Leafs vs Wings

[kliq 3,763]

I have a question that I want people to really think about.

The narrative for the Leafs right now is that they are an up and coming team who have been built the right way, and are on the verge to take the NHL by storm

The narrative for the Wings is an aging team with some good young players, no elite talent, who refuse to admit they need to re-build.

Here is my question; If you were to swap out Z for Matthews, so in this hypothetical sceneio we have Matthews, they have Z, would we be the up and coming team about to make noise with Matthews/Larkin/Mantha/AA leading the charge, or would TO still have a better future then us.

They are obviously in a better cap situation then us there is no denying that, but I want to know if people think that their bright future is truly because of the way the franchise has been built, or if it really is as simply as they got Matthews.

This isn't a thread designed to praise or criticize Holland, its asking the question of how much impact does that one elite and possibly generational player make.

Thoughts? 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

20 hours ago, kliq said:

I have a question that I want people to really think about.

The narrative for the Leafs right now is that they are an up and coming team who have been built the right way, and are on the verge to take the NHL by storm

The narrative for the Wings is an aging team with some good young players, no elite talent, who refuse to admit they need to re-build.

Here is my question; If you were to swap out Z for Matthews, so in this hypothetical sceneio we have Matthews, they have Z, would we be the up and coming team about to make noise with Matthews/Larkin/Mantha/AA leading the charge, or would TO still have a better future then us.

They are obviously in a better cap situation then us there is no denying that, but I want to know if people think that their bright future is truly because of the way the franchise has been built, or if it really is as simply as they got Matthews.

This isn't a thread designed to praise or criticize Holland, its asking the question of how much impact does that one elite and possibly generational player make.

Thoughts? 

I don't think its as much a roster change as it is a management and coaching change in Toronto. The Leafs were bad for years before the finally cleaned house from President all the way down to the roster. Lamoriello, Shanahan, Babcock were all brought in for a complete overhaul. Then they got rid of guys like Phaneuf and Kessel and kept younger guys like Bozak, Kadri, and JVR to start a rebuild. It helps to draft a big ticket like Matthews, but they've also drafted and developed guys like Marner, Nylander, and Liljegren. Those are all the reasons why the Leafs are seen as rebuilding and "up and comers".

The Wings on the other hand have done none of those things. Devellano and Holland are still running the ship. Yes, there was a coaching change, but that was "in house". All the veterans are still here. They haven't traded away guys like Zetterberg, Kronwall, Ericsson, or Helm for picks and prospects. Datsyuk would've never been traded either as long as he wanted to be here. And even though there are some younger guys being brought into the lineup, none of them are at the level of a Matthews. They haven't been bad for years and stockpiled picks and prospects. Those are the reasons why the Wings aren't seen as "rebuilding" but instead are seen as a team on the way down.

In regards to whether or not switching Z for Matthews would change that, I would say no. The Leafs have done all of the other things to be seen as a team on the rise. Even with Matthews, the Wings haven't done anything else to be seen any differently than they already are.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[kliq 3,763]

Personally I think that if we did switch the two players, and two other things aligned, then we would be in just as good of a position. For the record, I am not talking about the perception of the fans, I am talking about the quality on the ice. 

Those two things I am referring to are a coaching change, and the dumping of a select few contracts to give us cap flexibility.

As far as young forwards go, I think that Matthews/Larkin/Rasmussen/Mantha/AA/Svechnikov are just as good as the Leafs young crop of forwards. I give TO the advantage on D simply because of Reily (we have nobody at that level), and I give us the advantage in goal as I think a healthy Howard is better then Andersson.

Now obviously we dont have Matthews so none of this really matter, but I heard a group of people talking about this the other day and I was curious what others here on the board thought. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

The forwards aren't that different outside of their one stud... I think Larkin is better than anyone on that team (besides Matthews). Mantha and Athanasiou are close to Nylander and Marner. Kadri and Van Riemsdyk are much better than Nyquist and Tatar. Hyman and Komarov are similar to Abdelkader and Helm. Marleau is similar to Zetterberg. Bozak to Nielsen. Brown to Frk. Martin to Glendening. And Moore to Booth.

