11/15 Let's Get This Bread GDT - Red Wings @ Senators - 7:30 PM ET

[LeftWinger 4,963]

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

b b b b but Abdelkader fell down first (and his contract sucks and I hate him)

I definitely saw a draw. Gotta hand it to Tkachuk thou, he's 19 and Abby ain't no small dude. The Tkachuk boys are a couple chips off the ol block. Woulda been nice to have point per game Brady on this team and not -7 in the AHL Zadina.

But we had no chance to draft him. Not like we passed on him for Zadina.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

But we had no chance to draft him. Not like we passed on him for Zadina.

Oh I know. Just saying I think Zadina sucks. I think he's highly overrated based on what I've seen of his play so far. I'm definitely starting to notice why he slipped at the draft.

Maybe he's the next Tatar or Nyquist, but I don't think he's Larkin level at this point, which you kinda hope for from a #5 pick that was once touted as #1 overall.

I'm gonna continue one of my controversial trends here and reiterate that McIsaac was the best player selected in that draft by the Red Wings.

[Dabura 12,207]

Zadina will be fine.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

14 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

b b b b but Abdelkader fell down first (and his contract sucks and I hate him)

I definitely saw a draw. Gotta hand it to Tkachuk thou, he's 19 and Abby ain't no small dude. The Tkachuk boys are a couple chips off the ol block. Woulda been nice to have point per game Brady on this team and not -7 in the AHL Zadina.

There's a reason Zadina and Veleno fell to us.  These guys are projects.  

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh I know. Just saying I think Zadina sucks. I think he's highly overrated based on what I've seen of his play so far. I'm definitely starting to notice why he slipped at the draft.

Maybe he's the next Tatar or Nyquist, but I don't think he's Larkin level at this point, which you kinda hope for from a #5 pick that was once touted as #1 overall.

I'm gonna continue one of my controversial trends here and reiterate that McIsaac was the best player selected in that draft by the Red Wings.

Agree and disagree.

 

While we probably need 5 more Larkins on this team, we definitely need goal scorers too.  Mantha/Zadina/Bertuzzi/Berggren rounds out our LEFT HANDED wingers. Larkin/Athanasiou/Veleno/Cozens for centermen.  ???/???/Frk/??? For RIGHT HANDED wingers.

 

Our big holes to fill right now are right handed scorers and right handed defensemen.

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 11/17/2018 at 4:30 AM, Dabura said:

Zadina will be fine.

Tomas Tatar will have a better career than Filip Zadina

On 11/17/2018 at 6:51 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

There's a reason Zadina and Veleno fell to us.  These guys are projects.  

I don't have a solid opinion on Veleno yet.

[Dabura 12,207]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Tomas Tatar will have a better career than Filip Zadina

18 year old Zadina > 18 year old Tatar

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Tomas Tatar will have a better career than Filip Zadina

You're really pushing the hot takes lately. I'll take this bet all day. Here's my hottish take... Filip Zadina will be closer to Nikita Kucherov (point per game player), than he will be to Tomas Tatar (little better than half a point per game player). Mark it!

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 hours ago, Dabura said:

18 year old Zadina > 18 year old Tatar

 

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You're really pushing the hot takes lately. I'll take this bet all day. Here's my hottish take... Filip Zadina will be closer to Nikita Kucherov (point per game player), than he will be to Tomas Tatar (little better than half a point per game player). Mark it!

Tatar is fitting in very well with Montreal...

There's a reason Zadina dropped in the draft. He was a decent player on a hot streak in his draft year.

The skating just isn't there. It's not horrible or anything, but by comparison Tatar could skate circles around him. His decision making is also questionable. At the current moment he's almost a pure finisher IMO. He often hangs on to the puck for far too long, and when he finally does pass his pass choice too often reminds me of Brendan Smith... Lastly, I think his defensive play was vastly overrated going into the draft. IDK why the mooseheads had him on their PK. He wouldn't have been on my PK by any means... Again, his skating and decision making just aren't good enough to make him a good defensive player.

This guy is Jiri Hudler almost to a T. Average skating, good shot and hands, poor playmaking, average to below average on D.

Sorry to have the downer opinion, but I would start bracing for disappointment now. This kid is certainly not the next Hossa.

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Tatar is fitting in very well with Montreal...

There's a reason Zadina dropped in the draft. He was a decent player on a hot streak in his draft year.

The skating just isn't there. It's not horrible or anything, but by comparison Tatar could skate circles around him. His decision making is also questionable. At the current moment he's almost a pure finisher IMO. He often hangs on to the puck for far too long, and when he finally does pass his pass choice too often reminds me of Brendan Smith... Lastly, I think his defensive play was vastly overrated going into the draft. IDK why the mooseheads had him on their PK. He wouldn't have been on my PK by any means... Again, his skating and decision making just aren't good enough to make him a good defensive player.

This guy is Jiri Hudler almost to a T. Average skating, good shot and hands, poor playmaking, average to below average on D.

Sorry to have the downer opinion, but I would start bracing for disappointment now. This kid is certainly not the next Hossa.

Who the f*** said anything about Hossa? F*** that guy. Zadina is the next Kucherov. Get it straight.

Seriously though, you've made some bold predictions in the past that have been pretty dead on, so I hope this isn't another one of those... I think / hope you'll be dead wrong on this one. Tatar isn't a bad player by any means, but picking 6th overall, you'd hope to get a (borderline) elite talent...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Who the f*** said anything about Hossa? F*** that guy. Zadina is the next Kucherov. Get it straight.

Seriously though, you've made some bold predictions in the past that have been pretty dead on, so I hope this isn't another one of those... I think / hope you'll be dead wrong on this one. Tatar isn't a bad player by any means, but picking 6th overall, you'd hope to get a (borderline) elite talent...

I felt around draft time his best comparison was Hossa. My understanding at that time was he was a goal scoring winger + defensive acumen.

I hope I'm dead wrong too, and to be fair, after some seasoning in the AHL he'll probably be decent. His hands are softer than baby poo. I just don't think he's going to amount to what one would expect of a #6 pick (elite to borderline elite). Maybe he ends up better than Tatar, but even if that happens I still think he ends up in that realm of Tatars, Hudlers, Nyquists... and not the realm of Zbergs, Datsyuks, Hossas, etc.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Tatar is fitting in very well with Montreal...

There's a reason Zadina dropped in the draft. He was a decent player on a hot streak in his draft year.

The skating just isn't there. It's not horrible or anything, but by comparison Tatar could skate circles around him. His decision making is also questionable. At the current moment he's almost a pure finisher IMO. He often hangs on to the puck for far too long, and when he finally does pass his pass choice too often reminds me of Brendan Smith... Lastly, I think his defensive play was vastly overrated going into the draft. IDK why the mooseheads had him on their PK. He wouldn't have been on my PK by any means... Again, his skating and decision making just aren't good enough to make him a good defensive player.

This guy is Jiri Hudler almost to a T. Average skating, good shot and hands, poor playmaking, average to below average on D.

Sorry to have the downer opinion, but I would start bracing for disappointment now. This kid is certainly not the next Hossa.

• He's 18 years old.
• His skating is fine and will improve.
• His non-goal-scoring game is actually pretty good for someone who's billed as a pure sniper. I said as much pre-draft, scouts said as much pre-draft, Blashill has said as much post-training camp.
• He's 18 years old.
• You're trolling and I don't know why I'm taking the bait.

[F.Michael 4,590]

18 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I felt around draft time his best comparison was Hossa. My understanding at that time was he was a goal scoring winger + defensive acumen.

I hope I'm dead wrong too, and to be fair, after some seasoning in the AHL he'll probably be decent. His hands are softer than baby poo. I just don't think he's going to amount to what one would expect of a #6 pick (elite to borderline elite). Maybe he ends up better than Tatar, but even if that happens I still think he ends up in that realm of Tatars, Hudlers, Nyquists... and not the realm of Zbergs, Datsyuks, Hossas, etc.

I look at it this way...If he 'dominates' at the AHL level then he'll likely be a well above average NHL'er (maybe a star player)...But if he struggles in GR - then he'll be average at best in the 'bigs' (maybe even borderline NHL'er).

 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I look at it this way...If he 'dominates' at the AHL level then he'll likely be a well above average NHL'er (maybe a star player)...But if he struggles in GR - then he'll be average at best in the 'bigs' (maybe even borderline NHL'er).

 

Not necessarily. There are a lot of guys who are really good at the AHL level and fail at the NHL level because there talent literally stops at the border.. Also, there are guys who don't look great in the AHL, but who succeed in the NHL because they are "bored" with the lesser talent in the AHL and playing at the NHL level actually pushes them and brings their game up.

[F.Michael 4,590]

5 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Not necessarily. There are a lot of guys who are really good at the AHL level and fail at the NHL level because there talent literally stops at the border.. Also, there are guys who don't look great in the AHL, but who succeed in the NHL because they are "bored" with the lesser talent in the AHL and playing at the NHL level actually pushes them and brings their game up.

True - however I believe that there's a greater % of those who do well at the AHL level that go on to having a good NHL career than those who do 'ok', or 'average' at the AHL level, and have a solid NHL career.

