Ken Holland is a Hall of Famer

[Rivalred 630]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ur only saying that cause Im black.

I firmly believe an amazing smile brings joy to many 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Just now, Rivalred said:

I firmly believe an amazing smile brings joy to many 

What do u like about my smile?

[Rivalred 630]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What do u like about my smile?

You were provided a compliment, so rude not to say thank you 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, Rivalred said:

You were provided a compliment, so rude not to say thank you 

Oh now I have to say thank you cause Im black?

[Rivalred 630]

What are you trying to imply 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, Rivalred said:

What are you trying to imply 

That you're racist. Do I need to spell it out for you?

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That you're racist. Do I need to spell it out for you?

It's very clear who the racist is...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

It's very clear who the racist is...

Cant believe you're this proud of it. Yikes.

[chaps80 1,591]

Good for Kenny.

[Jimmybigrigs69 467]

Kenny will soon have his 5th ring. Does everyone still think hes a terrible GM?

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

4 hours ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Kenny will soon have his 5th ring. Does everyone still think hes a terrible GM?

I think he's the luckiest glory hound in the world.

[Jimmybigrigs69 467]

16 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

I think he's the luckiest glory hound in the world.

Everywhere he goes he wins

[Axl Foley 334]

53 minutes ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Everywhere he goes he wins

Both times he started with generational talent. Yzerman/Lidstrom, Datsyuk/Zetterberg, McDavid/Draisaitl. Give him a team without that, and he sucks.

[Jimmybigrigs69 467]

37 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

Both times he started with generational talent. Yzerman/Lidstrom, Datsyuk/Zetterberg, McDavid/Draisaitl. Give him a team without that, and he sucks.

He drafted Zetterberg and Datsyuk my guy

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

3 hours ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Everywhere he goes he wins

Osgood did too.  So why doesnt he get the recognition?

[Jimmybigrigs69 467]

19 minutes ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Osgood did too.  So why doesnt he get the recognition?

Osgood only won with Detroit

[Axl Foley 334]

3 hours ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

He drafted Zetterberg and Datsyuk my guy

ok. He was handed a Cup caliber team in Detroit. He didn't build it. Same as in EDM.

1 hour ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Osgood did too.  So why doesnt he get the recognition?

He benefitted from playing behind Cup teams. He was never elite. He didn't helo the Islanders or Blues do much.

[Jimmybigrigs69 467]

Correct me if Im wrong on any of this

THE FIRST TRIUMVIRATE IS FORMED

1980 - Denise Illitch marries attorney Jim Lites, and Mike Illitch subsequently hires his son in law to be counsel for Little Ceasars.

1982 - Lites assists Mike in purchasing the Detroit Red Wings, where Lites also assumes the role of in house counsel. To run the franchise, Illitch and Lites manage to poach the mastermind behind the Islanders dynasty, Jim Devellano. 

1985 - Working together, Lites and Devellano are able to mastermind Petr Klimas defection from the USSR to the USA and the Red Wings. This same year the Wings AHL goalie Ken Holland retires, and Devellano gives him an amatuer scouting position with the Wings. 

1987 - Scout Ken Holland is promoted to Director of Amateur Scouting, and the first triumvirate, of Lites, Devellano, and Holland is formed. 

1990 - Lites is promoted to VP of Hockey Ops

Under these three the Red Wings would draft Lidstrom, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Lapointe, Osgood, and McCarty, and manage the successful defections of the Russians. A solid portion of the eventual 97 and 98 cup teams. 

THE SECOND TRIUMVIRATE 

1993 - Lites's wife was being a total B, so he divorced that skank. Because she was an Illitch, he decides it's best to find work elsewhere, and is hired by the Dallas Stars to be President and CEO. Thus ending the first triumvirate. But the timing couldn't have been better for this, because Devellano is able to hire living legend Head Coach Scotty Bowman the same year. Thus the second, and the most powerful, triumvirate of Devellano, Holland, and Bowman is formed. 

