2021 TDL Thread

[F.Michael 4,590]

5 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

 

He'll play tonight.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by F.Michael

[Gniwder 168]

36 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

 

Mantha is honestly sucha dumb *****. Can't fight without getting a booboo. Doesn't move his feet or play physical. Completely quit on this team. Surprised he doesn't ask for a trainer to tuck him in b4 his midday nappy. Probably stopped at Chic Filet for a tendy basket and a choccy milk on his limo trip through VA. Hope the Flyers run his ass through the boards tonight. ******* loser.

[Gniwder 168]

Read this, but apparently Mickey redmond said Yzerman said Washington approached him with a pitch for Mantha, and his response was "this makes no sense for me. Make it make sense."

Yasssss Queen ******* slay

[Akakabuto 1,805]

"So Steven, how about Nyquist?"

"This does not make sense to me."

[Gniwder 168]

17 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

"So Steven, how about Nyquist?"

"This does not make sense to me."

"Steeg you wand Werenski?"

"Jarmo, I'm gonna sign Zach in 2 years free of charge"

"Fugggggg"

[Gniwder 168]

Panik to wear #24, Vrana will take #15

[F.Michael 4,590]

3 hours ago, Gniwder said:

"Steeg you wand Werenski?"

"Jarmo, I'm gonna sign Zach in 2 years free of charge"

"Fugggggg"

I honestly would've traded Mantha str8 up for Werewolf on the spot instead of the deal we have with the Caps.

Werewolf is in his prime as we speak - who knows what mileage/injuries he could accrue in 2 seasons time...I for one wouldn't be too surprised if Grand Master Y passes on him in a few years if his salary demands are too high, or if he's racked up more injuries.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

Mantha 1G 1A tonight so far. 

Fire Holland

[diehardredwingsfan58 154]

Yzerman got a sweet haul for Mantha.

[kipwinger 8,576]

22 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Banned from HF till August.
Perma banned on RWC.

Obviously there would be a different sentiment without the Mantha trade. So lets talk about that one. I don't think it's as a huge a steal as everyone seems to think it is. Vrana was going to need a big pay day that Washington couldn't afford to give him. And Mantha is a much better player (IMO) that is locked in at a reasonable cap hit for the next 3 years. Panik is also a salary dump - not an asset.

So I kinda think about it like this:

To DET: Richard Panik + 2nd
To WSH: unloads Panik's bad contract for the next 3 years

To DET: 3rd line forward (Vrana) + 1st
To WSH: Mantha

Remember, Vrana is a sheltered (with lots of PP time) 60 pt player on a very good Capitals team. Mantha is 70 pt player on a very bad Red Wings team (till he quit on us this year). I can easily see Mantha returning to a 70 pt pace (or more) with Washington. And Vrana dropping off to 40-50 pt pace a season with the Wings.

Therefore we basically got a prime middle 6 winger and a low 1st for Mantha.

That's okay, but not amazing.

Get depressed on retards

I love this trade. Having watched a TON of Capitals hockey over the last 5 years I'll give you my take. Basically...

I don't agree with your assessment of Vrana. In the last two years he's scored 36 goals in 108 games. Good for 3rd on the Capitals behind Ovechkin and Oshie. 35 of those goals came at even strength. He also did this despite significantly lower even strength ice time than most of Washington's regular forwards. During those same two years he had 15 powerplay assists despite being on Washington's 2nd powerplay unit. If you watch the Capitals you'll realize that they rarely give time to their 2nd unit, and if they do it's not much.

The reality is that Mantha relies more heavily on the powerplay for his production than Vrana does. Vrana is a much better even strength goal scorer and he's about to see a sizeable increase in ice time with a top center (his best center previously was Lars Eller). Plus now that he's on a top powerplay unit he's likely to see a significant increase in PP ice time, which is good for Detroit (and Vrana's stat line) because he's a great powerplay passer and the first legit playmaker we've had off the half wall since Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Vrana's warts are these: He's not super defensively responsible, and he's not super physical. It's legitimate to wonder how he'll handle better competition that comes with increased icetime, but with that said he's not Andreas Athanasiou either. He's more competitive and responsible than THAT. FWIW he's also been one of Washington's better possession forwards over the last two years.

