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kickazz

Yzerman vs Fedorov. Which one was better?

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1 hour ago, kliq said:

If you want to compare stats, we really should be comparing each player in their respective primes to the rest of the league at that time.

During Yzerman's prime (the 7 years from 87-94) the only players to outscore him were Gretzky and Lemieux. 

Fedorov's peak scoring was from 90-96, when he was 10th. Yzerman was 7th over the same span. 4-year peak from 92-96 he was 6th, and over 3 years he got to 4th. 

Feds peak 3-year period he averaged 1.37 p/g, slightly better than Yzerman's peak 7-years (1.36, adjusted for league scoring average), but below his 3-year peak (1.44).

Scoring-wise Yzerman wins hands down, if only for longevity. In terms of complete game, Fedorov might have an edge, but it's hard to say since it's so difficult to quantify all the other stuff, particularly intangibles like "leadership". 

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Not getting all these "different era" comments at all. The gentlemen in question were teammates...their careers overlapped for 15 seasons. Certainly while the word "better" is somewhat subjective, it's difficult to make a case for Fedorov having a greater impact on his team(s) or on hockey in general than Steve Yzerman had and is still having.

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10 hours ago, solarion said:

Not getting all these "different era" comments at all. The gentlemen in question were teammates...their careers overlapped for 15 seasons. Certainly while the word "better" is somewhat subjective, it's difficult to make a case for Fedorov having a greater impact on his team(s) or on hockey in general than Steve Yzerman had and is still having.

Better hockey player. Not the intangibles. 

Skills, scoring, defense.

Slap shot, wrist shot, backhand, shootout, speed, passing, defensive attributes etc etc

I think it’s obvious that Yzerman wins the intangibles and leadership battle. Probably beats 99% of hockey players when it comes to that.

 

Edited by kickazz

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Samuelsson was better than both, and lilja was better than lidstrom. Debate over 

On 8/9/2018 at 4:22 PM, Buppy said:

During Yzerman's prime (the 7 years from 87-94) the only players to outscore him were Gretzky and Lemieux. 

Fedorov's peak scoring was from 90-96, when he was 10th. Yzerman was 7th over the same span. 4-year peak from 92-96 he was 6th, and over 3 years he got to 4th. 

Feds peak 3-year period he averaged 1.37 p/g, slightly better than Yzerman's peak 7-years (1.36, adjusted for league scoring average), but below his 3-year peak (1.44).

Scoring-wise Yzerman wins hands down, if only for longevity. In terms of complete game, Fedorov might have an edge, but it's hard to say since it's so difficult to quantify all the other stuff, particularly intangibles like "leadership". 

Fedorov wins hands down defensively. He also wins on creativity and hockey genius. Yzerman wins everything else. Samuelsson was better. 

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14 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

This is one of those debates where there is no wrong answer. I mean if you asked anyone if they could take Y in his prime or Feds, could you find fault with either choice? I would be ecstatic with either one. That's kind of like asking Montana or Elway? 

Sure but Yzerman is better

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15 hours ago, kickazz said:

Better hockey player. Not the intangibles.

Not sure that never giving up on a play is an intangible. I mean Yzerman soundly out scored Fedorov...that's not intangible. It showed up on the scoreboard night after night. Sure Fedorov was a better skater, but did he really have that much better a shot? If he did then how come it didn't relate to a higher goals per game avg?

Yzerman 692g 1514gp = .457 goals/game

Feds 483g 1248gp = .387 goals/game

Perhaps because Fedorov was a great skater and was plainly disinterested at times it's assumed he was more skilled than he was in some regards. Surely he was solid defensively, but Yzerman was no slouch defensively either...as to their shots, I don't know that Sergei's was any better than Stevie's. Frankly, the statistics indicate the opposite may well be the case. Collectively these guys played 2,762 regular season games and after that remarkably large sample size, it's Yzerman and not Fedorov that has the > s% @ 15 vs Fedorov's, still very respectable 12.1. Now that's after > 8500 regular season shots fired...Yzerman scored with more of those shots than Feds. Perhaps because Yzerman did work so hard, his skill is underestimated. Very few players accomplished what he did, and that includes Sergei Fedorov.

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3 hours ago, solarion said:

lol Kinda one of those "I respect your opinion...even though it's WRONG" things.

During the 13 years they played together (and only those years), Yzerman scored 1.13 points per game, and Fedorov scored 1.05 points per game. + Yzerman had the intangibles as talked about in this tread.

Discussion settled. 

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10 hours ago, solarion said:

Not sure that never giving up on a play is an intangible. I mean Yzerman soundly out scored Fedorov...that's not intangible. It showed up on the scoreboard night after night. Sure Fedorov was a better skater, but did he really have that much better a shot? If he did then how come it didn't relate to a higher goals per game avg?

