2020 Trade Deadline Thread (aka Veleno vs Rasmussen vs Fabbri vs Zadina)

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

Just now, kipwinger said:

What's that have to do with anything?  Duchene requested a trade out of Colorado.  He was getting traded with or without MacKinnon and he STILL got that kind of return. 

It's a lot easier to trade away your 2C when you have a budding superstar as your 1C. 

Maybe I just don't see your point. 

Sakic is awesome because he traded someone who didn't want to be on the team, so now Yzerman should do this even though his situation isn't the same? 

[marcaractac 3,963]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Fun Fact: After the Colorado Avalanche posted a era worst 22 win season in 2017 they got creative and traded one of their best young players (Duchene) in a three way deal with Ottawa and Nashville, which yielded them (among other things):

1st (Bowen Byram)

2nd (Traded for starting goalie Philipp Grubaur)

Samual Girard (.5 ppg defenseman)

Shane Bowers (top prospect for the organization)

Vladislav Kamanev (top prospect for the organization)

 

They also did this when they already had the likes of MacKinnon on their roster. I think this team will be easier to evaluate after a couple more drafts, as far as trading current core players goes. I do agree that difficult/unpopular moves have to be made, but there isn't any urgency to do it right this moment. Once it's known what we'll get with the next couple first overall picks, it'll paint a much clearer picture of which of the current roster will become expendable. 

Mantha is a good example. As good as he may be, he'll be much older than the core of the team once we're competitive again. He is probably the one guy that is the exception to what I said above. But even then I think his stock will still rise in the next year or two. Get some term on hime, and sell high. Same applies to Bertuzzi & Fabbri, really. Love both players, but they'll be 30/31 before we begin to compete again.

Hronek and Larkin IMO are the two safest guys on the roster. Hronek because of the development of dmen can take longer, and Larkin because he is legit our only good center. Zadina falls in this category as well due to his age/potential. Give it a couple drafts, and maybe things change for one or two of these guys.  

In the end, I have little opinion of how this season went as far as asset management goes based on it being a big assessment year. I do expect to see heart breaking trades over the next 1-3 years, however.  

[kipwinger 8,524]

6 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

It's a lot easier to trade away your 2C when you have a budding superstar as your 1C. 

Maybe I just don't see your point. 

Sakic is awesome because he traded someone who didn't want to be on the team, so now Yzerman should do this even though his situation isn't the same? 

1: He wasn't a budding superstar at that point and people were actually criticizing him for not being able to take his game to the next level.  Literally nobody anticipated he'd drop 97 points the next season.

2: But even if that's the case, trading a Mantha is pretty easy when you've got Zadina, Veleno, Rasmussen, and a top 4 pick coming up in this year's draft.  Not like we're absent options as well. 

3: My point is, trading good players gets good returns.  Trading mediocre players gets mediocre returns.  We have good players to trade.

Edited February 25, 2020 by kipwinger

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

1: He wasn't a budding superstar at that point and people were actually criticizing him for not being able to take his game to the next level.  Literally nobody anticipated he'd drop 97 points the next season.

2: My point is, trading good players gets good returns.  Trading mediocre players gets mediocre returns.  We have good players to trade.

We do yes. I think the time is coming. But not yet. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

23 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

They also did this when they already had the likes of MacKinnon on their roster. I think this team will be easier to evaluate after a couple more drafts, as far as trading current core players goes. I do agree that difficult/unpopular moves have to be made, but there isn't any urgency to do it right this moment. Once it's known what we'll get with the next couple first overall picks, it'll paint a much clearer picture of which of the current roster will become expendable. 

Mantha is a good example. As good as he may be, he'll be much older than the core of the team once we're competitive again. He is probably the one guy that is the exception to what I said above. But even then I think his stock will still rise in the next year or two. Get some term on hime, and sell high. Same applies to Bertuzzi & Fabbri, really. Love both players, but they'll be 30/31 before we begin to compete again.

Hronek and Larkin IMO are the two safest guys on the roster. Hronek because of the development of dmen can take longer, and Larkin because he is legit our only good center. Zadina falls in this category as well due to his age/potential. Give it a couple drafts, and maybe things change for one or two of these guys.  