I think we actually got the better player here, he just needed to not be buried down lineup. Especially when you consider Mantha is likely to take a hit in icetime. This will hurt especially bad on the powerplay because his usual spot is occupied by a playmaker in Washington's system (typically Backstrom or Kuznetsov). He'll be the shooter on the second powerplay, and as I've already mentioned that unit doesn't get the same icetime that Mantha was getting in Detroit.

Edit: Final thought. I'm pumped about the 1st too. I think Washington is getting bounced early. Nobody on that team gives a sh*t anymore and it's evident. They won their Cup and now they're content to go as far as their talent takes them without doing the hard work. They're primed to get beat by some hardworking up and coming team. I don't see them making past the 2nd round and maybe they get bounced in the first depending on their matchup.

Edited April 14, 2021 by kipwinger

[Gniwder 168]

18 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I love this trade. Having watched a TON of Capitals hockey over the last 5 years I'll give you my take. Basically...

I don't agree with your assessment of Vrana. In the last two years he's scored 36 goals in 108 games. Good for 3rd on the Capitals behind Ovechkin and Oshie. 35 of those goals came at even strength. He also did this despite significantly lower even strength ice time than most of Washington's regular forwards. During those same two years he had 15 powerplay assists despite being on Washington's 2nd powerplay unit. If you watch the Capitals you'll realize that they rarely give time to their 2nd unit, and if they do it's not much.

The reality is that Mantha relies more heavily on the powerplay for his production than Vrana does. Vrana is a much better even strength goal scorer and he's about to see a sizeable increase in ice time with a top center (his best center previously was Lars Eller). Plus now that he's on a top powerplay unit he's likely to see a significant increase in PP ice time, which is good for Detroit (and Vrana's stat line) because he's a great powerplay passer and the first legit playmaker we've had off the half wall since Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Vrana's warts are these: He's not super defensively responsible, and he's not super physical. It's legitimate to wonder how he'll handle better competition that comes with increased icetime, but with that said he's not Andreas Athanasiou either. He's more competitive and responsible than THAT. FWIW he's also been one of Washington's better possession forwards over the last two years.

I think we actually got the better player here, he just needed to not be buried down lineup. Especially when you consider Mantha is likely to take a hit in icetime. This will hurt especially bad on the powerplay because his usual spot is occupied by a playmaker in Washington's system (typically Backstrom or Kuznetsov). He'll be the shooter on the second powerplay, and as I've already mentioned that unit doesn't get the same icetime that Mantha was getting in Detroit.

Edit: Final thought. I'm pumped about the 1st too. I think Washington is getting bounced early. Nobody on that team gives a sh*t anymore and it's evident. They won their Cup and now they're content to go as far as their talent takes them without doing the hard work. They're primed to get beat by some hardworking up and coming team. I don't see them making past the 2nd round and maybe they get bounced in the first depending on their matchup.

Mantha played 14:25 of even strength for the Caps last night

Mantha (Red Wings)
Even strength TOI per game: 15:36 (2nd on team among forwards)
Power play TOI per game: 2:31 (3rd on team among forwards)
Even strength scoring per 60: 1.27 (10th on team among forwards)
Power play scoring per 60: 1.13 (8th on team among forwards)

Vrana (Capitals)
Even strength TOI per game: 12:01 (9th on team among forwards)
Power play TOI per game: 2:20 (4th on team among forwards)
Even strength scoring per 60: 2.52 (2nd on team among forwards)
Power play scoring per 60: 2.63 (9th on team among forwards)

Doesn't look to me like Vrana isn't getting PP time. More that he isn't getting the even strength time he probably deserves. You're right, he'll get that here.

