Report: Detroit to name Steve Yzerman as GM

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 4/29/2019 at 1:50 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

I'd like to add Panarin.  We need a good righty.

Vanek.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

14 hours ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

I think that's a massive oversimplification. I'll grant you that the FO wanted to keep the streak alive, hell, I wanted to keep it going as well but not in the expense of mortgaging the future. Regardless of the long-term goals of the franchise, contracts are obviously very different and the team could look VERY different based on a lot of different factors. I think we have a lot of terrible contracts. I don't see Tampa Bay with many...

Agreed. The future was mortgaged for the sake of the streak. I don't blame Holland for that tho.

There is a difference between a bad signing and a bad contract. I dont think that any of Abby, Nielsen, Vanek, Green or Daley were bad siginings. All were brought in or re-signed to fill specific roles the team was lacking. Their contracts, on the other hand, are where one could fairly criticize Holland. They are all either too long in term or too high in salary, or both.

Helm is rhe only one on the team now that I would consider a bad signing. He was easily replacable and redundant. And now he is also overpaid.

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Vanek.

[Dabura 12,207]

10 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Vanek.

No.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

 

6 minutes ago, Dabura said:

No.

Glad you both got ur morning coffee spit take.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Glad you both got ur morning coffee spit take.

I'm a simple man; I hear the name Vanek, I spit my coffee.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Agreed. The future was mortgaged for the sake of the streak. I don't blame Holland for that tho.

There is a difference between a bad signing and a bad contract. I dont think that any of Abby, Nielsen, Vanek, Green or Daley were bad siginings. All were brought in or re-signed to fill specific roles the team was lacking. Their contracts, on the other hand, are where one could fairly criticize Holland. They are all either too long in term or too high in salary, or both.

Helm is rhe only one on the team now that I would consider a bad signing. He was easily replacable and redundant. And now he is also overpaid.

I disagree on a few...

Abdelkader - Good signing. Worst contract in the league. Way too much money ($2.5-3M too much) and term (3-4 years too long).

Helm - Good signing. Bad contract. Too much money ($1.5-2M too much) and term (2-3 years too long).

Nielsen - Understandable signing. Bad contract. Maybe a little too much money ($1-1.5M too much) and term (2-3 years too long).

Vanek - Good signing first time. Bad signing second time. Terrible signing if there's a third time. Reasonable contracts.

Green - Great signing. Good contract.

Daley - Terrible signing. Reasonable contract.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree on a few...

Abdelkader - Good signing. Worst contract in the league. Way too much money ($2.5-3M too much) and term (3-4 years too long).

Helm - Good signing. Bad contract. Too much money ($1.5-2M too much) and term (2-3 years too long).

Nielsen - Understandable signing. Bad contract. Maybe a little too much money ($1-1.5M too much) and term (2-3 years too long).

Vanek - Good signing first time. Bad signing second time. Terrible signing if there's a third time. Reasonable contracts.

Green - Great signing. Good contract.

Daley - Terrible signing. Reasonable contract.

Larkin - best signing EVER. 

AA - great signing.

 

I will be interested to see what YzerGM needs to cough up next time around for these guys.  I'd go 8/44 for AA and 8/68 for Larkin.  These boys are good.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Who would rather sign Vanek or Karlsson?

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Who would rather sign Vanek or Karlsson?

If it's Vanek for 1 year, $2M or Karlsson for 7 years, $80M, Vanek for sure.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

25 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Who would rather sign Vanek or Karlsson?

Karlsson

Would you rather drink Carlsberg, eat Carl's Jr, or sign Karlsson?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Karlsson

Would you rather drink Carlsberg, eat Carl's Jr, or sign Karlsson?

Seize the memes of production with Karl

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Seize the memes of production with Karl

Would you rather seize memes, eat sees candy, or sail the high seas?

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Would you rather drink Carlsberg, eat Carl's Jr, or sign Karlsson?

Drink a Carlsberg while eating Carl's Jr.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

Drink a Carlsberg while eating Carl's Jr.

Right?!!

[kickazz 5,459]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Again with the prime years... A player's prime in today's NHL is around 23-28 give or take. Both Karlsson and Panarin will be 28 at the start of next season. 

 

So according to you Larkin, AA, Mantha and Bertuzzi are now in their prime. My point exactly lets get them some free agents to push for the playoffs and cup before we waste them away. We have 4 young players in their prime and they could use the help of a hall of famer defensemen in Karlsson and an elite forward like Panarin who both have experience and are two of the best in the NHL. 

Do you want to waste away those 4 guys' prime years? Remember that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were consistently making players in the early and mid 20s and finally won that cup at 27 and 29. At this rate none of your young players in the prime have even made it to the playoffs (except Larkin for a couple of games when he was 19). 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I didn't say anything about 40, so I'm not sure where that is coming from, but with the league continuously getting younger, 35 is getting close to what 40 was 10+ years ago.

Are you kidding me? 35 is getting close to what 40 was? . The 35 year old defensemen happen to be the best in the league currently. 

Go check the top 5 performing defensemen in the league

1. Brett Burns - age 33

2. Mark Giordano - age 35

3. Morgan Rielly - age 24

4. John Carson - age 28

5. Keith Yandle - age 32

 

4 of the 5 best defensemen in the league at age 28+. Defensemen primes have ALWAYS been later. Go look up how many points and Norris Trophys Lidstrom was racking up in his 30s. And look at the above list one more time with Burns, Giordano, Yandle. 

There's more from this year.

Kris Letang age 31

Victor Hedman age 28 

Ryan Suter age 33 - played all 82 games, 47 points 26+ minutes a game (have any of our young defensemen sniffed 26 minutes on average? lol)

Duncan Keith age 35 - played all 82 games, 40 points, 23+ minutes a game (still higher than any of our defensemen currently)

Btw Erik Karlsson is better than everyone on this list except maybe Brett Burns and Hedman.

I'm appalled at people putting Karlsson down over 2 "big" injuries (ankle + groin), big whoop. This guy is a guaranteed hall of famer, probably one of the best offensive defensemen in the last 2 decades, he's persevered. I'd throw all the money at him if we can at least get 4-5 good years out of him If the last 2 or 3 of his years suck so what? At least you got some great Karlsson hall of famer-ish years. 

You guys are changing your narrative for Erik Karlsson. I know for a fact that you and others here have constantly said "defensemen age better than forwards, defensemen primes tend to be later"

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by kickazz

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

5 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Are you kidding me? 35 is getting close to what 40 was? . The 35 year old defensemen happen to be the best in the league currently. 

Go check the top 5 performing defensemen in the league

1. Brett Burns - age 33

2. Mark Giordano - age 35

3. Morgan Rielly - age 24

4. John Carson - age 28

5. Keith Yandle - age 32

 

4 of the 5 best defensemen in the league at age 28+. Defensemen primes have ALWAYS been later. Go look up how many points and Norris Trophys Lidstrom was racking up in his 30s. And look at the above list one more time with Burns, Giordano, Yandle. 

There's more from this year.

Kris Letang age 31

Victor Hedman age 28 (and he's not slowing down anytime soon)

Ryan Suter age 33 - played all 82 games, 47 points 26+ minutes a game (have any of our young defensemen sniffed 26 minutes on average? lol)

Duncan Keith age 35 - played all 82 games, 40 points, 23+ minutes a game (still higher than any of our defensemen currently)

Btw Erik Karlsson is better than everyone on this list except maybe Brett Burns and Hedman.

I'm appalled at people putting Karlsson down over chronic 2 injuries (ankle + groin), big whoop. This guy is a guaranteed hall of famer, probably one of the best offensive defensemen in the last 2 decades, he's persevered. I'd throw all the money at him if we can at least get 4-5 good years out of him If the last 2 or 3 of his years suck so what? At least you got some great Karlsson hall of famer-ish years. 

You guys are changing your narrative for Erik Karlsson. I know for a fact that you and others here have constantly said "defensemen age better than forwards, defensemen primes tend to be later"

 

Too bad none of our current defensemen are better in their 30's.    

[kickazz 5,459]

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Too bad none of our current defensemen are better in their 30's.    

It boggles my mind that people wanted Mike Green back after a neck injury and history of liver infection/disease he has (guy only ended up playing 43 games so signing him was pointless anyways) but Erik Karlsson who is probably 3 times the player Green is; is too much because he had a booboo in his groin this year and something about an ankle injury that was fixed in 2017 almost 2 years ago. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

The current guys "can't even make the playoffs" because we're rebuilding... No one was expecting this team to come close to the playoffs, and they won't until they get some help. I'm of the opinion that we should continue to draft and develop until we're a little closer, and THEN go for a big name free agent or two that 'puts us over the top', not that 'gets us over the hump'...

The bolded is exactly why we shouldn't go after big name free agents. Bad teams need to think long-term, not short-term, which is what I believe Karlsson and Panarin would be.

Adding Karlsson and Panarin, may get us in the playoffs (over the hump), but it doesn't get us close to being a Cup contender (over the top). So we make the playoffs for a few seasons, continue drafting good, not great players in the middle of the 1st round, and in 3-5 years when Karlsson and Panarin start to decline, we're left with two albatross contracts, and a mediocre team...

I think we're two very good (2019 / 2020) drafts away from turning the corner. One more down season, and we get close or make the playoffs in 2020-21.