Yzerman 692g 1514gp = .457 goals/game

Feds 483g 1248gp = .387 goals/game

Perhaps because Fedorov was a great skater and was plainly disinterested at times it's assumed he was more skilled than he was in some regards. Surely he was solid defensively, but Yzerman was no slouch defensively either...as to their shots, I don't know that Sergei's was any better than Stevie's. Frankly, the statistics indicate the opposite may well be the case. Collectively these guys played 2,762 regular season games and after that remarkably large sample size, it's Yzerman and not Fedorov that has the > s% @ 15 vs Fedorov's, still very respectable 12.1. Now that's after > 8500 regular season shots fired...Yzerman scored with more of those shots than Feds. Perhaps because Yzerman did work so hard, his skill is underestimated. Very few players accomplished what he did, and that includes Sergei Fedorov.

I actually don’t remember who had the better shot. I want to say Fedorov had the better wrister and Yzerman had the better slap shot. 

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Feds was pretty sneaky with his shot selection that's for sure. He'd leverage his superior skating ability into a higher percentage shot by using defenders as screens and/or disguising his release with his own body...really first rate at that kind of stuff. I suspect also that Fedorov scored more of his goals from further out than Yzerman did as well, though I don't necessarily think of him as having elite accuracy like Shanahan did.

If you went back and watched tape of Yzerman, Shanahan, and Fedorov scoring goals you'd likely notice that Yzerman and Shanahan would rack up goals from somewhat nearer the goal on average and that their shots would beat goalies by being perfectly placed. Sergei's shot on the other hand would often go right by goalies without being tracked, due to his sneaky release.  

Edited by solarion

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47 minutes ago, solarion said:

Feds was pretty sneaky with his shot selection that's for sure. He'd leverage his superior skating ability into a higher percentage shot by using defenders as screens and/or disguising his release with his own body...really first rate at that kind of stuff. I suspect also that Fedorov scored more of his goals from further out than Yzerman did as well, though I don't necessarily think of him as having elite accuracy like Shanahan did.

If you went back and watched tape of Yzerman, Shanahan, and Fedorov scoring goals you'd likely notice that Yzerman and Shanahan would rack up goals from somewhat nearer the goal on average and that their shots would beat goalies by being perfectly placed. Sergei's shot on the other hand would often go right by goalies without being tracked, due to his sneaky release.  

Shanahan, Yzerman, Feds, Hull. Wings never saw those types of shots again. Even the 08 cup team as good as it was, didn’t have those types of shooters.

Zetterberg had an amazing backhand shot tho, Datsyuk had a nifty wrister. 

 

Edited by kickazz

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7 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Shanahan, Yzerman, Feds, Hull. Wings never saw those types of shots again.

Always found it fascinating to note how different players would earn their puppy chow. Yzerman and Shanny shots would often end up just under the crossbar...ya know in that few inch gap a goalie can't cover. lol Hull and his freakish .5 slapper/snapshot that would blow by goalies before they could cross the net...and then guys like Feds that used a combination of speed and skill to put points on the board, often in sneaky fashion. Not just Fedorov either, all of the Russian five seemed particularly adept at sneakiness. They just seemed to think the game better than most of the guys on the ice...particularly Larionov. Loved watching that guy play.  

Definitely lucky to have seen such an amazing collection of skilled players year after year. Pre-cap, the Detroit Red Wings often resembled an all-star team.

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10 hours ago, kickazz said:

I actually don’t remember who had the better shot. I want to say Fedorov had the better wrister and Yzerman had the better slap shot. 

Feds won the hardest shot at the all-star game one year. Really, in terms of pure physical ability and skill, he did almost everything better than almost everyone. But for whatever reason it didn't translate fully to points. Maybe his head, maybe his heart, or maybe just more focus on defense. 

For what it's worth, though the 90s, Feds was +229, Yzerman +164. No good way to judge what effect their linemates had in that, but we did get better on-ice results with Fedorov.

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Ah, so +/- determines which player is "better" then? Good to know.

Guess people will be surprised to hear that Larry Robinson is the greatest hockey player to ever lace up skates. Clearly since Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau had career +/- stats higher than Steve Yzerman, then they were surely better hockey players. BTW, both Jonathan Toews and Joe Thorton have career +/- higher than Yzerman. Better?

+/- is an interesting statistic, but it's more of a team stat than an individual thing. It's affected by any number of variables. Position, offensive/defensive zone stars, linemates, opposition lines, etc all skew the result.

To say nothing of the fact that Fedorov played some dman during his career and +/- tends to favor dmen.

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9 hours ago, solarion said:

Ah, so +/- determines which player is "better" then? Good to know.

Guess people will be surprised to hear that Larry Robinson is the greatest hockey player to ever lace up skates. Clearly since Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau had career +/- stats higher than Steve Yzerman, then they were surely better hockey players. BTW, both Jonathan Toews and Joe Thorton have career +/- higher than Yzerman. Better?