1994 - Holland is promoted to Assistant General Manager, and Jim Nill, a pro scout from the Senators, is poached to replace Holland in Ken's old director roll.

1997 - After winning a cup, Devellano is promoted to President of the Wings org, and Holland becomes the new GM. 

1998 - Holland promotes Nill to become his assistant GM.

2002 - Bowman retires from coaching, but stays on with the team in an advisory role.

2003 - Holland and Nill hire Joe Mcdonnell to take on draft duties as the new scouting director.

2005 - Holland and Nill poach coaching prodigy Mike Babcock from the Ducks.

2006 - Steve Yzerman retires and is hired to be the new VP of Hockey Ops. 

The seond triumvirate captures 4 cups. Including one in 2008 after shrewdly and successfully navigating the team into cap era. And a new future triumvirate is begining to form between the likes of Holland, Nill, Mcdonnell, Babcock and Yzerman. 

THE BRAIN DRAIN

2009 - Scotty Bowman leaves the team to instead advise his son, the GM of the BlackHawks.

2010 - Steve Yzerman, believing Jim Nill is next in line to run the team when Holland retires, leaves to cut his teeth elsewhere, and becomes GM of Tampa Bay.

2013 - Holland, after talking for years about retiring when Lidstrom does, opts not to. With this, Nill decides to seek promotion elsewhere, and he falls into the arms of former 1st triumvirate star Jim Lites, who hires him to become GM of the Dallas Stars. Jim takes with him to Dallas Scouting director Joe Mcdonnell among several other Detroit scouts. Tyler Wright is hired to replace Mcdonnell.

2015 - Seeing the front office gutted for 4 years and the team on the decline, Babcock decides to leave for the Maple Leafs coaching job. Rookie coach Jeff Blashill is hired to replace him. 

Suddenly all that remains is an aged Devellano, Holland, and two very green replacements in Blash and Wright.

THE FALSE TRIUMVIRATE

2017 - After years of Blashill unable to get results from his veteran roster, Wright unable to replace the vets, and desperation contracts from Holland, the Illitch faimily finally authorizes a rebuild.

2019 - Holland and Chris Illitch orchestrate Yzermans return to manage the Franchise, so that Holland can move to President. However, after this is done, Holland is offered a GM job with an already loaded Oilers team and its too juicy to pass up. He leaves and takes Tyler Wright with him.

Holland would fire Wright in Edmonton a few seasons later, as would Yzerman fire Blashill in Detroit. 

[Jimmybigrigs69 467]

21 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

ok. He was handed a Cup caliber team in Detroit. He didn't build it. Same as in EDM.

He benefitted from playing behind Cup teams. He was never elite. He didn't helo the Islanders or Blues do much.

Holland helped build every wings team from 1985 to 1997. He ran the draft for 10 of those years, and was AGM for 3 of them. Thats like saying Kronwall got handed a cup because Lidstrom was captain.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Jimmybigrigs69

[Axl Foley 334]

3 hours ago, Jimmybigrigs69 said:

Holland helped build every wings team from 1985 to 1997. He ran the draft for 7 of those years, and was AGM for 3 of them. Thats like saying Kronwall got handed a cup because Lidstrom was captain.

No it's not. KH was a scout and AGM, but those 90s teams were more Bowman and JD. KH was given a team with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Shanahan, Murphy, Holmstrom, Larionov, and Vernon when he took over as GM in 97. He won 2 Cups with that core.

He didn't win another Cup until 2008 with Daysyuk, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, and Hasek as his core. Dats and Z were Hakan. KH just threw them a bone as late round picks. And even then he won only one Cup with this core.

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

1 hour ago, Axl Foley said:

No it's not. KH was a scout and AGM, but those 90s teams were more Bowman and JD. KH was given a team with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Shanahan, Murphy, Holmstrom, Larionov, and Vernon when he took over as GM in 97. He won 2 Cups with that core.