 

Do you actually think the current guys aren't giving it their all to make the playoffs? Rebuild or not, this is what their performance at their best is. Aka theyre still the 4th worst team or whatever. We didn't get the 1st pick, and we likely won't get it next year either so waiting until 2020 for a miracle is dumb. I'm all for continuing the build, but if a young hall of famer free agent is available you jump all over it every single time. Not only for the sake of winning the cup but also for marketing reasons and revenue. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by kickazz

[gcom007 1,465]

9 minutes ago, kickazz said:

It boggles my mind that people wanted Mike Green back after a neck injury and history of liver infection/disease he has (guy only ended up playing 43 games so signing him was pointless anyways) but Erik Karlsson who is probably 3 times the player Green is; is too much because he had a booboo in his groin this year and something about an ankle injury that was fixed in 2017 almost 2 years ago. 

I mean, I’ll fully admit I’d probably be excited if we got him. It’s hard to explain why in completely tangible terms, but I have a bad feeling about the idea though. Maybe it’s just our luck with free agent D in the past. It’s gone south on us a fair number of times, or simply not worked out leading to disappointment. 

[kickazz 5,459]

1 minute ago, gcom007 said:

I mean, I’ll fully admit I’d probably be excited if we got him. It’s hard to explain why in completely tangible terms, but I have a bad feeling about the idea though. Maybe it’s just our luck with free agent D in the past. It’s gone south on us a fair number of times, or simply not worked out leading to disappointment. 

I respect this ^

I get that it's tricky and I get that he's had injuries in the past. But even getting a bunch of good years with him that could push us into cup contention is a chance you just don't miss out on. No GM would. 

I'm a bit tired of this Ken Holland "safe approach" mentality that seems to be rubbing off on the fans. We need changes and hopefully Yzerman can deliver. I won't be mad if he doesn't right away (although can't say the same about others). But I believe with Yzerman we have a better chance at it than Holland. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

57 minutes ago, kickazz said:

So according to you Larkin, AA, Mantha and Bertuzzi are now in their prime. My point exactly lets get them some free agents to push for the playoffs and cup before we waste them away. We have 4 young players in their prime and they could use the help of a hall of famer defensemen in Karlsson and an elite forward like Panarin who both have experience and are two of the best in the NHL. 

Do you want to waste away those 4 guys' prime years? Remember than Datsyuk and Zetterberg were consistently making players in the early and mid 20s and finally won that cup at 27 and 29. At this rate none of your young players in the prime have even made it to the playoffs (except Larkin for a couple of games when he was 19). 

We're not "wasting them away"... Larkin (22), Mantha (24), Athanasiou (24), Bertuzzi (24), Rasmussen (20), Zadina (19), 2019 1st round pick (18), Hronek (21), Cholowski (21), Bowey (24) is a very young core. Continue to add to that, and when Larkin, Zadina, Hronek, Cholowski, and whoever we pick 6th overall in this year's draft are all in their prime in a year or two from now, that's when you add a big name free agent or two.

44 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Are you kidding me? 35 is getting close to what 40 was? . The 35 year old defensemen happen to be the best in the league currently. 

Go check the top 5 performing defensemen in the league

1. Brett Burns - age 33

2. Mark Giordano - age 35

3. Morgan Rielly - age 24

4. John Carson - age 28

5. Keith Yandle - age 32

4 of the 5 best defensemen in the league at age 28+. Defensemen primes have ALWAYS been later. Go look up how many points and Norris Trophys Lidstrom was racking up in his 30s. And look at the above list one more time with Burns, Giordano, Yandle. 

There's more from this year.

Kris Letang age 31

Victor Hedman age 28 

Ryan Suter age 33 - played all 82 games, 47 points 26+ minutes a game (have any of our young defensemen sniffed 26 minutes on average? lol)

Duncan Keith age 35 - played all 82 games, 40 points, 23+ minutes a game (still higher than any of our defensemen currently)

Btw Erik Karlsson is better than everyone on this list except maybe Brett Burns and Hedman.

I'm appalled at people putting Karlsson down over 2 "big" injuries (ankle + groin), big whoop. This guy is a guaranteed hall of famer, probably one of the best offensive defensemen in the last 2 decades, he's persevered. I'd throw all the money at him if we can at least get 4-5 good years out of him If the last 2 or 3 of his years suck so what? At least you got some great Karlsson hall of famer-ish years. 

You guys are changing your narrative for Erik Karlsson. I know for a fact that you and others here have constantly said "defensemen age better than forwards, defensemen primes tend to be later"

I'm not arguing that defensemen prime is later than forwards. I agree with that.

"The 35 year old defensemen happen to be the best in the league currently."

Proceeds to name one good 35 year old defenseman...

Fact is there are only 14 defensemen in the league that are 35+. Only 7 are 36+. Aside from 2 or 3, the rest suck. 10 years ago, that number was doubled. The league is getting younger. That goes for average age entering the league, average age prime years, and average age retiring.

