Vernon is HOF bound. Ahead of Ozzy and Hank. Wha?

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 minute ago, bIueadams said:

Its awarded to the team not the player

Really??? I had no idea.

I would argue that backstopping your team to several championships and getting the associated "hardware" is a greater feat than winning a Vezina Trophy (which I'd argue is also a team award). There is no greater way for a goalie to earn "fame" than to come up big in the playoffs. Why do I think so? I guess I'd wager than guys like Price, Luongo, Lundqvist, etc. would gladly trade in all their Vezinas for a chance to lift the Cup. Likewise when Bobrovsky looks back on his career I doubt he'll regret the lack of individual awards as much as he'll regret his performance in the Cup finals this year. I think individual awards simply matter less. Certainly to me, but also to the players themselves, and (if Vernon's inclusion in the Hall is any indication) to the Hall inclusion committee and voters as well.

[bIueadams 776]

40 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Really??? I had no idea.

I would argue that backstopping your team to several championships and getting the associated "hardware" is a greater feat than winning a Vezina Trophy (which I'd argue is also a team award). There is no greater way for a goalie to earn "fame" than to come up big in the playoffs. Why do I think so? I guess I'd wager than guys like Price, Luongo, Lundqvist, etc. would gladly trade in all their Vezinas for a chance to lift the Cup. Likewise when Bobrovsky looks back on his career I doubt he'll regret the lack of individual awards as much as he'll regret his performance in the Cup finals this year. I think individual awards simply matter less. Certainly to me, but also to the players themselves, and (if Vernon's inclusion in the Hall is any indication) to the Hall inclusion committee and voters as well.

Sure but the Vezina is awarded to the player specifically, not to the team.

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Sure but the Vezina is awarded to the player specifically, not to the team.

Agreed, but who gives a sh*t? It’s still a lesser accomplishment than backstopping your team to a Cup. I think it’s fine to let some guys in for their individual regular season performances. For some guys (Price, Luongo, Lundqvist, etc.) that’s all they have to show for their decades long careers. But for other guys, like Vernon or Osgood, being an integral part of multiple championship teams (along with relatively great stats) is also reason enough to get in. I don’t think there’s a blueprint for letting guys in the Hall. 

[bIueadams 776]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Agreed, but who gives a sh*t? It’s still a lesser accomplishment than backstopping your team to a Cup. I think it’s fine to let some guys in for their individual regular season performances. For some guys (Price, Luongo, Lundqvist, etc.) that’s all they have to show for their decades long careers. But for other guys, like Vernon or Osgood, being an integral part of multiple championship teams (along with relatively great stats) is also reason enough to get in. I don’t think there’s a blueprint for letting guys in the Hall. 

Well it is a hall of "fame" not a hall of best player. So we really we should be going by popularity and impact on the game. Therefore I switch my argument. Vernors and Ozzy are cool guys IMO and should be in. 

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Zetterberg was miles above Vernon as a player. 

Instead of giving old-timers one last chance, they need to vote in the next best eligible player.  

[kliq 3,763]

On 6/21/2023 at 10:17 PM, Axl Foley said:

Pick any random season during Vernon's career. Make a list of the top 5 goalies in the NHL at that time. If Vernon isn't there (and he wouldn't be) he doesn't belong in the HOF.

In 1989 Mike Vernon was the Runner Up in Vezina Voting.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-1989.html#all_vezina_stats

[Axl Foley 334]

5 hours ago, kliq said:

In 1989 Mike Vernon was the Runner Up in Vezina Voting.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-1989.html#all_vezina_stats

He also played for the best team in the league that year. There are Vezina winners who dont belong in the Hall.

[kliq 3,763]

4 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

He also played for the best team in the league that year. There are Vezina winners who dont belong in the Hall.

My statement wasn't saying he is or isn't a HOFer, it was responding to the notion that he was never a top 5 goalie in any particular season. He was.

[Axl Foley 334]

9 hours ago, kliq said:

My statement wasn't saying he is or isn't a HOFer, it was responding to the notion that he was never a top 5 goalie in any particular season. He was.

I was referring to his competition. If you look at other rosters, year by year, there were goalies who ended up with careers more worthy of HOF induction during Vernon's career. I dont think he was among the best, despite having good numbers when he was playing for better teams.

HOF induction should be about the entire career, and I think there were better goalies during that time that aren't in.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Axl Foley

[kliq 3,763]

6 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

I was referring to his competition. If you look at other rosters, year by year, there were goalies who ended up with careers more worthy of HOF induction during Vernon's career. I dont think he was among the best, despite having good numbers when he was playing for better teams.

HOF induction should be about the entire career, and I think there were better goalies during that time that aren't in.

Out of curiosity, who? I assume Cujo is one.

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 hour ago, Axl Foley said:

I was referring to his competition. If you look at other rosters, year by year, there were goalies who ended up with careers more worthy of HOF induction during Vernon's career. I dont think he was among the best, despite having good numbers when he was playing for better teams.

HOF induction should be about the entire career, and I think there were better goalies during that time that aren't in.