+/- is an interesting statistic, but it's more of a team stat than an individual thing. It's affected by any number of variables. Position, offensive/defensive zone stars, linemates, opposition lines, etc all skew the result.

To say nothing of the fact that Fedorov played some dman during his career and +/- tends to favor dmen.

You may want to re-read what I said. 

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19 hours ago, solarion said:

Ah, so +/- determines which player is "better" then? Good to know.

Guess people will be surprised to hear that Larry Robinson is the greatest hockey player to ever lace up skates. Clearly since Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau had career +/- stats higher than Steve Yzerman, then they were surely better hockey players. BTW, both Jonathan Toews and Joe Thorton have career +/- higher than Yzerman. Better?

+/- is an interesting statistic, but it's more of a team stat than an individual thing. It's affected by any number of variables. Position, offensive/defensive zone stars, linemates, opposition lines, etc all skew the result.

To say nothing of the fact that Fedorov played some dman during his career and +/- tends to favor dmen.

Outside of the board troll, who said this? Buppy's exact words were "for what its worth", hardly an argument that +/- determines which player is better.

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I’m not a fan of the “well Yzerman was always behind Mario and Gretzky” argument. That’s true but Fedorov would be behind both of them as well. If Fedorov played in the mid 80s like Yzerman, I doubt he would be able to outperform Mario and Gretzky. And if Yzerman’s prime was in 94 like Fedorov’s was; I’m willing to bet he would give Fedorov a run for his money. Not to mention their PPG was very similar in that very season; unfortunately Yzerman player only 58 of the games. 3 shorties of Yzerman that season; where’s Feds had 4 in 82 games (also won a Selke ). 

My vote goes to Yzerman for being the overall better player. But purely skills wise, I give the edge to Fedorov. 

Edited by kickazz

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1 hour ago, kickazz said:

I’m not a fan of the “well Yzerman was always behind Mario and Gretzky” argument. That’s true but Fedorov would be behind both of them as well. If Fedorov played in the mid 80s like Yzerman, I doubt he would be able to outperform Mario and Gretzky. And if Yzerman’s prime was in 94 like Fedorov’s was; I’m willing to bet he would give Fedorov a run for his money. Not to mention their PPG was very similar in that very season; unfortunately Yzerman player only 58 of the games. 3 shorties of Yzerman that season; where’s Feds had 4 in 82 games (also won a Selke ). 

My vote goes to Yzerman for being the overall better player. But purely skills wise, I give the edge to Fedorov. 

Another thing that Yzerman's supporters in this argument like to avoid discussing is durability.  Fedorov was an animal and never got hurt.  Yzerman was oft injured, and I remember a few years during the playoffs when we needed him.

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On 8/12/2018 at 4:40 PM, Jonas Mahonas said:

Another thing that Yzerman's supporters in this argument like to avoid discussing is durability.  Fedorov was an animal and never got hurt.  Yzerman was oft injured, and I remember a few years during the playoffs when we needed him.

Simply not true. Stevie was injured more near the end of his career yes but if you look at games played across the careers and subtract 162 games for the extra 2 years stevie played you will see that he still played more games than feds. 

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Yzerman always played "up" to his level of competition. Feds seemed like he played "down" to his. It was almost like he was bored. Like putting an NHL caliber player in the minors, they get bored with the level of competition. If Feds played up to his skill and ability every shift, he would have been in the conversation with the all time greats. As much as I love Stevie, he was always one notch below.

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2 hours ago, Euro_Twins said:

Simply not true. Stevie was injured more near the end of his career yes but if you look at games played across the careers and subtract 162 games for the extra 2 years stevie played you will see that he still played more games than feds. 

Check out the playoff yrs

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2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yzerman always played "up" to his level of competition. Feds seemed like he played "down" to his. It was almost like he was bored. Like putting an NHL caliber player in the minors, they get bored with the level of competition. If Feds played up to his skill and ability every shift, he would have been in the conversation with the all time greats. As much as I love Stevie, he was always one notch below.

Doesn't this statement kind of contradict everything else you just said?... 

 

 

Yzerman was the better all around player, and brought it every shift, every game. Fedorov was the more flashy player, and when he was on, he was one of the best the game's ever seen. If I could have one player in their prime right now, it would be Yzerman and it wouldn't be close. Yzerman doesn't leave a single box unchecked. 

Of course there's probably a bit of a bias from me. Yzerman was my idol as a kid and the reason I'm a Wings fan today. Even to this day, I get people ask me why I'm a Wings fan, and my answer is always the same. "I grew up a huge Yzerman fan". Which always helps them understand how a guy from Eastern Canada, where the population is about 98% Leafs and Habs fans, and 2% other, is a fan of an American based team. Most people always assume, especially when the Wings were the top team in the league every year, that that's the only reason I was a Wings fan, so I explain that I became a Wings fan around 1990, a few years before the Wings became that powerhouse team.

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