Andreas Athanasiou Officially Signed 2 yrs. $3M AAV

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, Dabura said:

*your

Your literally hitler

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Your literally hitler

Hey. No politics! 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Hey. No politics! 

And now your adolf too

[kickazz 5,459]

51 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

33 pts. 16 goals. Not very good. Plain and simple.

In 71 games. About the same rate as Nyquist.

Also a better rate than Larkin in his 2nd season. Who scored 32 in 80 games. Who was also a -28. (Holy s*** that’s terrible).

You’re* move. 

There is literally no statistical baseline to turn on AA like some of you have. It’s premature, like it or not. 

If he sucks after enough games, I’ll join the party.

Until then he’s a whipping boy to feed everyone’s insecurities.

Veleno and Rasmussen are on deck for it.

Edited July 20, 2018 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

19 minutes ago, kickazz said:

In 71 games. About the same rate as Nyquist.

Also a better rate than Larkin in his 2nd season. Who scored 32 in 80 games. Who was also a -28. (Holy s*** that’s terrible).

You’re* move. 

There is literally no statistical baseline to turn on AA like some of you have. It’s premature, like it or not. 

If he sucks after enough games, I’ll join the party.

Until then he’s a whipping boy to feed everyone’s insecurities.

Veleno and Rasmussen are on deck for it.

I don't think anyone here thinks he sucks. I've been pretty clear that I'm still optimistic about the soon to be 24 year old. But since you're intent on building up the false narrative that everyone at LGW hates AA, here you go:

Nyquist sucks too. Complete garbage. Hopefully we can get a 4th for him.

Larkin was lazy AF his second year, and never played D. Were lucky the loser didn't turn into a complete and total bust.

Larkin is 21 and just had a 60 pt season. AA is about to turn 24 and can barely string together 30 points. He's peaked, and his peak looks like total trash.

Does this please you?

 

 

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

In 71 games. About the same rate as Nyquist.

Also a better rate than Larkin in his 2nd season. Who scored 32 in 80 games. Who was also a -28. (Holy s*** that’s terrible).

You’re* move. 

There is literally no statistical baseline to turn on AA like some of you have. It’s premature, like it or not. 

If he sucks after enough games, I’ll join the party.

Until then he’s a whipping boy to feed everyone’s insecurities.

Veleno and Rasmussen are on deck for it.

 

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I don't think anyone here thinks he sucks. I've been pretty clear that I'm still optimistic about the soon to be 24 year old. But since you're intent on building up the false narrative that everyone at LGW hates AA, here you go:

Nyquist sucks too. Complete garbage. Hopefully we can get a 4th for him.

Larkin was lazy AF his second year, and never played D. Were lucky the loser didn't turn into a complete and total bust.

Larkin is 21 and just had a 60 pt season. AA is about to turn 24 and can barely string together 30 points. He's peaked, and his peak looks like total trash.

Does this please you?

 

 

This post actually doesn't address my biggest point which was comparing Larkin's second season to AA, the season he had worse production and was -28. Instead, all it does is ignore the comparison and poses a Red Herring. And my premise was that t's still premature to turn on AA with 2 real seasons under his belt. People have turned on AA as I've shown with my specific post earlier. Claiming that a player is unwilling to be coached as if it's factual is reaching. See the quote below. 

2 hours ago, kickazz said:

Someone pulled the Franzen trigger on you and you went off on AA. Saying that he’ll never be even at Franzen’s 2010 level.

Before that Neo responded to Buppy’s question about why everyone is turning on AA already, to which Neo accused AA of unwilling to be coached as if he has the ins and outs of AA’s life.

I have seen absolutely zero evidence that AA is unwilling to be coached or learn. With Mrazek there were reports that came out directly about some of the issues he was having with the team and he admitted them in interviews as well. With AA there are zero, zero quotes from him or coaches that he is unwilling to be coached or has issues with the team.

 

Lemme show you some interesting numbers. Look at the age, points per game played and the ice time. You may recognize these stats personally. I know @LeftWinger would. I wonder who guesses the right answer first between you two. Whoever this player was, he was probably going to be trash after that second season man. Ughhh. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

19 minutes ago, kickazz said:

 

This post actually doesn't address my biggest point which was comparing Larkin's second season to AA, the season he had worse production and was -28. Instead, all it does is ignore the comparison and poses a Red Herring. And my premise was that t's still premature to turn on AA with 2 real seasons under his belt. People have turned on AA as I've shown with my specific post earlier. Claiming that a player is unwilling to be coached as if it's factual is reaching. See the quote below. 

Lemme show you some interesting numbers. Look at the age, points per game played and the ice time. You may recognize these stats personally. I know @LeftWinger would. I wonder who guesses the right answer first between you two. Whoever this player was, he was probably going to be trash after that second season man. Ughhh. 

Larkin is a stud. AA is a thug.

 @Neomaxizoomdweebie do you hate AA as much as I do?

[LeftWinger 4,963]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

 

This post actually doesn't address my biggest point which was comparing Larkin's second season to AA, the season he had worse production and was -28. Instead, all it does is ignore the comparison and poses a Red Herring. And my premise was that t's still premature to turn on AA with 2 real seasons under his belt. People have turned on AA as I've shown with my specific post earlier. Claiming that a player is unwilling to be coached as if it's factual is reaching. See the quote below. 

Lemme show you some interesting numbers. Look at the age, points per game played and the ice time. You may recognize these stats personally. I know @LeftWinger would. I wonder who guesses the right answer first between you two. Whoever this player was, he was probably going to be trash after that second season man. Ughhh. 

Well I certainly hope AA's stats don't go the way of Franzen after his "serious contract"

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

16 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Well I certainly hope AA's stats don't go the way of Franzen after his "serious contract"

 

 

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin is a stud. AA is a thug.

 @Neomaxizoomdweebie do you hate AA as much as I do?

And this here is the post admitting defeat.

37 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Well I certainly hope AA's stats don't go the way of Franzen after his "serious contract"

AA has a better start to his career than Franzen did. Franzen played on the better team.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

31 minutes ago, kickazz said:

And this here is the post admitting defeat.

AA has a better start to his career than Franzen did. Franzen played on the better team.

Oh no, I lost trying to defend a position I don't support, in a narrative you've completely made up.

Drang it. Drang it all to heck.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh no, I lost trying to defend a position I don't support, in a narrative you've completely made up.

Drang it. Drang it all to heck.

His numbers are being labeled as “not very good” and used as a way to criticize him. Yet when certain players like Franzén or Larkin had worse numbers in their second NHL, not a peep. Data indicates AA had a similar sophomore year as most any recent Red Wing player, maybe slightly better actually. Which makes me not want to jump the gun on him yet.

No made up narrative. It’s all written here.

Edited July 20, 2018 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,963]

I continue to believe, if AA is given consistent top 6 minutes (and line mates) and top PP time, he'll score over 30 goals and net about 50-60 points.

1st PP Line:

Zadina (Rasmussen) - Larkin - Mantha

                 AA - Green

I know it's a bit different than in my "lines thread" but I think that he may be deadly with that on-timer from the high slot opposite side shift.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin is a stud. AA is a thug.

 @Neomaxizoomdweebie do you hate AA as much as I do?

Don't bring me back into this! I never said I hate him or that AA sucks, just that he needs work. And that at this point I would rather have Nyquist in the top 6 over him. Which is completely my opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong.

Frankly, I don't know what we are arguing about. We clearly all agree that AA hasn't reached his full potential and will need to continue to work at improvement, right? So why the "hater" comments?

And  as far as the comments about AA not wanting to be coached, it is absolutely true that I am not privy to that whole situation. What I do know is that AA was benched multiple times this past season. Is it because he wasn't listening to his coaches (coaching), or was it because he sucked? IDK. But, you don't get benched for no good reason. Obviously there was an issue. That's not overstating the facts at all. But either way it means that I am unfairly critical of AA apparently.

17 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I continue to believe, if AA is given consistent top 6 minutes (and line mates) and top PP time, he'll score over 30 goals and net about 50-60 points.

1st PP Line:

Zadina (Rasmussen) - Larkin - Mantha

                 AA - Green

I know it's a bit different than in my "lines thread" but I think that he may be deadly with that on-timer from the high slot opposite side shift.

Weak argument. His numbers would be better because he'd be playing with Z and getting PP time. Am I doing it right?

Edited July 21, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[LeftWinger 4,963]

3 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Don't bring me back into this! I never said I hate him or that AA sucks, just that he needs work. And that at this point I would rather have Nyquist in the top 6 over him. Which is completely my opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong.

Frankly, I don't know what we are arguing about. We clearly all agree that AA hasn't reached his full potential and will need to continue to work at improvement, right? So why the "hater" comments?

And  as far as the comments about AA not wanting to be coached, it is absolutely true that I am not privy to that whole situation. What I do know is that AA was benched multiple times this past season. Is it because he wasn't listening to his coaches (coaching), or was it because he sucked? IDK. But, you don't get benched for no good reason. Obviously there was an issue. That's not overstating the facts at all. But either way it means that I am unfairly critical of AA apparently.

Weak argument. His numbers would be better because he'd be playing with Z. 

I am not arguing at all. I am not part of your debate, I just said IMO if he was given top 6 minutes and line mates, along with top PP, he score 30 or more goals. He is a good enough scorer that given the minutes, he would excel.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

29 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I am not arguing at all. I am not part of your debate, I just said IMO if he was given top 6 minutes and line mates, along with top PP, he score 30 or more goals. He is a good enough scorer that given the minutes, he would excel.

No offense. Wasn't aimed at you. Just making a wisecrack about an earlier post.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, kickazz said:

His numbers are being labeled as “not very good” and used as a way to criticize him. Yet when certain players like Franzén or Larkin had worse numbers in their second NHL, not a peep. Data indicates AA had a similar sophomore year as most any recent Red Wing player, maybe slightly better actually. Which makes me not want to jump the gun on him yet.

No made up narrative. It’s all written here.

I think you have very strong opinions about players 2nd seasons. Cool. I don't. And I still don't know why were discussing it.

Besides, everyone knows a players 9th year of play is what defines their entire career and nothing else...

 

Thought I'd made it pretty clear in this thread, as well as in others threads, my thoughts on AA:::::

 

On 7/18/2018 at 11:52 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

At this point in time that's where he's slotted. He's gotta take the next step up. I'm optimistic about him, I think he can.

 

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Like I said, I'm optimistic as well, but my worry is Mrazek syndrome... That he's going to dig his heels in and double-down on being the flashy one-dimensional player he currently is.

 

And I wrote an entire book to Lefty in another thread explaining my thoughts on AA just recently, and I was pretty generous in my assessment.

Yet, your still trying to convince me his 2nd season was awesome and that is the reason I'm stupid for prematurely turning on him....

I HAVE HIGH HOPES FOR THIS KID, I HAVEN'T TURNED ON HIM, YOU'RE ARGUING WITH A WALL.

I hope that's clearer than my sarcastic insults of his play...

8 hours ago, kickazz said:

Until then he’s a whipping boy to feed everyone’s insecurities.

Projecting much?

 

Whipping boy. Now here's an argument we can have. I 110% disagree that AA is the new whipping boy, a whipping boy, whatever you wanna call it. I just don't see it. Who have you had to fend off to protect the poor Athanasiou? Neo? Me lol? Both Neo and I have come right out and said we don't think he sucks, although that's all I'll say on Neo's behalf and I'll let him speak for himself. Have I been critical of his game? 100 times yes. I think he has the tools to do A LOT more than he's already doing.  I am not satisfied with 30 points from this player. I see a player with the talent to approach 50-60 pts a season.

Neo likes Nyquist more and the fair-weather LGWers think his new contract is overpayment. Whoopdeedooo, he's not a martyr boy. There's plenty of actual overpaid waste of space players on this team who deserve your standing in for them.

 

This narrative in your head that everyone has turned on AA is completely fabricated.

Edited July 21, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I continue to believe, if AA is given consistent top 6 minutes (and line mates) and top PP time, he'll score over 30 goals and net about 50-60 points.

1st PP Line:

Zadina (Rasmussen) - Larkin - Mantha

                 AA - Green

I know it's a bit different than in my "lines thread" but I think that he may be deadly with that on-timer from the high slot opposite side shift.

I think if he wants to be a 30 goal scorer he has to get the minutes and evolve his game. I think growing his game would be extremely beneficial to his minutes.

That said, i agree, I think this kid clearly has the ability to surpass 50 pts in a season.

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Don't bring me back into this! I never said I hate him or that AA sucks, just that he needs work. And that at this point I would rather have Nyquist in the top 6 over him. Which is completely my opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong.

Frankly, I don't know what we are arguing about. We clearly all agree that AA hasn't reached his full potential and will need to continue to work at improvement, right? So why the "hater" comments?

And  as far as the comments about AA not wanting to be coached, it is absolutely true that I am not privy to that whole situation. What I do know is that AA was benched multiple times this past season. Is it because he wasn't listening to his coaches (coaching), or was it because he sucked? IDK. But, you don't get benched for no good reason. Obviously there was an issue. That's not overstating the facts at all. But either way it means that I am unfairly critical of AA apparently.

Weak argument. His numbers would be better because he'd be playing with Z and getting PP time. Am I doing it right?

Not trying to bring you back in, just trying to use you to get my point across. You don't hate AA or think he sucks, just that he has things to work on. And I would agree with you.

2nd paragraph: Frankly, I dont know either.

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/six-early-nhl-breakout-candidates-watch-2018-19/

Andreas Athanasiou, Detroit Red Wings

 His explosive speed makes him exciting to watch and the offensive upside is still there — the question is whether Athanasiou’s defensive game will become strong enough that a coach can comfortably make him a top-six player.

This isn't journalism, it's complete fabrication. This guy should be fired. FAKE NEWS!

[kickazz 5,459]

17 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think you have very strong opinions about players 2nd seasons. Cool. I don't. And I still don't know why were discussing it.

Because AA is only had two real years..? Thought that was obvious. He did better his first year and second year slumped, just like Larkin did. Larkin did much worse than AA. 

And your quote to AA's numbers in his second year was the following.

On 7/20/2018 at 1:24 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

33 pts. 16 goals. Not very good. Plain and simple.

By deduction you would agree that both Larkin and Franzen's numbers in their 2nd year was "not very good. Plain and simple"? Unless you have bias against AA and are willing to make exceptions for Franzen and Larkin. 

And since Larkin and Franzen eventually got better; by deduction one would assume AA can also get better.

Hence why I think it's too early to call a player out based on his numbers (like you did) when there is a good probability that player gets better. 

17 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I HAVE HIGH HOPES FOR THIS KID, I HAVEN'T TURNED ON HIM, YOU'RE ARGUING WITH A WALL.

Do you think he's unwilling to be coached? 

Edited July 21, 2018 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/six-early-nhl-breakout-candidates-watch-2018-19/

Andreas Athanasiou, Detroit Red Wings

 His explosive speed makes him exciting to watch and the offensive upside is still there — the question is whether Athanasiou’s defensive game will become strong enough that a coach can comfortably make him a top-six player.

This isn't journalism, it's complete fabrication. This guy should be fired. FAKE NEWS!

Cherry picked article. Glad CRL dragged you back in. Time to have some fun again. 

Rest of the article states the following: 

In Athanasiou’s first two NHL seasons, his shooting percentages were 17 and 15, but that dropped to 9.4 in 2017-18 as he registered 16 goals. It’s fair to say that over a full season he should be at least a 20-goal scorer with the possibility for more.

Remember, too, that the 23-year-old missed training camp and the first 10 games in 2017 due to a contract dispute and that often leads to an underwhelming season. Now he’s locked in with a two-year, $6 million deal so should get off to a better start. On top of that, only three of his 33 points came on the power play despite averaging 1:44 PP minutes per game, so there could be an uptick there as well. The crux of Athanasiou’s breakout candidacy is in how much ice time the Red Wings (or an acquiring team) give him.

If his goals come up as expected, can his assists and ice time rise to a level that allows him to have a true breakout

PLAYER	5on5 Points/60	Average TOI/game
Dylan Larkin	2.27	19:51
Anthony Mantha	1.88	17:18
Andreas Athanasiou	1.81	15:19
Martin Frk	1.69	10:17
Henrik Zetterberg	1.65	19:30
Gustav Nyquist	1.59	17:51

Look at that AA better than Nyquist on 5 on 5. @Neomaxizoomdweebie

17 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think if he wants to be a 30 goal scorer he has to get the minutes and evolve his game. I think growing his game would be extremely beneficial to his minutes.

That said, i agree, I think this kid clearly has the ability to surpass 50 pts in a season.

Not trying to bring you back in, just trying to use you to get my point across. You don't hate AA or think he sucks, just that he has things to work on. And I would agree with you.

2nd paragraph: Frankly, I dont know either.

 

Inaccurate, your boy thinks AA is unwilling to be coached. That's a pretty hefty accusation for an NHL player. Not the same as "things to work on"

Edited July 21, 2018 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

19 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

And  as far as the comments about AA not wanting to be coached, it is absolutely true that I am not privy to that whole situation. What I do know is that AA was benched multiple times this past season. Is it because he wasn't listening to his coaches (coaching), or was it because he sucked? IDK. But, you don't get benched for no good reason. Obviously there was an issue. That's not overstating the facts at all. But either way it means that I am unfairly critical of AA apparently.

 

It's not that you're not privy to the situation. It's more like you came up with the narrative that he doesn't want to be coached because you were frustrated when I challenged you over Nyquist v AA and started making personal attacks on AA lol.

But to educate you on the matter. Blashill has clearly stated why he's benched AA. It's not like a murder mystery like you're trying to make it out to be. The reasons are all apparent and have been in post-game interviews as well. 

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2018/02/13/red-wings-jeff-blashill-explains-benching-andreas-athanasiou/336056002/

If after reading direct evidence from the coach as to the reasons of his benching, you still think it's unclear and think he's unwilling to be coached or think it's some blackbox then not sure what to tell you lol. It's just a second year NHL player having ups and downs and got benched and is learning. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by kickazz

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

38 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Cherry picked article. Glad CRL dragged you back in. Time to have some fun again. 