Either way - I'm hoping (praying) that Zads does great at the NHL level.

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I look at it this way...If he 'dominates' at the AHL level then he'll likely be a well above average NHL'er (maybe a star player)...But if he struggles in GR - then he'll be average at best in the 'bigs' (maybe even borderline NHL'er).

25 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Not necessarily. There are a lot of guys who are really good at the AHL level and fail at the NHL level because there talent literally stops at the border.. Also, there are guys who don't look great in the AHL, but who succeed in the NHL because they are "bored" with the lesser talent in the AHL and playing at the NHL level actually pushes them and brings their game up.

17 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

True - however I believe that there's a greater % of those who do well at the AHL level that go on to having a good NHL career than those who do 'ok', or 'average' at the AHL level, and have a solid NHL career.

Either way - I'm hoping (praying) that Zads does great at the NHL level.

I think this may be true for the most part of young (18-19 year olds), but can go either way when looking at prospects that are a little older (21-22 year olds).

Zadina is still only 18 years old (will be 19 in a week from today), so the fact that he is near a point per game (6 points, 4 goals, 2 assists in his last 7 games) bodes well for him becoming the player we all think he can be. Like I've said a few times now, if Zadina goes to the WJC next month and once again, dominate there, I think he will go back to GR and continue his upward trajectory and become a point per game player in his first pro season. I don't think anyone should be concerned with Zadina at this point.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Why doesnt CRL use his Jr. MOD status and move this thread to the GDT Subforum where it belongs. It's from like 2 games ago.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Why doesnt CRL use his Jr. MOD status and move this thread to the GDT Subforum where it belongs. It's from like 2 games ago.

Because I'm chaotic neutral. Learn your role.

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

This has gotta be a troll. The kid is 18, his body isn't even done developing yet. I don't think that since he's not ripping apart the AHL in his first 16 games as a pro suddenly everybody was dead wrong about him. I've watched almost every Griffins game, he just looks young. Also I don't think it can be considered a hot streak if it lasts the entire season, he was the best rookie in his league in every category. 

It feels to me like the McDavids and Matthews of the world have skewed our expectations of prospect development. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

9 minutes ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

This has gotta be a troll. The kid is 18, his body isn't even done developing yet. I don't think that since he's not ripping apart the AHL in his first 16 games as a pro suddenly everybody was dead wrong about him. I've watched almost every Griffins game, he just looks young. Also I don't think it can be considered a hot streak if it lasts the entire season, he was the best rookie in his league in every category. 

It feels to me like the McDavids and Matthews of the world have skewed our expectations of prospect development. 

I'm just laying the groundwork for my "told ya so" later

I'll start with this: Yes, he was the best rookie in the league in every category, and justly he was ranked #1 or #2 for much of the year. So when he fell to us at #6 there was much rejoicing. This led to the summer hype of him making the team out the gate or at least dominating the AHL. He's not on this team and he's not dominating the AHL, so that's the premise I'm approaching this from.

I 100% agree he looks young. He looks like - not like a deer in headlights - but a young player who's quickly realizing how much faster the pro game is. Defenders are closing on him quickly and he no longer has the time and space he once had to do his thang. This does not worry me. He's one of very few players to join the AHL at such a young age, is very gifted, and I'm confident he'll adapt.

My concern is more about his play style. IMO his foot speed is average and his IQ in the cycle is average. This leads me to fear he ends up more like a trigger-man and essentially more one-dimensional than originally anticipated. Perhaps more engaged than the perimeter player that Hudler was, but the same role.

Anyway, if you've been watching him as well let me know what you think.

He's going to be an NHLer despite my criticisms, and I still hope he's the next Kucherov... just bracing for him maybe not being that...

[krsmith17 7,191]

26 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm just laying the groundwork for my "told ya so" later

I'll start with this: Yes, he was the best rookie in the league in every category, and justly he was ranked #1 or #2 for much of the year. So when he fell to us at #6 there was much rejoicing. This led to the summer hype of him making the team out the gate or at least dominating the AHL. He's not on this team and he's not dominating the AHL, so that's the premise I'm approaching this from.

I 100% agree he looks young. He looks like - not like a deer in headlights - but a young player who's quickly realizing how much faster the pro game is. Defenders are closing on him quickly and he no longer has the time and space he once had to do his thang. This does not worry me. He's one of very few players to join the AHL at such a young age, is very gifted, and I'm confident he'll adapt.

My concern is more about his play style. IMO his foot speed is average and his IQ in the cycle is average. This leads me to fear he ends up more like a trigger-man and essentially more one-dimensional than originally anticipated. Perhaps more engaged than the perimeter player that Hudler was, but the same role.

