end UFAs than having a Mantha and a Nyquist and two kids buried in juniors for "development".

Big picture things. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

With the big three UFA D next summer, I dont think we should waste our cap space on John Carlson. I get that chances are we dont sign any of them (but same can be said for every team), but With Carlson being the #1 D-man this off-season, he is going to be way overpaid. I dont mind overpaying for an elite D-man, I dont want any more "very good players" at high cap hits. Carlson plays on the caps, he comes here and he is not going to be the same player.

Carlson=Niskanen 2.0

Holland will do his due diligence by inquiring and maybe even making an offer, but in the end someone overpays for Carlson expecting him to be their 1D. Then if he ends up on a weaker team, he looks more like a 3D.

Pass.

[kliq 3,755]

Karlsson on an extension, I trade Larkin or Mantha for him in a heart beat. No extension, I'm very hesitant.

If we traded say Larkin for Karlsson, then Karlsson just leaves, we look like idiots. 

[kickazz 5,459]

3 minutes ago, kliq said:

Karlsson on an extension, I trade Larkin or Mantha for him in a heart beat. No extension, I'm very hesitant.

If we traded say Larkin for Karlsson, then Karlsson just leaves, we look like idiots. 

I just don't think it's that easy. I said it earlier, when you get a guy like Karlsson in a trade you actively sign him to an extension with a crap ton of money RIGHT AWAY. You basically pull a McDavid and throw the bank at him. 

Karlsson "I want to explore the market"

Holland "We'll give you 100 million dollars and match any offer with additional benefits if you sign today"

Karlsson "Deal"

 

^ I bet that actually ends up happening except it happens with Ottawa instead. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

I just don't think it's that easy. I said it earlier, when you get a guy like Karlsson in a trade you actively sign him to an extension with a crap ton of money RIGHT AWAY. You basically pull a McDavid and throw the bank at him. 

If Ottawa allows us to talk contract with the agent before the trade, maybe I change my opinion. If not, I'm worried. 

I see your point though, Karlsson is a game changer, Larkin/Mantha are not.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 minutes ago, kliq said:

Karlsson on an extension, I trade Larkin or Mantha for him in a heart beat. No extension, I'm very hesitant.

If we traded say Larkin for Karlsson, then Karlsson just leaves, we look like idiots. 

Too late.

[kickazz 5,459]

16 minutes ago, kliq said:

If Ottawa allows us to talk contract with the agent before the trade, maybe I change my opinion. If not, I'm worried. 

I see your point though, Karlsson is a game changer, Larkin/Mantha are not.

Yes exactly.

Karlsson carries Ottawa. The times he hasn't played and they won, Craig Andersson was a beast. 

If he came to Detroit, I guarantee you we would jump many spots in the standings. 

Man there was one game I think there Ottawa had like 50 something shots on goal and 20 something of those attempts came from Karlsson's stick. The guy is a possession monster. 

Someone made this chart with Senators 5 on 5 numbers. 

If the MVP award was given based off of how impactful a player is to his team rather than how many points a player scores, then Karlsson would win it every year and Carey Price would come in 2nd place (except Price sucks this year so it doesn't apply).  

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz