2020 Offseason

[Akakabuto 1,842]

Fabbri 2 year extension at 2.95/year (per Custance).

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

Fabbri 2 year extension at 2.95/year (per Custance).

Love it.

Now do Mantha and Bertuzzi...

[marcaractac 3,963]

16 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Love it.

Now do Mantha and Bertuzzi...

But haven't you heard? Mantha is gonna make 15 mil per and Bert will make 9 mil per.

[Akakabuto 1,842]

deleted.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Akakabuto

[Akakabuto 1,842]

1 hour ago, CatBoyRossi said:

but covid hoax messed that. meh.

Not this s***. People are dying by the hundred of thousands ffs!

Edited August 25, 2020 by Akakabuto

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, Akakabuto said:

Not this s***. People are dying by the hundred of thousands ffs!

You fell for the classic sock troll.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, CatBoyRossi said:

Akakabuto,

Not sure why Yzerman makes bad deal like this. Fabbri is not very good. Average 3 line player. This is why he is given away by the Blues. His value will come down and he will not be tradeable any longer. Should have been traded at the draft, but covid hoax messed that. meh.

Regards

Umm. That's what middle 6 wingers make (which is what he is). 

Helm was averaging like 3.8 a season as a career 3rd liner.

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Umm. That's what middle 6 wingers make (which is what he is). 

Helm was averaging like 3.8 a season as a career 3rd liner.

Helm was not an RFA when he signed his current 3.8 million dollar deal. Back when he was an effective 3rd liner he was making less than that. He signed his last RFA deal for 2.1 million when he was roughly the same age as Fabbri. Before that he made 800k on his previous RFA deal. He signed the 2.1 million deal in 2012 after seasons of 26 and 32 points. Robby Fabbri's career high to this point is 36 points. He's horrible defensively and he's got significant injury history. He is not noticeably more valuable than 2012 Darren Helm.

[Akakabuto 1,842]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Helm was not an RFA when he signed his current 3.8 million dollar deal. Back when he was an effective 3rd liner he was making less than that. He signed his last RFA deal for 2.1 million when he was roughly the same age as Fabbri. Before that he made 800k on his previous RFA deal. He signed the 2.1 million deal in 2012 after seasons of 26 and 32 points. Robby Fabbri's career high to this point is 36 points. He's horrible defensively and he's got significant injury history. He is not noticeably more valuable than 2012 Darren Helm.

At whitch point the cap ceiling was at 60 m (if I'm not mistaken) making his salary of 2,125 m 3,54% of the cap

Fabbris deal is 3.62% of the cap.

So we are cool?

Edited August 25, 2020 by Akakabuto

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

This is now a Helm v. Fabbri thread. Cast your vote.

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 minute ago, Akakabuto said:

At whitch point the cap ceiling was at 60 m (if I'm not mistaken) making his salary of 2,125 m 3,54% of the cap

Fabbris deal is 3.64% of the cap.

So we are cool?

I agree, Fabbri is a Helm level player. Accept that Helm coulld actually play defense in addition to his Fabbri-esque production at the same age. I'd also point out that Helm wasn't coming off two blown out knees. However, I'd still reiterate that spending roughly 3.5% of your cap on a Helm-level player is an overpayment given how totally replaceable they are.

Again, I'm not saying there is some sort of long term implication of this deal for the team. I'm just saying that Fabbri isn't that good and given his injury history and RFA status Yzerman should have brought him in on a one year, 1.5 million deal. If Fabbri stays healthy and produces again (no guarantee) then give him a longer term deal for an AAV that closer to the upper end of what a 3rd liner makes. Giving him two years at 2.9 million seems really generous given how many question marks there are about Fabbri and the fact that he has no leverage whatsoever.

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

This is now a Helm v. Fabbri thread. Cast your vote.

I'm not sure how comparing Fabbri to Helm makes the case that he's worth this new contract. Pretty much EVERYONE on LGW hates Helm and thinks he's totally overpaid and replaceable.

[Akakabuto 1,842]

 

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

He is not noticeably more valuable than 2012 Darren Helm.

You made it sound as if you thought Fabbri got a noticeable better deal than Helm. 

 

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I agree, Fabbri is a Helm level player. Accept that Helm coulld actually play defense in addition to his Fabbri-esque production at the same age. I'd also point out that Helm wasn't coming off two blown out knees. However, I'd still reiterate that spending roughly 3.5% of your cap on a Helm-level player is an overpayment given how totally replaceable they are.

Again, I'm not saying there is some sort of long term implication of this deal for the team. I'm just saying that Fabbri isn't that good and given his injury history and RFA status Yzerman should have brought him in on a one year, 1.5 million deal. If Fabbri stays healthy and produces again (no guarantee) then give him a longer term deal for an AAV that closer to the upper end of what a 3rd liner makes. Giving him two years at 2.9 million seems really generous given how many question marks there are about Fabbri and the fact that he has no leverage whatsoever.

Fabbri have a lot more offensive potential than Helm ever had and offense will always pay equal if not more than defense/two-way-play. In his games with Detroit this last season he was on 49 point pace for a whole 82 game season.

His history with injuries could surely be a concern but given that he played a total of 61 games this season and that the Red Wings have a medical team that - hopefully - have good grip on his physical status I'm pretty confident Yzerman thinks thats behind him given the 2-year term and thats hes a young dude.

I thinks its a good/fair deal salary wise. What I dont like is this carries him over to UFA. He would still be RFA  at the end of a 1-year contract, right?

If Fabbri keeps improving over the next two years we could be looking at a 26 year old  ≈70 point player when his contract ends. (Given that the team as a whole also improves over the next two seasons). 

 

 

[kipwinger 8,756]

12 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

 

You made it sound as if you thought Fabbri got a noticeable better deal than Helm. 

 

Fabbri have a lot more offensive potential than Helm ever had and offense will always pay equal if not more than defense/two-way-play. In his games with Detroit this last season he was on 49 point pace for a whole 82 game season.

His history with injuries could surely be a concern but given that he played a total of 61 games this season and that the Red Wings have a medical team that - hopefully - have good grip on his physical status I'm pretty confident Yzerman thinks thats behind him given the 2-year term and thats hes a young dude.

I thinks its a good/fair deal salary wise. What I dont like is this carries him over to UFA. He would still be RFA  at the end of a 1-year contract, right?

If Fabbri keeps improving over the next two years we could be looking at a 26 year old  ≈70 point player when his contract ends. (Given that the team as a whole also improves over the next two seasons). 

 

 

That wasn't my intent. My intent was to show that Fabbri, like Helm, is pretty mediocre. If 24 year old Darren Helm had blown his knee out twice, was an RFA, and had only played 96 games over three year, and then got a raise from 800K to 2.9 million I think more than a few eyebrows would have been raised. As it was he got a raise from 800K to 2.1 million and a whole lot of people didn't like it. And that was before his UFA deal, which is only marginally more than Fabbri will make now. Yet when I suggest that Fabbri's contract was too much given all these issues, people act like I'm crazy.

I could be wrong, but I don't see Fabbri continuing to improve that much. And definitely not into the 70 pts range. I think its more likely that he plateaus or drops off. And that's if he doesn't get injured again. Which is why I favored a one year "prove it" contract. If I'm wrong, and he comes out and drops 50+ pts next year then give him more. No harm in that. But I've seen LOTS of players have a big year and then fall off a cliff. No reason to think Fabbri's any different than any of them.

[LeftWinger 5,131]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

This is now a Helm v. Fabbri thread. Cast your vote.

Let's see if it gets as heated as Hossa v. Franzen!  

Team Fabbri here!

Edited August 25, 2020 by LeftWinger

[Akakabuto 1,842]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

That wasn't my intent. My intent was to show that Fabbri, like Helm, is pretty mediocre. If 24 year old Darren Helm had blown his knee out twice, was an RFA, and had only played 96 games over three year, and then got a raise from 800K to 2.9 million I think more than a few eyebrows would have been raised. As it was he got a raise from 800K to 2.1 million and a whole lot of people didn't like it. And that was before his UFA deal, which is only marginally more than Fabbri will make now. Yet when I suggest that Fabbri's contract was too much given all these issues, people act like I'm crazy.

I could be wrong, but I don't see Fabbri continuing to improve that much. And definitely not into the 70 pts range. I think its more likely that he plateaus or drops off. And that's if he doesn't get injured again. Which is why I favored a one year "prove it" contract. If I'm wrong, and he comes out and drops 50+ pts next year then give him more. No harm in that. But I've seen LOTS of players have a big year and then fall off a cliff. No reason to think Fabbri's any different than any of them.

I don’t think youre crazy. I would have preferred a 1-year deal aswell.

I think AA is a better comparable than Helm. Fabbri got the same number of years but at a lower AAV(not significantly, I admit) despite scoring at a higher rate. Both being 24-years old. Difference being AA becoming a RFA at the end of it though. 

 

[Akakabuto 1,842]

And Fabbri being a 70-point player is not too far fetched I think. If you take his production from this year and put him on a team thats not the worst team that ever set skate on NHL ice, another 10 points is very possible. Add to that a bit of player development on his side and you’re in the ballpark atleast.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Akakabuto

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Fabbri doesn't have "Helm Hands". Fabbri wins.

 

 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

15 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

And Fabbri being a 70-point player is not too far fetched I think. If you take his production from this year and put him on a team thats not the worst team that ever set skate on NHL ice, another 10 points is very possible. Add to that a bit of player development on his side and you’re in the ballpark atleast.

 

70 point player lmao thanks i needed that 

hes gone in 2 yrs so dont get too attached 

[Akakabuto 1,842]

47 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

70 point player lmao thanks i needed that 

hes gone in 2 yrs so dont get too attached 

I said we could be looking at a 70-point player in two years and that the possibility is not too far fetched. Likely? No. Do I think so? No. There's plenty of development left in the kid and we'll see how it goes.

I agree with you on the latter. I think he's future trade bait.

 

[mackel 763]

On 8/25/2020 at 8:39 AM, marcaractac said:

But haven't you heard? Mantha is gonna make 15 mil per and Bert will make 9 mil per.

This is silly but Fabbri did get over paid... I was thinking more in the 2M range.  though it is "only" 950K it is an overpayment on an injury plagued assest with a very short track record of success.  That should have been plenty of leverage to strong arm him in to that 2M range maybe even less.  The point being made, and missed by the "brain trust" around here is that with Mantha and Bert their is far less leverage and if we overpaid for an asset we didn't have to, we might be taken to the cleaners on them,

18 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Let's see if it gets as heated as Hossa v. Franzen!  

Team Fabbri here!

Can I have neither for 500 Alex?

16 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

And Fabbri being a 70-point player is not too far fetched I think. If you take his production from this year and put him on a team thats not the worst team that ever set skate on NHL ice, another 10 points is very possible. Add to that a bit of player development on his side and you’re in the ballpark atleast.

  

If he's on a better team he likely wouldn't get as much ice time and would be down the line up... double edged sword.

 

[marcaractac 3,963]

32 minutes ago, mackel said:

This is silly but Fabbri did get over paid... I was thinking more in the 2M range.  though it is "only" 950K it is an overpayment on an injury plagued assest with a very short track record of success.  That should have been plenty of leverage to strong arm him in to that 2M range maybe even less.  The point being made, and missed by the "brain trust" around here is that with Mantha and Bert their is far less leverage and if we overpaid for an asset we didn't have to, we might be taken to the cleaners on them,

I am shocked that it is you who is one of two people who thinks this is overpayment. Shocked, I tell you. 

[Akakabuto 1,842]

51 minutes ago, mackel said:

If he's on a better team he likely wouldn't get as much ice time and would be down the line up... double edged sword.

True, but I'm not thinking of Boston or Tampa here. Put him in the Montreal or Chicago line-up and he probably gets about the same amount of TOI and role. Both of them scored about 70 more goals forward than Detroit.

 

 

51 minutes ago, mackel said:

This is silly but Fabbri did get over paid... I was thinking more in the 2M range.  though it is "only" 950K it is an overpayment on an injury plagued assest with a very short track record of success.  That should have been plenty of leverage to strong arm him in to that 2M range maybe even less.  The point being made, and missed by the "brain trust" around here is that with Mantha and Bert their is far less leverage and if we overpaid for an asset we didn't have to, we might be taken to the cleaners on them,

https://www.capfriendly.com/comparables/robby-fabbri-9924

Take a look at this link for comparable contracts. Work the sliders to max similarities in contract and put points to zero.

Its not an impressive list. This is what third-line wingers make these days.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Akakabuto

[mackel 763]

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

I am shocked that it is you who is one of two people who thinks this is overpayment. Shocked, I tell you. 

It is what it is...  He's a serviceable player but not worth more than 2M.

[marcaractac 3,963]

19 minutes ago, mackel said:

It is what it is...  He's a serviceable player but not worth more than 2M.

He is literally getting paid, on average, what most comparable players at his production is getting paid.  He has two years to show he can keep it up or improve. 

The part I find truly baffling is how one can think this contract will have any impact what so ever with Bert and Mantha. They are in a completely different situation. 

[kipwinger 8,756]

59 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

He is literally getting paid, on average, what most comparable players at his production is getting paid.  He has two years to show he can keep it up or improve. 

The part I find truly baffling is how one can think this contract will have any impact what so ever with Bert and Mantha. They are in a completely different situation. 

The comparable players you're talking about probably aren't RFAs without arbitration rights, haven't blown their knees out twice,  and played only 90ish games over three seasons. Excuse us for thinking maybe those things mean he should make a little less than average.

And speaking for arbitration rights, that's one big difference between Mantha/Bertuzzi and Fabbri. They actually have MORE leverage than he did. So again, if you think that the agents for Mantha/Bert aren't going to press for the absolute max, given what they just saw Fabbri get, you're pretty naive.