I think we have to look at Mantha last season (before he quit on us) to get a good picture of what he is capable of though:

Mantha 2019/20
Even strength TOI per game: 15:49 (3rd on team among forwards)
Power play TOI per game: 3:03 (3rd on team among forwards)
Even strength scoring per 60: 2.38 (1st on team among forwards)
Power play scoring per 60: 4.11 (3rd on team among forwards)

Is Vrana capable of being 2019/20 Mantha effective? IDK. From what I can see he's been sheltered on the 3rd line and PP on a good team his entire career. Mantha has at least shown in the past he's capable of 1st line duties.

[kipwinger 8,576]

22 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Mantha played 14:25 of even strength for the Caps last night

Mantha (Red Wings)
Even strength TOI per game: 15:36 (2nd on team among forwards)
Power play TOI per game: 2:31 (3rd on team among forwards)
Even strength scoring per 60: 1.27 (10th on team among forwards)
Power play scoring per 60: 1.13 (8th on team among forwards)

Vrana (Capitals)
Even strength TOI per game: 12:01 (9th on team among forwards)
Power play TOI per game: 2:20 (4th on team among forwards)
Even strength scoring per 60: 2.52 (2nd on team among forwards)
Power play scoring per 60: 2.63 (9th on team among forwards)

Doesn't look to me like Vrana isn't getting PP time. More that he isn't getting the even strength time he probably deserves. You're right, he'll get that here.

I think we have to look at Mantha last season (before he quit on us) to get a good picture of what he is capable of though:

Mantha 2019/20
Even strength TOI per game: 15:49 (3rd on team among forwards)
Power play TOI per game: 3:03 (3rd on team among forwards)
Even strength scoring per 60: 2.38 (1st on team among forwards)
Power play scoring per 60: 4.11 (3rd on team among forwards)

Is Vrana capable of being 2019/20 Mantha effective? IDK. From what I can see he's been sheltered on the 3rd line and PP on a good team his entire career. Mantha has at least shown in the past he's capable of 1st line duties.

You're making my point for me. Mantha's production is heavily dependent on his TOI, Vrana's hasn't been. The minute Mantha's TOI drops his production dips. His TOI in all situations will go down in Washington where he's not "the guy". Meanwhile Vrana's TOI in all situations is about to go up, and he's already produced at Mantha levels (or better) without the ice time.

And I don't agree that Vrana was "sheltered". Pretty hard to displace Backstrom as the primary playmaker on the Caps powerplay. He'll fill that role in Detroit. Similarly, it's not been an easy task cracking Washington's top six the last few years. I don't know that he's been "sheltered" as much as he's been the young guy on a veteran team. Washington did the EXACT same thing with Burakovsky. Then they traded him to Colorado and he blew up. I'm expecting the same from Vrana

Edited April 14, 2021 by kipwinger

[Gniwder 168]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You're making my point for me. Mantha's production is heavily dependent on his TOI, Vrana's hasn't been. The minute Mantha's TOI drops his production dips. His TOI in all situations will go down in Washington where he's not "the guy". Meanwhile Vrana's TOI in all situations is about to go up, and he's already produced at Mantha levels (or better) without the ice time.

And I don't agree that Vrana was "sheltered". Pretty hard to displace Backstrom as the primary playmaker on the Caps powerplay. He'll fill that role in Detroit. Similarly, it's not been an easy take cracking Washington's top six the last few years. I don't know that he's been "sheltered" as much as he's been the young guy on a veteran team. Washington did the EXACT same thing with Burakovsky. Then they traded him to Colorado and he's blew up. I'm expecting the same from Vrana

I really don't have a point beyond "I'm hesitant to call the trade a huge win slam dunk already" like many seem to think it is. But I am not dissatisfied with the return.

I think there exists a scenario where Vrana is pretty average top 6 forward for us. And the picks turn out to be Svechnikovs or Cholowskis. In that case the win may be in Washington's column at the end of the day.

Vrana will get more ice team and less quality of teammates. Mantha will get less ice time but higher quality teammates. The results remain to be seen. 

[kipwinger 8,576]

1 minute ago, Gniwder said:

I really don't have a point beyond "I'm hesitant to call the trade a huge win slam dunk already" like many seem to think it is. But I am not dissatisfied with the return.