In the end, I have little opinion of how this season went as far as asset management goes based on it being a big assessment year. I do expect to see heart breaking trades over the next 1-3 years, however.  

1. See above: MacKinnon had nothing to do with the Duchene trade. 

2.  Assuming they pick somewhere between 6-10, I'd offer Mantha and a 2nd (not the 32nd overall though) to Montreal for their 1st round pick, Romanov, and Cayden Primeau prior to the draft. Thus we'd have a top four, a top 12, an elite goalie prospect, a top left D prospect, and two second rounders coming into our system this offseason.

3.  I agree with the bold.

4. It's only an "assessment year" because Yzerman said that's what he's doing and nobody wants to question him.  Plenty of other GMs actually do something of substance the first year they're on the job.  The whole "shake things up" approach ya know. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by kipwinger

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

2: But even if that's the case, trading a Mantha is pretty easy when you've got Zadina, Veleno, Rasmussen, and a top 4 pick coming up in this year's draft.  Not like we're absent options as well. 

 

Agreed. I'd trade Mantha yesterday. For this reason. Larkin not so much for equally obvious reasons, 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Athanasiou was the oldest of the failing core and needed to go for a variety of reasons

Next up is Mantha. He'll be 25 going into the season. I am not particularly interested in selling young 6'5" 240lb scorers, but I will probably have just about no tolerance for him next season. He needs to stay healthy AND have a dominant season if he's gonna stay on this team. I'm talking 30+ goals and 70+ pts. If he falls short of that at 25 and 300 games played, it's time to go. We could get a sizeable haul for him.

As far his contract goes, IDK really. Probably just give him 5 years and take him to 30.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

1. See above: MacKinnon had nothing to do with the Duchene trade. 

2.  Assuming they pick somewhere between 6-12, I'd offer Mantha and a 2nd to Montreal for their 1st round pick, Romanov, and Cayden Primeau prior to the draft.

3.  I agree with the bold.

4. It's only an "assessment year" because Yzerman said that's what he's doing and nobody wants to question him.  Plenty of other GMs actually do something of substance the first year they're on the job.  The whole "shake things up" approach ya know. 

1. I understand that. We simply do not have a Duchene to trade. If we traded Larkin (our only comparable), we have no center. That's bad s***. Regardless, the 2021 draft is the soonest we should be moving our good players. Who becomes expendable all hinges upon who is brought in. 

2. I have little doubt we go top 5 again next draft. Certainly not against trading Mantha at that time. Same goes for any winger not named Lafreneier. Zadina can prove himself untouchable with a big season, due to his younger age.

4. I mean, sure. But those are the expectations set, which is why I personally feel zero reason to be upset about anything outside of getting ripped off in a trade, which I do not feel happened. Would have been nice to have moved AA last summer instead, but that's hindsight. 

Over the next calendar year, I'll be content with a great draft and the product on the ice getting far younger. Helm and disney.com are interesting deadline pieces for next season. Mantha's stock will only likely increase after another year. If someone offers a king's ransom for him at the trade deadline, then by all means... Same with Fabbri and Bert. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Athanasiou was the oldest of the failing core and needed to go for a variety of reasons

Next up is Mantha. He'll be 25 going into the season. I am not particularly interested in selling young 6'5" 240lb scorers, but I will probably have just about no tolerance for him next season. He needs to stay healthy AND have a dominant season if he's gonna stay on this team. I'm talking 30+ goals and 70+ pts. If he falls short of that at 25 and 300 games played, it's time to go. We could get a sizeable haul for him.

As far his contract goes, IDK really. Probably just give him 5 years and take him to 30.

Personally I'd move him this offseason, but your point is taken and very valid.  I like him to Montreal this offseason because they'll likely get a high (but not too high) 1st rounder, and have a great prospect pool.  Couple that with the fact the they've indicated they don't want to rebuild. They've already got a 1C and 2C in their system and just need top wingers so he's a good fit.  And finally, we've got three 2nd rounders so we can sweeten the pot a bit to take the sting out of losing that 1st. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Personally I'd move him this offseason, but your point is taken and very valid.  I like him to Montreal this offseason because they'll likely get a high (but not too high) 1st rounder, and have a great prospect pool.  Couple that with the fact the they've indicated they don't want to rebuild. They've already got a 1C and 2C in their system and just need top wingers so he's a good fit.  And finally, we've got three 2nd rounders so we can sweeten the pot a bit to take the sting out of losing that 1st. 