The defense isn't really close. We have Green, but he likely won't be a Wing much longer. They have two guys in Rielly and Gardiner that we don't have anything close to.

To answer the question though, if we added a Matthews to this team, I think we would be a playoff contender, and potentially a Cup contender within a few years, IF we could get something figured out with the defense.

The Leafs were doing a good job rebuilding before they landed Matthews, but he's clearly what put them over the top and into future contenders. If we could get lucky and land a stud like Dahlin in next year's draft, I think we could have the same quick turnaround. The pieces are there, we just need that one (or two) elite player(s).

[kliq 3,763]

11 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Nylander is a stud.  I would take him over each of our forwards.

Even the "elite" Dylan Larkin? 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

27 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

The forwards aren't that different outside of their one stud... I think Larkin is better than anyone on that team (besides Matthews). Mantha and Athanasiou are close to Nylander and Marner. Kadri and Van Riemsdyk are much better than Nyquist and Tatar. Hyman and Komarov are similar to Abdelkader and Helm. Marleau is similar to Zetterberg. Bozak to Nielsen. Brown to Frk. Martin to Glendening. And Moore to Booth.

The defense isn't really close. We have Green, but he likely won't be a Wing much longer. They have two guys in Rielly and Gardiner that we don't have anything close to.

To answer the question though, if we added a Matthews to this team, I think we would be a playoff contender, and potentially a Cup contender within a few years, IF we could get something figured out with the defense.

The Leafs were doing a good job rebuilding before they landed Matthews, but he's clearly what put them over the top and into future contenders. If we could get lucky and land a stud like Dahlin in next year's draft, I think we could have the same quick turnaround. The pieces are there, we just need that one (or two) elite player(s).

I agree, but do you think it will be perceived that way if there are no coaching or management changes? I am not saying the Wings need a top to bottom overhaul (although some are). I just think people see this team steadily declining over the past 5-7 years and see the same basic roster, GM, etc and don't see a team on the rise. That could change with a new coach, and some veteran contracts being moved (which will probably require a new GM). Bring in a new influx of kids, start heading in the opposite direction points wise, and I think people's perception of this team will change. Adding a guy like Dahlin will help. But I do not know one fan of any other team who consider the Wings an "up and coming" team, but there are many who believe that about Toronto. And I don't think subtracting Z and adding Matthews would change that perception. It would take a lot more.

17 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Nylander is a stud.  I would take him over each of our forwards.

Would you take him over Toews? I would.

[kliq 3,763]

1 minute ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I agree, but do you think it will be perceived that way if there are no coaching or management changes? I am not saying the Wings need a top to bottom overhaul (although some are). I just think people see this team steadily declining over the past 5-7 years and see the same basic roster, GM, etc and don't see a team on the rise. That could change with a new coach, and some veteran contracts being moved (which will probably require a new GM). Bring in a new influx of kids, start heading in the opposite direction points wise, and I think people's perception of this team will change. Adding a guy like Dahlin will help. But I do not know one fan of any other team who consider the Wings an "up and coming" team, but there are many who believe that about Toronto. And I don't think subtracting Z and adding Matthews would change that perception. It would take a lot more.

100% agree with the perception part, but perception and reality of are two different things. I was talking more the reality. 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I agree, but do you think it will be perceived that way if there are no coaching or management changes? I am not saying the Wings need a top to bottom overhaul (although some are). I just think people see this team steadily declining over the past 5-7 years and see the same basic roster, GM, etc and don't see a team on the rise. That could change with a new coach, and some veteran contracts being moved (which will probably require a new GM). Bring in a new influx of kids, start heading in the opposite direction points wise, and I think people's perception of this team will change. Adding a guy like Dahlin will help. But I do not know one fan of any other team who consider the Wings an "up and coming" team, but there are many who believe that about Toronto. And I don't think subtracting Z and adding Matthews would change that perception. It would take a lot more.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to the impact an elite player like Matthews could have on a team. Do you think outside of him their roster is THAT much better than ours? I don't. I do agree though that this team is in need of an overhaul at the top. I think it's time to move on from Holland and co. I know most, if not every Wings fan wants to get rid of Blashill, but if we could get rid of only one, general manager or head coach, Holland would be gone.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

22 hours ago, kliq said:

I have a question that I want people to really think about.