Rest of the article states the following: 

In Athanasiou’s first two NHL seasons, his shooting percentages were 17 and 15, but that dropped to 9.4 in 2017-18 as he registered 16 goals. It’s fair to say that over a full season he should be at least a 20-goal scorer with the possibility for more.

Remember, too, that the 23-year-old missed training camp and the first 10 games in 2017 due to a contract dispute and that often leads to an underwhelming season. Now he’s locked in with a two-year, $6 million deal so should get off to a better start. On top of that, only three of his 33 points came on the power play despite averaging 1:44 PP minutes per game, so there could be an uptick there as well. The crux of Athanasiou’s breakout candidacy is in how much ice time the Red Wings (or an acquiring team) give him.

If his goals come up as expected, can his assists and ice time rise to a level that allows him to have a true breakout

PLAYER	5on5 Points/60	Average TOI/game
Dylan Larkin	2.27	19:51
Anthony Mantha	1.88	17:18
Andreas Athanasiou	1.81	15:19
Martin Frk	1.69	10:17
Henrik Zetterberg	1.65	19:30
Gustav Nyquist	1.59	17:51

Look at that AA better than Nyquist on 5 on 5. @Neomaxizoomdweebie

Inaccurate, your boy thinks AA is unwilling to be coached. That's a pretty hefty accusation for an NHL player. Not the same as "things to work on"

Didn't quote it because it didn't negate anything I said. For the thousandth time, AA needs to round out his game by working on his defense if:

A. He wants more ice time (top 6)

B. We want his scoring to increase as a result.

It's really up to AA. That's the frustrating part. A player's potential, or projection are totally irrelevant if he isn't getting the ice time he needs to due to being sit by his Coach. Do you really think that if he was playing the game the way he was being coached to that he would be benched? I don't. Even if his offense dried up for a stretch, he would still get ice time if he was still playing "Blashill hockey." 

Pretty much what I have been saying. The article doesn't say any different.

Do we really need to discuss again why that is? Notice how Nyquist gets more ice time than AA? Wonder why?

Don't know if that is really what i said or not, and i don't feel like rehashing it. But if those were my "exact words", then that was a bad choice of words. What I should have said was "not listening to his coach."  Which is a completely reasonable think to say based on the information available.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Didn't quote it because it didn't negate anything I said. For the thousandth time, AA needs to round out his game by working on his defense if:

A. He wants more ice time (top 6)

B. We want his scoring to increase as a result.

It's really up to AA. That's the frustrating part. A player's potential, or projection are totally irrelevant if he isn't getting the ice time he needs to due to being sit by his Coach. Do you really think that if he was playing the game the way he was being coached to that he would be benched? I don't. Even if his offense dried up for a stretch, he would still get ice time if he was still playing "Blashill hockey." 

Pretty much what I have been saying. The article doesn't say any different.

This is exactly my point. AA's ice time is fine for a 2nd full year hockey player. It's 15 minutes + per game. Gets PP time and some PK time. You're making the situation out to be worse than it is. You're coming up with a narrative that somehow he's getting little ice time and it's because he's not good enough. I was actually very happy with AA's ice time last year. It was an upward trend compared to the year before. Guy hasn't even played a full 82 game season yet ya'll are making the situation way too dramatic. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Do we really need to discuss again why that is? Notice how Nyquist gets more ice time than AA? Wonder why?

Because Nyquist is a 6 year veteran and AA is just finished his 2nd actual season and still learning I would presume. Again, comparing a vet to a youngster (and the two of them having very similar stats) is actually an argument in favor of AA. It doesn't really make Nyquist look good when he's been in the NHL 6 years and is being compared to someone with significantly less experience.  

In his third "full" NHL season Nyquist actually had less ice time than AA did last year. Lmfao. Nyquist had 15:10 ice time whereas AA had 15:19.  

Also here. More evidence to call you out on your bulls*** about Nyquist.

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/02/02/detroit-red-wings-power-play/97401626/

Detroit Red Wings coach Jeff Blashill took forwards Gustav Nyquist and Anthony Mantha off of the power-play units in practice today at McCann Arena in Grosse Pointe Woods but didn’t say whether that will translate to games. Dylan Larkin and Riley Sheahan practiced on the power play instead.

Blashill said he wasn’t happy that Nyquist and Mantha didn’t backcheck hard on the first of two shorthanded goals by the New Jersey Devils in a 4-3 loss Tuesday. 

Ooof not the best thing to hear about a vet player in his 5th season at the time. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by kickazz