If the Habs offered up their first rounder in a package for Mantha before this years draft, I'd jump on it. There is still gold available in picks 10-15. 

For those who want Askarov, that's how you get Askarov. I do think the Habs would have to initiate the convo, however. 

While I feel Mantha will be worth more next summer than this summer, I also feel Montreal would overpay for a big, scoring french winger. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by marcaractac

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

If the Habs offered up their first rounder in a package for Mantha before this years draft, I'd jump on it. There is still gold available in picks 10-15. 

For those who want Askarov, that's how you get Askarov. I do think the Habs would have to initiate the convo, however. 

Their prospect pool is stacked and they've got most of their picks as well.  This is a year where they can afford to lose a 1st as long as it's for a good piece.  And Mantha fits into their forward group.  I think a package like I mentioned above (doesn't have to be those exact players, but close in value) is something they'd have to consider.  Going forward with Mantha, Gallagher, Domi, Drouin, Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, and Caulfield makes them very dangerous. Also makes guys like Tatar and Byron expendable for help in other areas (defense). 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

So it's agreed @krsmith17.

We're trading Mantha.

 

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Their prospect pool is stacked and they've got most of their picks as well.  This is a year where they can afford to lose a 1st as long as it's for a good piece.  And Mantha fits into their forward group.  I think a package like I mentioned above (doesn't have to be those exact players, but close in value) is something they'd have to consider.  Going forward with Mantha, Gallagher, Domi, Drouin, Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, and Caulfield makes them very dangerous. Also makes guys like Tatar and Byron expendable for help in other areas (defense). 

Yeah, I'd be down if they overpay. Normally I'd expect two major pieces for a player like Mantha. From Montreal, I'd demand three. Divisional rival cost. Him being french, they'd bite.  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Personally I'd move him this offseason, but your point is taken and very valid.  I like him to Montreal this offseason because they'll likely get a high (but not too high) 1st rounder, and have a great prospect pool.  Couple that with the fact the they've indicated they don't want to rebuild. They've already got a 1C and 2C in their system and just need top wingers so he's a good fit.  And finally, we've got three 2nd rounders so we can sweeten the pot a bit to take the sting out of losing that 1st. 

 

8 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

If the Habs offered up their first rounder in a package for Mantha before this years draft, I'd jump on it. There is still gold available in picks 10-15. 

For those who want Askarov, that's how you get Askarov. I do think the Habs would have to initiate the convo, however. 

While I feel Mantha will be worth more next summer than this summer, I also feel Montreal would overpay for a big, scoring french winger. 

I want their 1st this year and next year for Big Tony. IDK much about their prospects, but they can lump in 1 or a few of those as well.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

I want their 1st this year and next year for Big Tony. IDK much about their prospects, but they can lump in 1 or a few of those as well.

Truth. If the Habs want our big french man, they have to cough up the goods. Otherwise, hang on to him for a year or two. His value is only likely to increase. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

13 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Truth. If the Habs want our big french man, they have to cough up the goods. Otherwise, hang on to him for a year or two. His value is only likely to increase. 

Not necessarily.  There's probably some value in people thinking that Mantha is always a year or so away from "breaking out".  What if he has two 25 goal/55 point seasons over the next two years? If you know that Montreal thinks they're about to get a total monster, then you can price him accordingly rather than wait until he regresses to the mean.  No right answer here BTW, just a tight rope Yzerman has to walk in his decision making.

22 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

I want their 1st this year and next year for Big Tony. IDK much about their prospects, but they can lump in 1 or a few of those as well.

Little rich for Mantha.  There aren't many players in the entire league who would fetch you consecutive 1st round picks. 

[amato 3,210]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

1. See above: MacKinnon had nothing to do with the Duchene trade. 

2.  Assuming they pick somewhere between 6-10, I'd offer Mantha and a 2nd (not the 32nd overall though) to Montreal for their 1st round pick, Romanov, and Cayden Primeau prior to the draft. Thus we'd have a top four, a top 12, an elite goalie prospect, a top left D prospect, and two second rounders coming into our system this offseason.

3.  I agree with the bold.

4. It's only an "assessment year" because Yzerman said that's what he's doing and nobody wants to question him.  Plenty of other GMs actually do something of substance the first year they're on the job.  The whole "shake things up" approach ya know. 

 

Yeah but when the bottom's fallen out, you're just shaking an empty basket and nothing changes. We need to build a foundation first. An assessment year or period or whatever seems fine when we know we're not competing soon. Just have to keep hoping a couple of these draft picks turn into cornerstones of the franchise. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

Just now, amato said:

 

Yeah but when the bottom's fallen out, you're just shaking an empty basket and nothing changes. We need to build a foundation first. An assessment year or period or whatever seems fine when we know we're not competing soon. Just have to keep hoping a couple of these draft picks turn into cornerstones of the franchise. 

I disagree. Look at what Sakic and Shanahan did in the first 12 months after taking over their teams.  Both of whom were at the bottom of the league too.  

I also totally disagree with this notion that we're so bereft of talent that there's nothing we can do to improve.  We have tons of assets, between our middle 20s players, 2nd and 3rd round drat picks, and cap space.  Nobody is expect a miracle in year one, but I think it's entirely inaccurate to imply there's nothing more Yzerman could do.  He's done very little this year because that's his choice, not because he can't do more.  I simply disagree with that choice. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Wings React To TDL

Quote

"It's eye-opening. You see it, it's your buddy, a guy I came into the league with. We were roommates our rookie year. He's a great player. He just couldn't get it going this year. I don't know. It's the business of it. It does open your eyes. A little bit of a wake-up call. - Larkin

"I think (Athanasiou) was pretty shaken up," Larkin said. "The reality of it, he didn't want to be moved. He was comfortable here. We had a good group. He fit in with us. But he's got a great opportunity. He knows that. He's excited for that opportunity with the players they have, the weapons up front. He's gonna fit in nice there.

"There's a human side to it for sure," Blashill said. "Andreas was really good friends with a number of our guys, that whole young crew of (Tyler) Bertuzzi, (Anthony) Mantha, Larkin, (Madison) Bowey, Fabbs (Robby Fabbri) , they all got along really well. So there's a human side to it that I recognize. I've had conservations with some of the guys and I'll have conversations with more as we move through the way. Players seem to understand it's part of it. To say there's no human emotion involved with it would be a lie. Our job is to compartmentalize that and go out and play to the best of our ability."

Yzerman said Monday that while the playoffs are not available, jobs and futures are and everyone is aware that the remainder of the season still matters.

"All year has been like that. Everyone understands that," Larkin said. Everyone's getting an opportunity to play probably above what you are. There's opportunity. Every single guy understands that. We're here to take advantage of that and see what guys are made out of. This whole season's been a character test, a character-building season. We're in it to be together and win, and get some points down the stretch for the team."

 

[LeftWinger 4,963]

Wouldn't it be so ironic, if Gagner comes in a turns in to the 2nd line C that we were hoping Nielsen would be? If Goloubef turns out to be a very good #3 or #4 D-man and Timashov turns out to be a steal and cracks our top 6 over the next season and makes us say AA who?

This could happen!

Even though they say Gagner is not as good as he once was, maybe he turns it on somehow playing with the likes of Bertuzzi or Mantha, also I think a line of Timashov - Gagner  - Bertuzzi as a 2nd line might be pretty good.

What I'd like to see once visa's are in place:

Fabbri - Larkin - Mantha

Timashov - Gagner - Bertuzzi

Helm - Filppula - Glendening

Abby - Nielsen/Ehn - Perlini

The jury is out, maybe these lines click. I, for one, am wanting good things for Gagner, he still may go UFA in July, but maybe he makes Nielsen or Filppula expendable...we will see! If only Blashill wasn't the coach!

where is blueadams when we need some line combos!

