Karlsson on the move?

[kickazz 5,459]

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Detroit - Karlsson (8 years at $10M) - 29 years old, signed until he's 37.

Ottawa - Larkin, Cholowski, 2019 1st round pick, 2020 2nd round pick.

Do you pull the trigger? I'd consider it for sure, but in the end, I think I'd pass...

 

Yep. I'd even offer then Nyquist or Tatar. 

Definitely a win for us. Larkin is no McDavid or Mathews and he never will be. Ever. Cholowski will never be Erik Karlsson. Not even Nicklas Lidstrom was Erik Karlsson when it comes to offense. 

We get the best player in the league at his position and give up what? A defenseman that might not even become a 1D? A forward that will likely never be as good as the best in the league? 100% done. 

Karlsson would also attract UFAs. Tavares would be a nice start. 

2019 UFA class is Seguin, Duchene, Couture, Bobrovsky. 2020 has Backstrom. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by kickazz

[marcaractac 3,963]

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

The only way I'd even consider trading for Karlsson is if it was a sign and trade. I have no interest in giving up a ton of assets for any pending UFA. Even with the sign and trade, I'd probably pass (at what I believe it would cost). People are talking about Mantha and a first. That's two big pieces, and even that wouldn't be close to enough. Any trade for Karlsson would start with Larkin and a first, and would likely have to include a high end defense prospect, as well as another high pick.

There's a reason players of Karlsson's ilk aren't traded anymore (unless an equal player is coming back the other way). Teams aren't willing to part with the massive package it would take to get them. With more and more teams looking to build through the draft, and young players on ELC's, it just wouldn't make much sense to try to fill one hole, by creating another potentially bigger one. I still say no to Karlsson, unless of course, we're able to lure him as a UFA next summer (2019).

Here's a hypothetical sign and trade.

Detroit - Karlsson (8 years at $10M) - 29 years old, signed until he's 37.

Ottawa - Larkin, Cholowski, 2019 1st round pick, 2020 2nd round pick.

Do you pull the trigger? I'd consider it for sure, but in the end, I think I'd pass...

 

Karlsson is 27. Swap Larkin for Ras and I make this trade all day long. Only reason I'd not do Larkin is because it would just create a glaring hole down the middle. Only way Larkin becomes expendable in such a deal IMO is if we lucked out and signed Tavares. 

I'd do Mantha, 2018 1st (lottery protected) and Cholo without hesitation. 

[kickazz 5,459]

9 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Karlsson is 27. Swap Larkin for Ras and I make this trade all day long. Only reason I'd not do Larkin is because it would just create a glaring hole down the middle. Only way Larkin becomes expendable in such a deal IMO is if we lucked out and signed Tavares. 

I'd do Mantha, 2018 1st (lottery protected) and Cholo without hesitation. 

Was going to say this too, Karlsson is 27. Would be 28 when he gets here.

Having a slightly off year (but so is Ottawa in general) but just look at the guys f***in track record is insane. Not only 2 Norris Trophies but finished second in Norris voting 2 years in a row. 

Losing Larkin could create a hole in the center position but honestly that's a fixable one. It's extremely hard and unpredictable to draft good defensemen in this league (Dahlin is the first real legit one that's guaranteed since who knows?). Every year you get Centers in that draft you know are going to be good. McDavid, Mathews back to back is an example. The same is not the case for a defenseman. 

We fix this defensive hole (something you can't do by drafting as easily), create one in the center position but said position is pretty fixable. 

Good defensemen are hard to find, centers are not. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Yep. I'd even offer then Nyquist or Tatar. 

Definitely a win for us. Larkin is no McDavid or Mathews and he never will be. Ever. Cholowski will never be Erik Karlsson. Not even Nicklas Lidstrom was Erik Karlsson when it comes to offense. 

We get the best player in the league at his position and give up what? A defenseman that might not even become a 1D? A forward that will likely never be as good as the best in the league? 100% done. 

Karlsson would also attract UFAs. Tavares would be a nice start. 

