2021 Season

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 hour ago, F.Michael said:

I think Grand Master Y signing Merrill/Stecher, getting Staal via trade, and a healthy DD more or less has Cholo watching from the press box, or playing in GR.

I honestly think the kid could use a full AHL season. He hasn't exactly lit it up there yet either. Once he is too good to play down there, then call him up.

[Akakabuto 1,842]

54 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I honestly think the kid could use a full AHL season. He hasn't exactly lit it up there yet either. Once he is too good to play down there, then call him up.

If Detroit wants him to develop as a offensive d-man thats probably the best route.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

4 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

If Detroit wants him to develop as a offensive d-man thats probably the best route.

Hes gonna be 23 , he needs to have a good look this season to see what we have ppl can say he didnt produce in the ahl and thats fair enough but outside hronek we dont have any offensive dman and a few yrs ago cholowski got 7 goals in the nhl and 0 in the ahl the same season. 

Just cause he didnt produce in the ahl doesnt mean he cant get numbers with the wings(griffins roster’s pretty bad anyways)

all that being said i dont think he makes the roster with all the additions , if he wont play hes not worth keeping around over a biega who can basically sit 56 games for all we care 

Edited January 5, 2021 by nyqvististhefuture

[LeftWinger 5,131]

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

I honestly think the kid could use a full AHL season. He hasn't exactly lit it up there yet either. Once he is too good to play down there, then call him up.

 

49 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

If Detroit wants him to develop as a offensive d-man thats probably the best route.

Agree!  But at some point, he will no longer be waiver free.  As a matter of fact, this is his last season to be waiver exempt, according to capfriendly. Also, if he doesn't make the team, or hold a spot all year, do you protect him at the expansion draft? Right now we (I am assuming) protect Hronek and Stecher, will Cholowski be the 3rd D or will that be Lindstrom? I am pretty sure DD won't be protected. For me, that is who it boils down to, Cholowski and Lindstrom battling for the final protection. Related to that, I have Svech and Smith battling for the final FWD protection as well. Obviously Greiss will get the G protection.

But, yes, bottom line is THIS is the season that Cholowski needs to make the leap to either the NHL club OR top D prospect playing in GR.

[marcaractac 3,963]

51 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

 

Agree!  But at some point, he will no longer be waiver free.  As a matter of fact, this is his last season to be waiver exempt, according to capfriendly. Also, if he doesn't make the team, or hold a spot all year, do you protect him at the expansion draft? Right now we (I am assuming) protect Hronek and Stecher, will Cholowski be the 3rd D or will that be Lindstrom? I am pretty sure DD won't be protected. For me, that is who it boils down to, Cholowski and Lindstrom battling for the final protection. Related to that, I have Svech and Smith battling for the final FWD protection as well. Obviously Greiss will get the G protection.

But, yes, bottom line is THIS is the season that Cholowski needs to make the leap to either the NHL club OR top D prospect playing in GR.

If that isn't fuel enough for Cholowski to earn his spot, it's probably for the best he seeks an opportunity elsewhere. As of today, I'd protect Lindstrom over Cholo. 

[Akakabuto 1,842]

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Akakabuto

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Hes gonna be 23 , he needs to have a good look this season to see what we have ppl can say he didnt produce in the ahl and thats fair enough but outside hronek we dont have any offensive dman and a few yrs ago cholowski got 7 goals in the nhl and 0 in the ahl the same . 

Just cause he didnt produce in the ahl doesnt mean he cant get numbers with the wings(griffins roster’s pretty bad anyways)

all that being said i dont think he makes the roster with all the additions , if he wont play hes not worth keeping around over a biega who can basically sit 56 games for all we care 

This. We need more offense from the back end. Cholowski can provide that. 

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Agree!  But at some point, he will no longer be waiver free.  As a matter of fact, this is his last season to be waiver exempt, according to capfriendly. Also, if he doesn't make the team, or hold a spot all year, do you protect him at the expansion draft? Right now we (I am assuming) protect Hronek and Stecher, will Cholowski be the 3rd D or will that be Lindstrom? I am pretty sure DD won't be protected. For me, that is who it boils down to, Cholowski and Lindstrom battling for the final protection. Related to that, I have Svech and Smith battling for the final FWD protection as well. Obviously Greiss will get the G protection.

But, yes, bottom line is THIS is the season that Cholowski needs to make the leap to either the NHL club OR top D prospect playing in GR.

Also, this. The expansion draft should be a major factor. We need to get a good look at what we have in Cholowski this season. I don't care if he's in the lineup for game one, but ideally he plays 40+ games this season.

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

If that isn't fuel enough for Cholowski to earn his spot, it's probably for the best he seeks an opportunity elsewhere. As of today, I'd protect Lindstrom over Cholo. 

Lindstrom sucks.

As of today, I'd protects Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Namestnikov, Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Hronek, Stecher, Cholowski, Greiss

[Buppy 1,720]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

The offense translating to the NHL is irrelevant, because I'm not arguing that Cholowski will be a great offensive player in the NHL. I can definitely see a reality where he completely flops. I'm arguing that Cholowski has been an offensive player his whole career prior to turning pro, and I think he needs to be given an(other) opportunity.

Your entire argument in favor of Cholowski is that he's good offensively and would score more than other options, so that would make up for his defensive weakness. So his ability to score in the NHL absolutely does matter. It could not be any more relevant. It's the only thing that is relevant at all.

Before turning pro he had one good season in juniors and one bad season in college. Couple decent but hardly exceptional seasons in the BCHL. In his two pro seasons his scoring puts him between Ericsson and Dekeyser. He's barely been "better" than our worst offensive players, and that may be only because he's been given PP opportunities.

He doesn't need to be forced into the lineup, or have his competition purposely limited to the worst players, to be given opportunities. There's no reason we need to make any decision regarding his future this year. 

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Agree!  But at some point, he will no longer be waiver free.  As a matter of fact, this is his last season to be waiver exempt, according to capfriendly. Also, if he doesn't make the team, or hold a spot all year, do you protect him at the expansion draft? Right now we (I am assuming) protect Hronek and Stecher, will Cholowski be the 3rd D or will that be Lindstrom? I am pretty sure DD won't be protected. For me, that is who it boils down to, Cholowski and Lindstrom battling for the final protection. Related to that, I have Svech and Smith battling for the final FWD protection as well. Obviously Greiss will get the G protection.

But, yes, bottom line is THIS is the season that Cholowski needs to make the leap to either the NHL club OR top D prospect playing in GR.

I see no compelling reason to protect either Lindstrom or Stecher at this point, and I can't imagine both will do enough this year to change that. I would protect Cholowski pretty much regardless of how or where he plays this year.

[ely s 458]

It might be best for Cholowski to start in the AHL after an ok/good camp to try to earn his spot at the deadline and to come up with confidence, instead of playing 10-15 games and being demoted. He needs to find his game and if he doesn´t in the AHL, he probably should be traded.

[kipwinger 8,756]

Didn't Athanasiou teach us that irrespective of how many goals you score, if you give up more then it's a net negative for the team? To the extent that Cholo has offensive ability it is overshadowed by how often he gets scored on. Blashill has stated as much. No team (that's trying to be good) is going to throw a defensive liability on the ice game after game just because he scores a point every 3 or 4 games. Sure you can mitigate his shortcomings and accentuate his strengths by sheltering him at even strength and gifting him powerplay time, but he's still got to take a regular shift and he's shown that when he does he gets scored on disproportionate to how often he generates offense. When Cholo learns how to limit the chances against him he'll earn a spot, and get an opportunity to score, and that's how it should be. Otherwise he's just a defenseman version of AA, and those guys suck.

[Akakabuto 1,842]

 

Ugh Svech injured...

[Akakabuto 1,842]

Earlier tweet. Being helped off the ice doesn't sound good.

 

 

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 minute ago, Akakabuto said:

Earlier tweet. Being helped off the ice doesn't sound good.

 

 

I watched the scrimmage. "Helped off" is a stretch. Bertuzzi skated along beside Svech because he initiated the contact that caused the injury IIRC. Bert was just being a good teammate. Svech didn't need assistance, he was basically fine. Not clear that it was even his arm, could have been a shoulder. Svech was just bent a little over keeping his arm tucked up under him as he skated off so everyone assumed arm.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

 

Agree!  But at some point, he will no longer be waiver free.  As a matter of fact, this is his last season to be waiver exempt, according to capfriendly. Also, if he doesn't make the team, or hold a spot all year, do you protect him at the expansion draft? Right now we (I am assuming) protect Hronek and Stecher, will Cholowski be the 3rd D or will that be Lindstrom? I am pretty sure DD won't be protected. For me, that is who it boils down to, Cholowski and Lindstrom battling for the final protection. Related to that, I have Svech and Smith battling for the final FWD protection as well. Obviously Greiss will get the G protection.

But, yes, bottom line is THIS is the season that Cholowski needs to make the leap to either the NHL club OR top D prospect playing in GR.

Cant even say lindstrom makes fhe team either at this point with all the additions we’ve made ... i dont know if lindstrom is exempt from waivers but id be flipping both back and forth to the ahl and big club see who emerges 

If we can trade a nemeth now to a contender for a 2nd (with salary retained ) i pull the trigger today instead  of the deadline and create a roster spot ... call pittsburgh they seem to want to trade all their assets until sidney retires

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Lindstrom sucks.

Cholowski sucks

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

59 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

This. We need more offense from the back end. Cholowski can provide that. 

Also, this. The expansion draft should be a major factor. We need to get a good look at what we have in Cholowski this season. I don't care if he's in the lineup for game one, but ideally he plays 40+ games this season.

Lindstrom sucks.

As of today, I'd protects Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Namestnikov, Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Hronek, Stecher, Cholowski, Greiss

Id have to put smith in there , think after this season hes a fulltime redwing and we dont have any player who can fight and bring the physical play he brings .

Id have protected Svechnikov with ease but now after today im having doubts, think he might need a new start elsewhere . Im not sure what steve will do with namestnikov and stecher , he might have got them for seattle purposes , and if canucks come and crawl back for stecher and gives multiple picks wed have to consider it if wed risk losing him anyways for nothing

 

anyone know how many games nielsen has to play to be one of the veteran players eligible for the expansion draft ? Cause as of now in my mind hes a taxi squad guy all season but due to positive tests and injuries if we can fit him in 15 games and be done with him so he qualifies for the draft that be good enough

[ely s 458]

14 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Id have to put smith in there , think after this season hes a fulltime redwing and we dont have any player who can fight and bring the physical play he brings .

Id have protected Svechnikov with ease but now after today im having doubts, think he might need a new start elsewhere . Im not sure what steve will do with namestnikov and stecher , he might have got them for seattle purposes , and if canucks come and crawl back for stecher and gives multiple picks wed have to consider it if wed risk losing him anyways for nothing

 

anyone know how many games nielsen has to play to be one of the veteran players eligible for the expansion draft ? Cause as of now in my mind hes a taxi squad guy all season but due to positive tests and injuries if we can fit him in 15 games and be done with him so he qualifies for the draft that be good enough

I would even consider to add a pick to sweeten things up for seattle

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Buppy said:

Your entire argument in favor of Cholowski is that he's good offensively and would score more than other options, so that would make up for his defensive weakness. So his ability to score in the NHL absolutely does matter. It could not be any more relevant. It's the only thing that is relevant at all.

Upside isn't relevant? Cholowski has more upside than any other option in my opinion. THAT'S why I think he should be in the lineup over Staal, Biega, Staal, etc.

1 hour ago, Buppy said:

Before turning pro he had one good season in juniors and one bad season in college. Couple decent but hardly exceptional seasons in the BCHL. In his two pro seasons his scoring puts him between Ericsson and Dekeyser. He's barely been "better" than our worst offensive players, and that may be only because he's been given PP opportunities.

Why do you think Cholowski has been given PP opportunities? He's shown flashes of high end ability on the power-play.

1 hour ago, Buppy said:

He doesn't need to be forced into the lineup, or have his competition purposely limited to the worst players, to be given opportunities. There's no reason we need to make any decision regarding his future this year. 

Sure. Let him sit on the taxi squad all season. That should be great for his development...

1 hour ago, Buppy said:

I see no compelling reason to protect either Lindstrom or Stecher at this point, and I can't imagine both will do enough this year to change that. I would protect Cholowski pretty much regardless of how or where he plays this year.

So I guess you agree with the upside. So if you would protect Cholowski over Lindstrom or Stecher, why would you not play him over them? I'm not following the logic...

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Didn't Athanasiou teach us that irrespective of how many goals you score, if you give up more then it's a net negative for the team? To the extent that Cholo has offensive ability it is overshadowed by how often he gets scored on. Blashill has stated as much. No team (that's trying to be good) is going to throw a defensive liability on the ice game after game just because he scores a point every 3 or 4 games. Sure you can mitigate his shortcomings and accentuate his strengths by sheltering him at even strength and gifting him powerplay time, but he's still got to take a regular shift and he's shown that when he does he gets scored on disproportionate to how often he generates offense. When Cholo learns how to limit the chances against him he'll earn a spot, and get an opportunity to score, and that's how it should be. Otherwise he's just a defenseman version of AA, and those guys suck.

I don't really disagree with any of this. And like I said, if Cholowski doesn't improve his defensive game, and is a liability defensively more than he is a weapon offensively, move on, the same way we did with Athanasiou.

On the other side of it though, didn't Ehn teach us that irrespective of how good you are defensively, if you can't generate some offense, then you bring nothing to the team? To the extent that Lindstrom has defensive ability, it is overshadowed by how little offensive ability he has. No team should throw an offensive blackhole out on the ice game after game, just because he's decent defensively. When Lindstrom learns how to generate chances offensively, that's when he should earn a spot. Otherwise, he's just a defensive version of Ehn, and those guys suck...

45 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Cholowski sucks

Cholowski > Lindstrom

[kipwinger 8,756]

26 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't really disagree with any of this. And like I said, if Cholowski doesn't improve his defensive game, and is a liability defensively more than he is a weapon offensively, move on, the same way we did with Athanasiou.

On the other side of it though, didn't Ehn teach us that irrespective of how good you are defensively, if you can't generate some offense, then you bring nothing to the team? To the extent that Lindstrom has defensive ability, it is overshadowed by how little offensive ability he has. No team should throw an offensive blackhole out on the ice game after game, just because he's decent defensively. When Lindstrom learns how to generate chances offensively, that's when he should earn a spot. Otherwise, he's just a defensive version of Ehn, and those guys suck...

It's all about goal differential (actually shot differential these days). I don't know Ehn's metrics, but whether or not he scores much, if he doesn't get scored on very often then he's not hurting you as bad as a guy who scores a lot but gets scored on way more. In theory it's better to have a guy who scored 1 goal all year and gave up 20 than a guy who scored 15 goals but gave up 40. Both guys aren't adding anything to your wins, but one guys is hurting you worse than the other.

And don't just take my word for it. There was a reason why Mike Hoffman, Duclair, and AA were all the last to get contracts and they were all dramatically underpaid relative to their expectations.

Edit: As far as Cholo goes, he led the team last year (among regulars) in offensive zone starts (58%) so he is HEAVILY sheltered already and his shot metrics are an abysmal 46%. So despite him being given more opportunity to "generate offense" than anyone else on the team the Red Wings actually get badly outshot when he's on the ice. Or, to put it another way, when Cholo is on the ice more offense is generated for the other team than for Detroit despite the fact that the other team has to go 200 ft. to get a shot and Cholo starts right next to their net nearly 60% of the time.

Edited January 5, 2021 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

26 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

It's all about goal differential. I don't know Ehn's metrics, but whether or not he scores much, if he doesn't get scored on very often then he's not hurting you as bad as a guy who scores a lot but gets scored on way more. In theory it's better to have a guy who scored 1 goal all year and gave up 20 than a guy who scored 15 goals but gave up 40. Both guys aren't adding anything to your wins, but one guys is hurting you worse than the other.

I get the whole differential part of it, but I think it's easier for an offensive minded defenseman to iron out the defensive deficiencies, than it is for a defensive defenseman to gain offensive ability. I just think Cholowski's ceiling is higher than Lindstrom's, and as a rebuilding team starved for offense, I'd be playing Cholowski. If he doesn't pan out, oh well, we can always trade him to the Rangers for a 2nd and 3rd round pick...

Edited January 5, 2021 by krsmith17

[kipwinger 8,756]

8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I get the whole differential part of it, but I think it's easier for an offensive minded defenseman to iron out the defensive deficiencies, than it is for a defensive defenseman to gain offensive ability. I just think Cholowski's ceiling is higher than Lindstrom's, and as a rebuilding team starved for offense, I'd be playing Cholowski. If he doesn't pan out, oh well, we can always trade him to the Rangers for a 2nd and 3rd round pick...

I'd play neither since they're both actively hurting you. Lindstrom's possession metrics are worse than Cholo's. But neither are contributing to offense. Both are actively helping the other team's offense actually, because they both suck. I'd MUCH rather see Stecher and Merrill get those minutes unless Cholowski can demonstrate that he's fixed his defensive issues when he inevitably gets a few games in the lineup.

Cholo doesn't contribute to team offense. His personal stats are better than a Nemeth (for instance) so it seems like he does but actually the Red Wings shoot at the other team's goal LESS often with Cholo on the ice. So while HIS offensive numbers improve, the team's offense is worse, when he's playing. Not exactly "offensive" when the team spends significantly less ice time in the ozone when Cholo is playing than when is isn't, despite the fact that he starts there more than any player on the team.

I would agree that he has skills that should help him contribute offensively. He's a great skater with a good shot. But those don't do you any good if the other team has the puck whenever you're on the ice.

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'd play neither since they're both actively hurting you. Lindstrom's possession metrics are worse than Cholo's. But neither are contributing to offense. Both are actively helping the other team's offense actually, because they both suck. I'd MUCH rather see Stecher and Merrill get those minutes unless Cholowski can demonstrate that he's fixed his defensive issues when he inevitably gets a few games in the lineup.

So would you play Staal and / or Biega over both as well? Hronek, Nemeth, DeKeyser, Stecher, Merrill and who?

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Cholo doesn't contribute to team offense. His personal stats are better than a Nemeth (for instance) so it seems like he does but actually the Red Wings shoot at the other team's goal LESS often with Cholo on the ice. So while HIS offensive numbers improve, the team's offense is worse, when he's playing. Not exactly "offensive" when the team spends significantly less ice time in the ozone when Cholo is playing than when is isn't, despite the fact that he starts there more than any player on the team.

But wouldn't you say that is more of a defensive thing again? The team isn't generating offense when he's on the ice, because he and the other four on the ice spend more time chasing...

22 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I would agree that he has skills that should help him contribute offensively. He's a great skater with a good shot. But those don't do you any good if the other team has the puck whenever you're on the ice.

Agreed. The tools are there, he just needs to put it all together. He's running out of time and chances. I hope he can put it together this season. I think he can be a 4/5 defenseman and PP QB if everything goes right for him.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

 

 

Wasn't this already done by the league weeks ago?

[kipwinger 8,756]

51 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

So would you play Staal and / or Biega over both as well? Hronek, Nemeth, DeKeyser, Stecher, Merrill and who?

But wouldn't you say that is more of a defensive thing again? The team isn't generating offense when he's on the ice, because he and the other four on the ice spend more time chasing...

Agreed. The tools are there, he just needs to put it all together. He's running out of time and chances. I hope he can put it together this season. I think he can be a 4/5 defenseman and PP QB if everything goes right for him.

Biega is the safe choice if Cholo or Lindstrom show that they haven't improved at all since last year. Again, he's not helping you but he's not hurting you nearly as bad. I'd give those youngsters their chances, but if they suck then Biega plays until Seider is done in the SHL.

To some extent every player on the Wings is chasing the play (aside from Mantha and Larkin). Nobody has very good possession numbers. But what separates Cholo from all the other defensemen is how much more often he starts in the offensive zone (58%). He leads the team in o-zone starts and his shot share is 46%. Compare that with someone like Nemeth whose shot share is an nearly-as-bad 49% but who is buried in the defensive zone 60% of the time. So the Wings actually generate MORE offense under Nemeth (despite having to go 200ft to do so) than under Cholowski who is already right there. The same is true for Hronek (40% o-zone starts, 47% shot share).

So yes, the whole team sucks but Cholowski plays the easiest minutes on the team and sucks worse at keeping the puck pointed in the right direction. He is (by far) the most egregious example of this on the team. The next closest player in terms of o-zone starts is Mantha. He starts in the o-zone a lot, but keeps the shot share in the Wings favor pretty significantly (56%).

Edited January 5, 2021 by kipwinger