He didn't win another Cup until 2008 with Daysyuk, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, and Hasek as his core. Dats and Z were Hakan. KH just threw them a bone as late round picks. And even then he won only one Cup with this core.

Yup.  Holland is the biggest GRAVY TRAINER of all time.  Devellano drafts an all star team.  Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Fedorov, Kozlov, Holmstrom, etc.  Bowman and Devellano bring in Larionov, Fetisov, Murphy, Shanahan, etc.  Brian Murray traded for Draper.  Ken Holland deserves credit for not totally screwing anything up until the Filip Zadina pick, but he doesn't deserve more than 1/2 a percent of the credit for any of our cup wins.  Those were all orchestrated by others.  He just had the GM title at the time.  This Oilers team was orchestrated by Gary Bettman giving the Oilers (4) 1OA's in 7 years with a couple other top 10 picks sprinkeld in.  Ken Holland walks his way into the GM position on that team right when their stars are all maturing.  He brought in Evander Kane.  Wooooo.  Big maneuver there.  What a genius.  Right place, Right time.  Story of Ken Holland's life.  He's a bum.  Gravy Trainin Regard.

[stephen-gregory-yzerman 142]

Everything good that happened with the WIngs was Devellano, Bowman and Murray, Holland had nothing to do with it, but everything bad that happened was all Holland, nothing to do with his amateur or pro scouts LOL.

A big part of being a gm is hiring the right people that will together assemble a team. No one should get all the blame or all the glory.

Losing Jim Nill was a huge loss to this team. Its gonna be a sad day when Hakan retires.

[Jimmybigrigs69 467]

14 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

No it's not. KH was a scout and AGM, but those 90s teams were more Bowman and JD. KH was given a team with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Shanahan, Murphy, Holmstrom, Larionov, and Vernon when he took over as GM in 97. He won 2 Cups with that core.

He didn't win another Cup until 2008 with Daysyuk, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, and Hasek as his core. Dats and Z were Hakan. KH just threw them a bone as late round picks. And even then he won only one Cup with this core.

Holland traded Vernon away almost immediately upon taking over.

And Holland ran every draft from 87 to 97. He's literally directly responsible for drafting Fedorov, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Osgood, Knuble, Primeau, Lapointe, Sillinger, McCarty, Drake, and Holmstrom. 

I also find it funny that you credit Andersson with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. But you don't consider the fact that Lidstrom and Holmstrom were also Andersson, not Jimmy Devellano. Oh and Klima, Kozloz, Fedorov, and Konstantinov... those were masterminded by Jim Lites, not Jimmy D. Do you still think Devellano drafted Steve Yzerman? Sorry to tell you, but that was Neil Smith. Probert and Kocur were both Neil Smith. Shanahan, Fetisov, Murphy, Maltby, Larionov, and Vernon trades all happened when Jimmy D gave GM responsibilities to Scotty Bowman. But do you know what trade Devellano did do? The Federko trade. Probably the worst trade in Red Wings history. But I guess he also did the best trade in Wings history when he got Draper for one dollar.... wait! Nope, that was Bryan Murray. Paul Coffey, Brad McCrimmon, and Dino Ciccarelli, also Bryan Murray. Now that I think about, the Wings were pretty much garbage under Devellano until Holland, Andersson, and Bowman came around. So really Devellano got handed an all star team by them. No wonder he had to step back in 97 and let Holland take over. 

Furthermore, Hakan Andersson was hired by Devellano based on the advice of Nick Polano and Crister Rockstrom. Devellano had never even met or spoken with Andersson before he hired him. The hiring was blind luck on Devellanos part. But do you know who Andersson credits with mentoring him and training him up to become a full time scout intead of a part timer who drives cab and guides fishermen? You guessed right: Ken Holland. So I guess you could say Ken is sorta responsible for Andersson's career? Boy, and aren't we lucky Holland actually had the nuts to listen to a part-time scout with no prior expierence only 1 year in, or we wouldn't have gotten Lidstrom in that draft. 