2019 UFA class is Seguin, Duchene, Couture, Bobrovsky. 2020 has Backstrom. 

That easy hey? Like I said, I'd consider it, but in the end I'd have to pass. It doesn't matter if Larkin is on McDavid or Matthews level. We don't have a single other center on the team or in the organization with his upside. Same goes for Cholowski. The only other defenseman with top 2 potential is Hronek. That would be two huge losses. Not to mention the 1st rounder that would likely be another lottery pick...

Teams aren't built through free agency. The chance of any of those guys hitting the market is slim, and the chance of any of them coming here is even slimmer...

5 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Karlsson is 27. Swap Larkin for Ras and I make this trade all day long. Only reason I'd not do Larkin is because it would just create a glaring hole down the middle. Only way Larkin becomes expendable in such a deal IMO is if we lucked out and signed Tavares. 

I'd do Mantha, 2018 1st (lottery protected) and Cholo without hesitation. 

Yes, Karlsson is 27, but will be 29 when his new contract kicks in. I agree about not wanting to give up Larkin.

I'd make that trade as well... with hesitation.

 

I'm a huge fan of Karlsson, but he has struggled this season. I'm sure a lot of that is due to the injury, but will he fully recover? Likely, but not guaranteed. Granted, Karlsson at 50% is better than anything we have seen since Lidstrom, but I'd still be hesitant to make the trade package I mentioned.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

There is not one player on this roster that's off limits if it means getting Karlsson for the next 8 years.

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Was going to say this too, Karlsson is 27. Would be 28 when he gets here.

Having a slightly off year (but so is Ottawa in general) but just look at the guys f***in track record is insane. Not only 2 Norris Trophies but finished second in Norris voting 2 years in a row. 

Losing Larkin could create a hole in the center position but honestly that's a fixable one. It's extremely hard and unpredictable to draft good defensemen in this league (Dahlin is the first real legit one that's guaranteed since who knows?). Every year you get Centers in that draft you know are going to be good. McDavid, Mathews back to back is an example. The same is not the case for a defenseman. 

We fix this defensive hole (something you can't do by drafting as easily), create one in the center position but said position is pretty fixable. 

Good defensemen are hard to find, centers are not. 

For us maybe. I'm sure Nashville would say the exact opposite.

[marcaractac 3,963]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

That easy hey? Like I said, I'd consider it, but in the end I'd have to pass. It doesn't matter if Larkin is on McDavid or Matthews level. We don't have a single other center on the team or in the organization with his upside. Same goes for Cholowski. The only other defenseman with top 2 potential is Hronek. That would be two huge losses. Not to mention the 1st rounder that would likely be another lottery pick...

Teams aren't built through free agency. The chance of any of those guys hitting the market is slim, and the chance of any of them coming here is even slimmer...

Yes, Karlsson is 27, but will be 29 when his new contract kicks in. I agree about not wanting to give up Larkin.

I'd make that trade as well... with hesitation.

 

I'm a huge fan of Karlsson, but he has struggled this season. I'm sure a lot of that is due to the injury, but will he fully recover? Likely, but not guaranteed. Granted, Karlsson at 50% is better than anything we have seen since Lidstrom, but I'd still be hesitant to make the trade package I mentioned.

To be fair, having a summer of recovery has no doubt hurt his season. That combined with the Sens suckage. I have little doubt he will be in full on beast mode again next year. 

[kickazz 5,459]

4 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

For us maybe. I'm sure Nashville would say the exact opposite.

Credit to our scouts then. It just proves why we wouldn't issues with fixing the hole at the center position. 

We have centers for days on this team. And I'm sure we'll continue to draft more of them. 

3 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

To be fair, having a summer of recovery has no doubt hurt his season. That combined with the Sens suckage. I have little doubt he will be in full on beast mode again next year. 

Karlsson is going to win at least 2 more Norris Trophies. He's got a long successful career ahead of him. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

To be fair, having a summer of recovery has no doubt hurt his season. That combined with the Sens suckage. I have little doubt he will be in full on beast mode again next year. 