The narrative for the Leafs right now is that they are an up and coming team who have been built the right way, and are on the verge to take the NHL by storm

The narrative for the Wings is an aging team with some good young players, no elite talent, who refuse to admit they need to re-build.

Here is my question; If you were to swap out Z for Matthews, so in this hypothetical sceneio we have Matthews, they have Z, would we be the up and coming team about to make noise with Matthews/Larkin/Mantha/AA leading the charge, or would TO still have a better future then us.

They are obviously in a better cap situation then us there is no denying that, but I want to know if people think that their bright future is truly because of the way the franchise has been built, or if it really is as simply as they got Matthews.

This isn't a thread designed to praise or criticize Holland, its asking the question of how much impact does that one elite and possibly generational player make.

Thoughts? 

I took the 3rd bold as a continuation of the narratives, not a reality separate from it. I misunderstood the assignment. Sorry Teach.

If we had a Matthews caliber player, we would be closer to Toronto, yes. And if we had a Matthews caliber player, we would certainly have a brighter future, yes. Those are both hypothetical realities? (is that an oxymoron?)

But the "perception" of this team by outsiders would not change, even with Matthews. People would just say that "they're a team on the decline with a stud to rebuild with" unless other changes are made as well: trading away high salary veterans, new coach, new GM, etc. Then "perception" would change.

This is all just my 2 cents tho, and it's entirely possible I'm still doing it wrong. 

 

[Dabura 12,232]

The difference between the Leafs and the Wings is Auston Matthews. The Leafs got lucky.

The more people criticize Holland for "NOT DOING WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!111oneone," the more I find myself rooting for Holland and his vision (or his alleged lack thereof). I would love -- love -- for the Wings to jump back into serious Cup contention within the next 3-5 years without kneeling at the altar of "WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!111oneone" and groveling at Lady Parity's feet. Because f*** you, Parity. You were implemented because Ken Holland was too good at his job and the Wings were too successful. If our sole motivating purpose as an organization is to climb out of our hole on our own terms and spit in your face on our own terms, I'm ok with that.

The Leafs haven't won s*** in half a century. The last time they won the Cup, the Beatles were still together. The Wings have missed the playoffs once in the past quarter-century and our non-Matthews 2017 team is no less competent than a non-Matthews 2017 Leafs team would be.

If "spinning our wheels" for the next three years means we pick in the top ten of the next three drafts? Awesome, I'm down. If not having a McDavid or Matthews that we have to pay a billion dollars means we'll be that much better positioned to sign a marquee UFA or two? Awesome, I'm down.

Do your worst, Parity. The old gods, the true Hockey Gods, will smile upon the Detroit Red Wings and the Detroit Red Wings will spit in your face.

Bring it.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Dabura

[Akakabuto 1,863]

11 hours ago, big man said:

Leafs extend Reilly for 7.5 mil

x6 players will now make up roughly 70% of their cap next year.

Hooray!

B-b-b-but the Bolts have the same roster structure!

I've seen alot of Laughs fans making this point since yesterday. They dont seem to get the difference in that two of them are Vasilevsky and Hedman.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Akakabuto

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

You can't spell dumbass without D-U-B-A-S

[Akakabuto 1,863]

This season is very much a make it or break it for the Leafs. After this season there are 2 years left on Matthews contract. His last year also carries a NMC. Anybody thinks Matthews is staying in Toronto after this deal? If not, they better start thinking about trading him after this season if they want to maximize the return. 

[Barrie 900]

What a difference 4 years makes. Dubas screwed things up signing Tavares. It created this domino effect that would ruin everything.

I said it when Tavares signed. Nylander, Matthews, and Marner would base their contract demands on what Tavares was making, which they had every right to do... Then Reilly needed a contact a few years later. Their cap would be f-ed up by the time Reilly needed to resign!

I was telling my friends, who are Maple Leafs fans this when Tavares signed, but they didn't believe me. The Toronto media seemed clueless about it too. I understand supporting your team, but what I don't understand is how I could see this coming, but Toronto fans, media, and Maple Leafs organization couldn't.