You can hate Holland for the failures post Lidstrom all you want, but that guy was an integral part of building all of the dynasty teams. And was the guy who successfully navigated us into the cap era to win more cups. He's in the HOF because smart folks responsible for that dont base their entire opinion of him on recency bias. 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2024 by Jimmybigrigs69

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

6 hours ago, stephen-gregory-yzerman said:

Everything good that happened with the WIngs was Devellano, Bowman and Murray, Holland had nothing to do with it, but everything bad that happened was all Holland, nothing to do with his amateur or pro scouts LOL.

A big part of being a gm is hiring the right people that will together assemble a team. No one should get all the blame or all the glory.

Losing Jim Nill was a huge loss to this team. Its gonna be a sad day when Hakan retires.

Love this take.  I'm not ready to say Ken Holland is a bad GM.  Because as you said, keeping people in place around you so that everybody succeeds is a valuable trait to have.  And one could argue that a GENERAL MANAGER has that exact duty.  The only real knock on Holland is that I never heard him say what I consider to be the right things for him to say.  He doesn't come across as humble to me.  He comes across as snide.  If he'd have said what you suggested, SGY, then I'd like him a lot more.  "You know, I'm lucky to be a part of all this.  The organization has fantastic people in it, and I'm lucky to have landed one of the most fortunate jobs in sports.  The team that has been assembled by Mike, Jimmy, Scotty, Jim, Haakan, etc.  It's incredible.  I feel like it's made my job of sort of keeping it all glued together a lot easier.  Don't want to say I'm useless (laugh, ha ha), but let's just say I'm fortunate to have a lot of good people around me.  I will continue to do the best I can to help Detroit win as many cups as possible."  BOOM!  He'd have endeared himself to the entire fan base.  But he didn't do that.  He took too much credit for the work of others without saying things like that.  That sucks.  And that's what makes him a tire kicking, gravy trainin, EX-Red Wing.  

[Jimmybigrigs69 467]

48 minutes ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

Love this take.  I'm not ready to say Ken Holland is a bad GM.  Because as you said, keeping people in place around you so that everybody succeeds is a valuable trait to have.  And one could argue that a GENERAL MANAGER has that exact duty.  The only real knock on Holland is that I never heard him say what I consider to be the right things for him to say.  He doesn't come across as humble to me.  He comes across as snide.  If he'd have said what you suggested, SGY, then I'd like him a lot more.  "You know, I'm lucky to be a part of all this.  The organization has fantastic people in it, and I'm lucky to have landed one of the most fortunate jobs in sports.  The team that has been assembled by Mike, Jimmy, Scotty, Jim, Haakan, etc.  It's incredible.  I feel like it's made my job of sort of keeping it all glued together a lot easier.  Don't want to say I'm useless (laugh, ha ha), but let's just say I'm fortunate to have a lot of good people around me.  I will continue to do the best I can to help Detroit win as many cups as possible."  BOOM!  He'd have endeared himself to the entire fan base.  But he didn't do that.  He took too much credit for the work of others without saying things like that.  That sucks.  And that's what makes him a tire kicking, gravy trainin, EX-Red Wing.  

My guess is Holland was a better manager than he was a scout. Hence why he was promoted from amatuer scout to scouting director so quickly in 80s. And he was good at that role. Again, the nuts on him to go with part time scout Hakan Andersson's pick of Lidstrom in the 3rd was ballsy good work. Hakan had been driving cabs only a year before that. Holland knows how to use his people well. The brain drain in the 2010s killed that man. Suddenly his right hand men were Ryan Martin, Tyler Wright, and Jeff Blashill... Martin had no background in hockey. Wright is already no longer even employed in pro hockey. And Dan friggin Bylsma got another HC job before blash could.

Bad people = bad results