I agree. Like I said, he most likely will return to form. He's in a dumpster fire of an organization run by two idiots, Melnyk and Dorion. I'm sure there are a ton of things factoring into his down year. He'll probably be better than ever once he gets out of there.

6 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Credit to our scouts then. It just proves why we have no issues with fixing the hole at the center position. 

We have centers for days on this team. And I'm sure we'll continue to draft more of them. 

We don't though. Beyond Larkin, we don't have a single player with 1C potential. Sure we have a lot of depth at center, but no real high end guys. Rasmussen may surprise and become a 1C, but I doubt it...

[amato 3,210]

14 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Was going to say this too, Karlsson is 27. Would be 28 when he gets here.

Having a slightly off year (but so is Ottawa in general) but just look at the guys f***in track record is insane. Not only 2 Norris Trophies but finished second in Norris voting 2 years in a row. 

Losing Larkin could create a hole in the center position but honestly that's a fixable one. It's extremely hard and unpredictable to draft good defensemen in this league (Dahlin is the first real legit one that's guaranteed since who knows?). Every year you get Centers in that draft you know are going to be good. McDavid, Mathews back to back is an example. The same is not the case for a defenseman. 

We fix this defensive hole (something you can't do by drafting as easily), create one in the center position but said position is pretty fixable. 

Good defensemen are hard to find, centers are not. 

 

Aaron Ekblad is the most recent lottery pick hyped defenseman that comes to mind.. not that his hype was as much as Dahlin’s though. Don’t think any defenseman in NHL history has ever had as much predraft hype as Dahlin. 

[kickazz 5,459]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We don't though. Beyond Larkin, we don't have a single player with 1C potential. Sure we have a lot of depth at center, but no real high end guys. Rasmussen may surprise and become a 1C, but I doubt it...

The franchise thinks he has 1C potential. I also think Larkin is a little overrated around here. He's good, I like him. But he's nowhere close to being elite. Shooting % is awful. Defensively he's good (not Datsyuk or Zetterberg level though). Has speed to his advantage; probably his greatest asset, though he's not much of a possession player around 50% on his corsi. Decent on faceoffs (will probably get better though). Not a PPG player either. On a good team he would be a 2C. 

If that's all he's going to be then to me that doesn't really spell out "untouchable". Even if he improves in some of those aspects (he will), it's not something that's guaranteed. What's guaranteed is Karlsson with his proven track record.

Either way if we lose Larkin for Karlsson July 1 then we push hard for Tavares. If that doesn’t work then push for another center the following year. Like I said, Seguin, Backstrom, Couture are all pending UFAs and could hit the market. If by then they don’t Ras could be in the line up. And by then we should continue drafting a center or two. 

It’s not like we give up Larkin and just don’t do anything about it. We continue to actively develop Ras, draft and push UFAs. Lots of star centers on expiring contracts btw. 

I’d rather be handicapped in the center position than Defense. Nashvill made the finals. We haven’t even gotten past the first or second round  since Lidstrom. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

The franchise thinks he has 1C potential. I also think Larkin is a little overrated around here. He's good, I like him. But he's nowhere close to being elite. Shooting % is awful. Defensively he's good (not Datsyuk or Zetterberg level though). Has speed to his advantage; probably his greatest asset, though he's not much of a possession player around 50% on his corsi. Decent on faceoffs (will probably get better though). Not a PPG player either. On a good team he would be a 2C. 

If that's all he's going to be then to me that doesn't really spell out "untouchable". Even if he improves in some of those aspects (he will), it's not something that's guaranteed. What's guaranteed is Karlsson with his proven track record.

I don't know about overrated. I don't really hear or see anyone overrating him, other than the small number of people that consider him "elite". He's definitely not elite, but I do think he is / will be a legit 1C (top 31 center) for a long time. I disagree that his speed is his greatest asset. I would say that would be his drive and determination. Which is the number one reason I believe he will reach his full potential.

I never said Larkin was "untouchable". This isn't just about the value of Larkin. Obviously if that's all it took, I'd trade him in a heartbeat, but the entire package, it would be a tough call. And there's no saying that the package I suggested would even get the deal done.

 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

31 minutes ago, amato said:

 

Aaron Ekblad is the most recent lottery pick hyped defenseman that comes to mind.. not that his hype was as much as Dahlin’s though. Don’t think any defenseman in NHL history has ever had as much predraft hype as Dahlin. 

Hedman maybe wasn't as hyped as Ekblad, but he would have gone first overall in 09 if not for some guy named John T (and no i don't mean the one in Chicago that sucks). IF Dahlin is better than Hedman and Ekblad, that's not just elite, that's "generational".

[amato 3,210]

2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Hedman maybe wasn't as hyped as Ekblad, but he would have gone first overall in 09 if not for some guy named John T (and no i don't mean the one in Chicago that sucks). IF Dahlin is better than Hedman and Ekblad, that's not just elite, that's "generational".

Yup yup. He sure as hell sounds like a generational talent so far. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Hedman maybe wasn't as hyped as Ekblad, but he would have gone first overall in 09 if not for some guy named John T (and no i don't mean the one in Chicago that sucks). IF Dahlin is better than Hedman and Ekblad, that's not just elite, that's "generational".

And that's just what he's projected to be. Apparently he's the best defenseman leading up to the draft since Denis Potvin. Better than Hedman, better than Karlsson, and better than Lidstrom. This kid is going to be the #realdeal.

Edit: ... and I'm not saying he WILL be better than all of those players, just that no defenseman has ever had the hype surrounding him or potential as Dahlin.

Edited February 20, 2018 by krsmith17

[LeftWinger 4,965]

We need to get this #1 pick!

[krsmith17 7,191]

There's talk of Tampa going hard after Karlsson... That would be insane. The crazy thing is, they actually have the disposable assets to get a deal done. What do people think it would cost Yzerman?

Brayden Point, Cal Foote, 2018 1st round pick, 2019 2nd round pick?... Would that be enough? Too much?...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 2/20/2018 at 11:19 AM, krsmith17 said:

And that's just what he's projected to be. Apparently he's the best defenseman leading up to the draft since Denis Potvin. Better than Hedman, better than Karlsson, and better than Lidstrom. This kid is going to be the #realdeal.

Edit: ... and I'm not saying he WILL be better than all of those players, just that no defenseman has ever had the hype surrounding him or potential as Dahlin.

Lidstrom is better than Potvin

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Lidstrom is better than Potvin

Who said he wasn't?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Who said he wasn't?

"The best since Potvin"

[krsmith17 7,191]

"Leading up to the draft"... Potvin was a highly coveted 1st overall pick. Lidstrom was some Swedish kid selected in the 3rd round that very few teams knew anything about...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

24 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

"Leading up to the draft"... Potvin was a highly coveted 1st overall pick. Lidstrom was some Swedish kid selected in the 3rd round that very few teams knew anything about...

Then why did you mention Lidstrom in the first place???

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Then why did you mention Lidstrom in the first place???

... because Potvin was more hyped than Lidstrom or literally any other defenseman in the history of the NHL draft... until this year's draft with Dahlin...

[LeftWinger 4,965]

https://t.co/Qmu3GWVMPL

 

Way too much for the return! 7 pieces? Plus have to pick up Ryan's $7M+ contract with 4 years left? I would've loved to have Bobby Ryan years ago, but he is pretty average now and makes too much. That is a lot of cap to pick up, plus having to re-sign Karlsson after next season.  I cannot imagine the 7 pieces it is going to take to acquire him.  Let alone the amount of cap space teams will have to try to send back or dump elsewhere in order to afford the two...yikes!

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

48 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

... because Potvin was more hyped than Lidstrom or literally any other defenseman in the history of the NHL draft... until this year's draft with Dahlin...

 

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

"Leading up to the draft"... Potvin was a highly coveted 1st overall pick. Lidstrom was some Swedish kid selected in the 3rd round that very few teams knew anything about...

The comparison doesn't make sense when you consider Lidstrom wasn't hyped at all