I think there exists a scenario where Vrana is pretty average top 6 forward for us. And the picks turn out to be Svechnikovs or Cholowskis. In that case the win may be in Washington's column at the end of the day.

Vrana will get more ice team and less quality of teammates. Mantha will get less ice time but higher quality teammates. The results remain to be seen. 

Sure, the picks could obviously bust. Totally agree. My bigger point is that Vrana and Mantha basically produce at about the same rates at the same points in their respective careers. If the trade was one for one I'd have been happy with it because A) Mantha is a p*ssy, and B) Vrana still an RFA. But when you throw in the picks AND a useful depth player I really DO think it's a massive win.

As far as the bolded, I don't agree. Washington's 3rd line isn't loaded with super talented guys. Dylan Larkin and Tyler Bertuzzi (and to a lesser degree Fabbri and Zadina) are MUCH better than anybody Vrana's regularly played with. The team overall is worse, but his linemates are about to improve dramatically from guys like Brett Connolly, Lars Eller, Devonte Smith-Pely, and Carl Hagelin.

Hard to say what Blash does with Vrana, but if you literally plugged Vrana into all Mantha's existing roles I genuinely believe he out produces Mantha on the Red Wings. Which is not to say Mantha is going to bust in Washington. He's going to score a ton. But we basically replaced (or improved upon) his production and got premium assets too. Plus we got rid of a big, lazy, b*tch on top of it.

[Gniwder 168]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Sure, the picks could obviously bust. Totally agree. My bigger point is that Vrana and Mantha basically produce at about the same rates at the same points in their respective careers. If the trade was one for one I'd have been happy with it because A) Mantha is a p*ssy, and B) Vrana still an RFA. But when you throw in the picks AND a useful depth player I really DO think it's a massive win.

As far as the bolded, I don't agree. Washington's 3rd line isn't loaded with super talented guys. Dylan Larkin and Tyler Bertuzzi (and to a lesser degree Fabbri and Zadina) are MUCH better than anybody Vrana's regularly played with. The team overall is worse, but his linemates are about to improve dramatically from guys like Brett Connolly, Lars Eller, Devonte Smith-Pely, and Carl Hagelin.

Hard to say what Blash does with Vrana, but if you literally plugged Vrana into all Mantha's existing roles I genuinely believe he out produces Mantha on the Red Wings. Which is not to say Mantha is going to bust in Washington. He's going to score a ton. But we basically replaced (or improved upon) his production and got premium assets too. Plus we got rid of a big, lazy, b*tch on top of it.

I mean sure, but Connor Sheary, Lars Eller, Daniel Sprong, and so forth, are pretty much producing at the same levels as Larkin and Zadina are for us. The totality of the Washington team collectively is just so much better. They actual have a transition game, effective defenders, a coach, and can sustain offensive pressure. Vrana is losing that team wide support and the morale that comes with it.

"Sheltered" was probably the wrong word to use. Underutilized may be the better descriptor for him. But unlike Burakovsky, Vrana isn't getting plucked from an underutilized role and sent to a good Colorado team where he can maximize his potential. He has to do that on the dead wings. Hopefully he can still do it, but I'm not holding my breath.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

23 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

Hard to say what Blash does with Vrana, but if you literally plugged Vrana into all Mantha's existing roles I genuinely believe he out produces Mantha on the Red Wings. Which is not to say Mantha is going to bust in Washington. He's going to score a ton. But we basically replaced (or improved upon) his production and got premium assets too. Plus we got rid of a big, lazy, b*tch on top of it.

You forgot "dumb"

 

[kipwinger 8,576]

14 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

I mean sure, but Connor Sheary, Lars Eller, Daniel Sprong, and so forth, are pretty much producing at the same levels as Larkin and Zadina are for us. The totality of the Washington team collectively is just so much better. They actual have a transition game, effective defenders, a coach, and can sustain offensive pressure. Vrana is losing that team wide support and the morale that comes with it.

"Sheltered" was probably the wrong word to use. Underutilized may be the better descriptor for him. But unlike Burakovsky, Vrana isn't getting plucked from an underutilized role and sent to a good Colorado team where he can maximize his potential. He has to do that on the dead wings. Hopefully he can still do it, but I'm not holding my breath.