I'm not saying there are no good 35+ defenseman, I'm saying that number is dwindling. Add in some key injuries and the chance of Karlsson being worth close to $12M between the ages of 32-35 I would say is slim. Then factor in this team likely not being a legit contender while Karlsson is still on top of his game, it makes no sense to sign him.

Karlsson is a future Hall of Famer. That doesn't mean we must sign him. You know who else were future Hall of Famers? Cam Neely and Pavel Bure. Both retired in their early 30's because of knee / groin, among other injuries.

Anyway, agree to disagree on this. You want 4-5 good years out of Karlsson, which you'd probably get, but fail to recognize that this team likely wouldn't win a Cup in that time. You acknowledge that he might suck for the final 2-3 years, but fail to recognize the negative impact that will have on the team and the cap situation.

35 minutes ago, kickazz said:

It boggles my mind that people wanted Mike Green back after a neck injury and history of liver infection/disease he has (guy only ended up playing 43 games so signing him was pointless anyways) but Erik Karlsson who is probably 3 times the player Green is; is too much because he had a booboo in his groin this year and something about an ankle injury that was fixed in 2017 almost 2 years ago. 

I guarantee you, not a single person would have wanted Mike Green for max term / max salary...

I acknowledge that Trouba isn't half the player Karlsson is (offensively), but I'd still take him at half the salary if the option were there. I don't think a single defenseman in the league is worth $12M, but certainly not one closing on his prime years with injury concerns...

29 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Do you actually think the current guys aren't giving it their all to make the playoffs? Rebuild or not, this is what their performance at their best is. Aka theyre still the 4th worst team or whatever. We didn't get the 1st pick, and we likely won't get it next year either so waiting until 2020 for a miracle is dumb. I'm all for continuing the build, but if a young hall of famer free agent is available you jump all over it every single time. Not only for the sake of winning the cup but also for marketing reasons and revenue. 

Where did I say they didn't give it their all to make the playoffs???

We don't need a miracle. Sure, a top 1 or 2 pick would put the rebuild ahead of schedule, but so could a top 5-10 pick

Karlsson is NOT young... He's not old either, but he will be by the time this team is ready to compete for a Stanley Cup...

[kickazz 5,459]

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We're not "wasting them away"... Larkin (22), Mantha (24), Athanasiou (24), Bertuzzi (24), Rasmussen (20), Zadina (19), 2019 1st round pick (18), Hronek (21), Cholowski (21), Bowey (24) is a very young core. Continue to add to that, and when Larkin, Zadina, Hronek, Cholowski, and whoever we pick 6th overall in this year's draft are all in their prime in a year or two from now, that's when you add a big name free agent or two.

A year or two from now? What difference does one year or two years make between now. Karlsson is available now, not in 1 or 2 years. You sign him now and in "a year or two" like you said, he'd still be here. You're picking at straws for arguments sake. 

Also the guy we get in at 6th will not be in his prime because he'll be 18 now and in two years 20 and according to you prime doesn't start till 23. 

Your timeline is off, you want to wait 1-2 years, to me that makes no difference; we're never going to catch all of them in their primes. What's for sure at the moment though is that there's a Panarin and Karlsson available. So go get em. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

30 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

 

I'm not arguing that defensemen prime is later than forwards. I agree with that.

"The 35 year old defensemen happen to be the best in the league currently."

Proceeds to name one good 35 year old defenseman...

 

You said 35 is the new 40 lol. You also said that a players prime is 23-28 in a previous post. Now you're saying you agree that a defensemen prime is later. So either you agree with that or don't. See your quote below. 

 

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

  6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Again with the prime years... A player's prime in today's NHL is around 23-28 give or take. Both Karlsson and Panarin will be 28 at the start of next season. 

So what is it? Is a defensemen's prime later? 

Because from what I'm seeing on the top defensemen in the league, the top defenders are in their 30s and some in the 28+ region. Out of the window of 23-28 that you listed.

Burns, Giardano, Yandle, Hedman, Carson, Doughty, go further down the list and you have Suter, Keith. 

One of Kronwall's best seasons came when he was 34 btw. 

To put it bluntly. I think the prime age 23-28 theory is bulls*** and doesn't apply for defenders. From what I'm seeing, D-men; especially high end talent (which includes the likes of Burns, Karlssons, Doughtys and Keiths and Suters) can perform extremely well into their late 20s and early to mid 30s (and even win Norris Trophies). 

If this was about signing Kyle Quincy at age 28 it would be one thing, but a talent like Karlsson at 28 another story. 

Just think about it, Karlsson as injured as he was this year had 42 assists in just 45 games played! The guy is an offensive beast even through injury. Definitely consider him.

Edited April 30, 2019 by kickazz