2 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

This season is very much a make it or break it for the Leafs. After this season there are 2 years left on Matthews contract. His last year also carries a NMC. Anybody thinks Matthews is staying in Toronto after this deal? If not, they better start thinking about trading him after this season if they want to maximize the return. 

There's another screw up by Dubas. Matthews would be the guy, out of the 4 forwards, you'd want to keep. He's the power forward. Now they'll be left with the softer play makers, Tavares, Marner, and Nylander.

[Barrie 900]

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

You can't spell dumbass without D-U-B-A-S

Seriously, he built a team that could win the Cup, in EA Sports, not the NHL

[13dangledangle 968]

22 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

This season is very much a make it or break it for the Leafs. After this season there are 2 years left on Matthews contract. His last year also carries a NMC. Anybody thinks Matthews is staying in Toronto after this deal? If not, they better start thinking about trading him after this season if they want to maximize the return. 

Hasn't there been rumors around him heading back to Arizona?  He grew up in Scottsdale so it would make sense, this is what Ive heard regarding his future anyways.  Arizona has already started paving the way to offer him a contract in 2024 too from what I understand, only 3 Yotes on their current roster are signed beyond 2 seasons...could get very interesting

Edited October 30, 2021 by 13dangledangle

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

I believe the NHL will set a path to up the cap to 90 million over the next 2 years.  Both the Leafs and Lightning are good examples of teams building the right way.  These arent the 2002 Red Wings.  They have drafted most of their high pay talent, and I believe the league needs to make moves to allow them to stay together.  A 2-1 Luxury tax should do the trick.  Every dollar over the cap, 2 dollars back to the league from ownership.

[Akakabuto 1,863]

7 minutes ago, 13dangledangle said:

Hasn't there been rumors around him heading back to Arizona?  He grew up in Scottsdale so it would make sense, this is what Ive heard regarding his future anyways.  Arizona has already started paving the way to offer him a contract in 2024 too from what I understand, only 3 Yotes on their current roster are signed beyond 2 seasons...could get very interesting

Every team in the southwest will take a shot at signing him if they get the chance. 

[13dangledangle 968]

23 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

Every team in the southwest will take a shot at signing him if they get the chance. 

That’s the truth.  I feel they’d have the leverage though as the Yotes was his favourite team as a kid.  It just always hits different with that emotional tie

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

He just won the Norris Trophy in only his 2nd year in the NHL.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

5 hours ago, big man said:

Literally who?
Never heard of him
Can't be better than Morgan Rielly
How does he get that much?
Doesn't add up

Seider's gonna make like 14M/per in 2 years 

[ely s 458]

5 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Seider's gonna make like 14M/per in 2 years 

No, he will sign a team friendly 8 year $50m extension.

[bIueadams 776]

Steve Dangle said on his podcast that he was told by a reputable insider/staffer that claiming leafs players on waivers is a league wide meme. That other teams do it to the leafs for laughs.

Leafs have had like double more waiver claims than any other team.

He even says Shanahan has been shocked by some waiver claims, and it's clear teams are taking a piss at them.

I love that 31 other general managers collectively hate the leafs and actively try to screw them lmao

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

12 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Steve Dangle said on his podcast that he was told by a reputable insider/staffer that claiming leafs players on waivers is a league wide meme. That other teams do it to the leafs for laughs.

Leafs have had like double more waiver claims than any other team.

He even says Shanahan has been shocked by some waiver claims, and it's clear teams are taking a piss at them.

I love that 31 other general managers collectively hate the leafs and actively try to screw them lmao

Craig Janney organized all of this.  Hes still bitter.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

15 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Steve Dangle said on his podcast that he was told by a reputable insider/staffer that claiming leafs players on waivers is a league wide meme. That other teams do it to the leafs for laughs.

Leafs have had like double more waiver claims than any other team.

He even says Shanahan has been shocked by some waiver claims, and it's clear teams are taking a piss at them.

I love that 31 other general managers collectively hate the leafs and actively try to screw them lmao

If true, that's awesome. And well deserved.