Edited February 25, 2020 by LeftWinger

[amato 3,210]

21 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I disagree. Look at what Sakic and Shanahan did in the first 12 months after taking over their teams.  Both of whom were at the bottom of the league too.  

I also totally disagree with this notion that we're so bereft of talent that there's nothing we can do to improve.  We have tons of assets, between our middle 20s players, 2nd and 3rd round drat picks, and cap space.  Nobody is expect a miracle in year one, but I think it's entirely inaccurate to imply there's nothing more Yzerman could do.  He's done very little this year because that's his choice, not because he can't do more.  I simply disagree with that choice. 

Okay, we can look at what they've done. And I'm not saying that Yzerman can't be doing more. Just that fans may have to wait to see any kind of big shake up trade. I think he will do much more this off season/through next season though, than he's done so far. 

 

The notion that Sakic made the avs good instantly is false though. He took over as GM in September of 2014 and they didn't squeak into playoffs until the 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons. Sakic's fourth season on the job.

Here's a list of the trades the Avs made in Sakic's first 12 months on the job. 

The O'Reilly one I would say is the biggest shake up. And that came the off season after he took over. 

 

Same with Shanahan.. he's not the Leafs GM but he took his position with the team in April of 2014. Here are the maple leaf trades in the 12 months that followed. Nothing really stands out imo.

The maple leafs did have a little quicker of a turn around though, making the playoffs in Shanny's 3rd season on the job. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

4 minutes ago, amato said:

The maple leafs did have a little quicker of a turn around though, making the playoffs in Shanny's 3rd season on the job. 

Keep in mind the Leafs already had Marner, Nylander, Rielly at the time, and won the draft lottery after just one season. The key thing that was done when Shanny came is was creating a roster of tank by moving out guys like Bozak, etc. Much like what Yzerman has done for year one, I might add. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

2 hours ago, amato said:

Okay, we can look at what they've done. And I'm not saying that Yzerman can't be doing more. Just that fans may have to wait to see any kind of big shake up trade. I think he will do much more this off season/through next season though, than he's done so far. 

 

The notion that Sakic made the avs good instantly is false though. He took over as GM in September of 2014 and they didn't squeak into playoffs until the 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons. Sakic's fourth season on the job.

Here's a list of the trades the Avs made in Sakic's first 12 months on the job. 

The O'Reilly one I would say is the biggest shake up. And that came the off season after he took over. 

 

Same with Shanahan.. he's not the Leafs GM but he took his position with the team in April of 2014. Here are the maple leaf trades in the 12 months that followed. Nothing really stands out imo.

The maple leafs did have a little quicker of a turn around though, making the playoffs in Shanny's 3rd season on the job. 

Nobody said Sakic or Shanahan made their teams good.  I said that they did a lot their first year, and implied that an "assessment year" in which you do very little of substance is unnecessary. 

In the future I'm happy to debate with you, but I'd prefer you respond to what I actually said, and not what

Edit:  Also, now that I look closely at it, I'm gonna call bullsh*t on the "nothing stands out" comment too.  Sakic traded a top young center for two prospects who are still playing big roles on the team now and a 2nd round pick; and added Stuart and Soderberg (top 4 defenders with Stanley Cups) and Daniel Briere (a bona fide star). Shanahan traded a young top four defenseman for a first round pick, cleared a massively bad contract (Clarkson), and traded a depth defenseman for a 2nd round pick.  So yeah, hardly sitting on their hands here. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

I think "assessment year" is just happy talk and a bulls*** excuse to do nothing and tank your first year. That's it. Yzerman was never gonna say "hey yall im gonna run this boat into the rocks for a year and then start fixing it" Cause it's not good PR and ******* fans like me would have moaned and griped about it.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,015]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think "assessment year" is just happy talk and a bulls*** excuse to do nothing and tank your first year. That's it. Yzerman was never gonna say "hey yall im gonna run this boat into the rocks for a year and then start fixing it" Cause it's not good PR and ******* fans like me would have moaned and griped about it.

Well, good job that didn't happen.