All of which is true, but has no bearing on whether we "won" the trade or not. Or whether it was a big overpayment. All Vrana has to do is produce more than Mantha would have for the Red Wings in the same roles. And then add in the picks and you've got a pretty clear win. There's no denying that both Mantha AND Vrana would produce more in Washington rather and Detroit all things being equal. But that's not really relevant. One of them has to play for Detroit, and I think we'll get similar or better production out of Vrana once you factor in better linemates and more icetime than he's had previously. And when you add the picks, and Panik (who I actually really like), I think it's a MASSIVE return for a guy who's not too much better (or better at all) than Vrana alone.

Edit: It would be like we traded Tomas Tatar for Gustav Nyquist, 1st, 2nd, and Darren Helm. Huge. Overpayment.

Edited April 14, 2021 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,576]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You forgot "dumb"

 

What gets lost in all the kerfuffle, and what I think is really the most important part of all this, is that somewhere a disheveled @krsmith17 is lying next to a Mantha shaped body pillow repeatedly saying "the wave of the future" a la Howard Hughes in The Aviator.

[Gniwder 168]

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

All of which is true, but has no bearing on whether we "won" the trade or not. Or whether it was a big overpayment. All Vrana has to do is produce more than Mantha would have for the Red Wings in the same roles. And then add in the picks and you've got a pretty clear win. There's no denying that both Mantha AND Vrana would produce more in Washington rather and Detroit all things being equal. But that's not really relevant. One of them has to play for Detroit, and I think we'll get similar or better production out of Vrana once you factor in better linemates and more icetime than he's had previously. And when you add the picks, and Panik (who I actually really like), I think it's a MASSIVE return for a guy who's not too much better (or better at all) than Vrana alone.

Well it's tough because Mantha quit on us this year. But we also know he's capable of a 70 pt pace even on a bad Red Wings team. Because he quit it leaves us really no choice but to trade him... however we're still out a potential 70 pt player in many respects.

If Vrana can flirt with 60-70 pt paces it's a clear slam dunk win for us. It will also be interesting if Vrana has a true future here. I can see guys like he, Bertuzzi, and Fabbri getting flipped for picks in the next 18 months. That will extend the trade tree for our little Mantha deal.

[marcaractac 3,963]

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

What gets lost in all the kerfuffle, and what I think is really the most important part of all this, is that somewhere a disheveled @krsmith17 is lying next to a Mantha shaped body pillow repeatedly saying "the wave of the future" a la Howard Hughes in The Aviator.

I can confirm that he is happy with the return in this trade. Sorry to disappoint.

[Gniwder 168]

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

What gets lost in all the kerfuffle, and what I think is really the most important part of all this, is that somewhere a disheveled @krsmith17 is lying next to a Mantha shaped body pillow repeatedly saying "the wave of the future" a la Howard Hughes in The Aviator.

Jurco - Larkin - Mantha
Smith - Sproul
Mrazek

Babcock took this from us

[kipwinger 8,576]

31 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I can confirm that he is happy with the return in this trade. Sorry to disappoint.

Lol, what else is he gonna say? The deal is done. 10 times out of 10 Krsmith does NOT pull the trigger on this exact trade.

Edited April 14, 2021 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 5,017]

I absolutely loved the trade! I am a huge Mantha fan too!  But just like has been said, by time The Wings are ready to compete, his contract would be up and entering his 30's and wouldn't fit the rebuild timeline!

(side subject. When the site is down for so long, am I the only one hoping that when it comes back up it is totally revamped? I mean, what actually is the reason for shutting it down for so long?)

[Gniwder 168]

It is worth noting that Friedman is also reporting that Vrana was in the doghouse in Washington for lack of effort. We essentially swapped our troubled players. Hopefully this is a Fabbri situation and Vrana will now turn it on. He should certainly be a go to player here. Anyone know if he or Panik are in tomorrow?

Edited April 14, 2021 by Gniwder

[Akakabuto 1,805]

So Vrana and Mantha are the same but different. We win the trade.