Anyway, if you've been watching him as well let me know what you think.

He's going to be an NHLer despite my criticisms, and I still hope he's the next Kucherov... just bracing for him maybe not being that...

Taking the frankgrimes approach, I see...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Taking the frankgrimes approach, I see...

Crap I can't remember what he called it. Pleasant surprises? Happy surprises?

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

59 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm just laying the groundwork for my "told ya so" later

I'll start with this: Yes, he was the best rookie in the league in every category, and justly he was ranked #1 or #2 for much of the year. So when he fell to us at #6 there was much rejoicing. This led to the summer hype of him making the team out the gate or at least dominating the AHL. He's not on this team and he's not dominating the AHL, so that's the premise I'm approaching this from.

I 100% agree he looks young. He looks like - not like a deer in headlights - but a young player who's quickly realizing how much faster the pro game is. Defenders are closing on him quickly and he no longer has the time and space he once had to do his thang. This does not worry me. He's one of very few players to join the AHL at such a young age, is very gifted, and I'm confident he'll adapt.

My concern is more about his play style. IMO his foot speed is average and his IQ in the cycle is average. This leads me to fear he ends up more like a trigger-man and essentially more one-dimensional than originally anticipated. Perhaps more engaged than the perimeter player that Hudler was, but the same role.

Anyway, if you've been watching him as well let me know what you think.

He's going to be an NHLer despite my criticisms, and I still hope he's the next Kucherov... just bracing for him maybe not being that...

Let me preface this by saying that becoming a player like Kucherov is a tall order for anyone, dude is exceptional and there are very few players in the league who can drive the play from the wing like that. That being said I also agree that his foot speed is average, however I think his edge work is well above average and I expect his overall speed to develop a bit as he strengthens his lower half as well. It's not like we're looking at a poor skater here.

I disagree on the IQ part, when he's confident he has space it looks to me like he knows how to make the right play. The issue I see is that he still just isn't recognizing when he has time or doesn't have time yet and that leads to some panic passes, but I see this changing as he adapts and gains some confidence. 

I'm not saying he's a guaranteed elite player or anything, my point is simply that it's too early to adjust predraft expectations. Then again, maybe you thought all of this before we even drafted him, I'm not sure.

I'm totally with you on the bolded, expectations should always be tempered with players this young IMO. He has the tools though, and seems to have the right attitude, so I'm optimistic nonetheless. Then again, maybe my definition for success with him comes at a lower standard than other's. I can live with the fact that he may not be a future HOFer like Hossa or 100 point guy like Kucherov (even if it's too early to tell). 

 

edit: As for the first bolded; I appreciate your advanced preparation and am equally prepared to be so salty if it happens. There will be lots of screeching and backtracking. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Wheelchairsuperhero

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

Let me preface this by saying that becoming a player like Kucherov is a tall order for anyone, dude is exceptional and there are very few players in the league who can drive the play from the wing like that. That being said I also agree that his foot speed is average, however I think his edge work is well above average and I expect his overall speed to develop a bit as he strengthens his lower half as well. It's not like we're looking at a poor skater here.

I disagree on the IQ part, when he's confident he has space it looks to me like he knows how to make the right play. The issue I see is that he still just isn't recognizing when he has time or doesn't have time yet and that leads to some panic passes, but I see this changing as he adapts and gains some confidence. 

I'm not saying he's a guaranteed elite player or anything, my point is simply that it's too early to adjust predraft expectations. Then again, maybe you thought all of this before we even drafted him, I'm not sure.

I'm totally with you on the bolded, expectations should always be tempered with players this young IMO. He has the tools though, and seems to have the right attitude, so I'm optimistic nonetheless. Then again, maybe my definition for success with him comes at a lower standard than other's. I can live with the fact that he may not be a future HOFer like Hossa or 100 point guy like Kucherov (even if it's too early to tell). 

His foot work/edge work is superb, the speed just isn't there.

Panic passes is basically what I meant. He needs to stop that.

I didn't think any of this before the draft

I'll admit I'm being hyper-critical, but I do enjoy the discussion that stimulates

 

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

His foot work/edge work is superb, the speed just isn't there.

Panic passes is basically what I meant. He needs to stop that.

I didn't think any of this before the draft

I'll admit I'm being hyper-critical, but I do enjoy the discussion that stimulates

 

I get it, someone's gotta keep the board afloat.

You're the hero LGW deserves, but not the one it needs. So we'll hunt you, because you can take it. Because you're not our hero, but a silent guardian, a watchful protector.

Feel free to quote me, I definitely just made that up.