How many other goalies A) had better careers, B) won two Cups, C) was a central part of the most famous brawl in NHL history? The Hall of Fame is not the Vezina Trophy. One if for the best goalie in any given year, which is more or less what you're describing. One is for famous players. At no point in his career should Mike Vernon have won the Vezina Trophy, but he absolutely should be in the HoF.

[bIueadams 776]

25 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

How many other goalies A) had better careers, B) won two Cups, C) was a central part of the most famous brawl in NHL history? The Hall of Fame is not the Vezina Trophy. One if for the best goalie in any given year, which is more or less what you're describing. One is for famous players. At no point in his career should Mike Vernon have won the Vezina Trophy, but he absolutely should be in the HoF.

To be fair, when I think of famous goalies, I don't think of Mike Vernon

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

47 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

To be fair, when I think of famous goalies, I don't think of Mike Vernon

no goalie is famous

[kipwinger 8,756]

3 hours ago, bIueadams said:

To be fair, when I think of famous goalies, I don't think of Mike Vernon

I bet a lot of Wings and Flames fans do. He brought Calgary their only Cup and he beat up Roy in Detroit. The guy is a legend to a lot of people.

[town123 234]

I loved Roger Crozier as a kid.   Best goalie ever!   Glenn Hall 2nd.

 

You kids....lol.... you had to see a goalie playing without a mask.  I don't think they were thrilled to do it, but nobody had or wore a mask.   

[bIueadams 776]

5 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

no goalie is famous

 

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I bet a lot of Wings and Flames fans do. He brought Calgary their only Cup and he beat up Roy in Detroit. The guy is a legend to a lot of people.

If you were to ask me who are the best goalies of that era are, my brain goes Hasek, Brodeur, Roy without even thinking.

Those are the HOF guys IMO. You'd have to mention Vernon to me, and only then would I be like "oh yeah he was pretty decent too"

[Axl Foley 334]

8 hours ago, kliq said:

Out of curiosity, who? I assume Cujo is one.

Assuming his career legitimately started in the mid to late 80's, I would put him behind Hextall, Roy, Barrasso, Fuhr, and Billy Smith for sure (who was nearing the end of a HOF career, but was still better overall) among goalies who played in that era. Maybe even Vanbiesbrouck.

Early to mid 90's, I put him behind Belfour, CuJo, Roy, Potvin, Richter.

Mid to late 90's, Brodeur, Osgood, Richter, Roy, Hasek, Khabibulin.

At any point in his career, there were other goalies more deserving.

39 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

 

If you were to ask me who are the best goalies of that era are, my brain goes Hasek, Brodeur, Roy without even thinking.

Those are the HOF guys IMO. You'd have to mention Vernon to me, and only then would I be like "oh yeah he was pretty decent too"

Kinda my point. People have been debating Osgood for over a decade. Never heard anyone bring up Vernon.

The HOF should be exclusive to no brainers. If you have to debate it, the answer should be "No".

Edited June 26, 2023 by Axl Foley

[bIueadams 776]

6 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

Assuming his career legitimately started in the mid to late 80's, I would put him behind Hextall, Roy, Barrasso, Fuhr, and Billy Smith for sure (who was nearing the end of a HOF career, but was still better overall) among goalies who played in that era. Maybe even Vanbiesbrouck.

Early to mid 90's, I put him behind Belfour, CuJo, Roy, Potvin, Richter.

Mid to late 90's, Brodeur, Osgood, Richter, Roy, Hasek, Khabibulin.

At any point in his career, there were other goalies more deserving.

Kinda my point. People have been debating Osgood for over a decade. Never heard anyone bring up Vernon.

The HOF should be exclusive to no brainers. If you have to debate it, the answer should be "No".

Right

The only ones who debate Osgood are wings fans. Wings fans dont even debate Vernon. But now everyone loves Vernon after not talking about him or caring for 30 years. Go team go.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

13 minutes ago, Axl Foley said:

Assuming his career legitimately started in the mid to late 80's, I would put him behind Hextall, Roy, Barrasso, Fuhr, and Billy Smith for sure (who was nearing the end of a HOF career, but was still better overall) among goalies who played in that era. Maybe even Vanbiesbrouck.

Early to mid 90's, I put him behind Belfour, CuJo, Roy, Potvin, Richter.

Mid to late 90's, Brodeur, Osgood, Richter, Roy, Hasek, Khabibulin.

At any point in his career, there were other goalies more deserving.

Kinda my point. People have been debating Osgood for over a decade. Never heard anyone bring up Vernon.

The HOF should be exclusive to no brainers. If you have to debate it, the answer should be "No".

got him there

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

 

If you were to ask me who are the best goalies of that era are, my brain goes Hasek, Brodeur, Roy without even thinking.

Those are the HOF guys IMO. You'd have to mention Vernon to me, and only then would I be like "oh yeah he was pretty decent too"

Meh. He’d get my vote. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

By relative standards Vernon deserves the nod. 

Moginly should be in tho.

HOF is kinda like the Grammys. Mostly stupid. 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by The 91 of Ryans

[bIueadams 776]

8 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

This is what the HOF is now tho. Which is fine. Rock n Roll HOF is bad now too

Things are always relative and Vernon is modern HOF worthy for better or worse. 

^ what I'd say if they inducted Mogilny but they haven't so they're all just a bunch of Tim Hortons cologne wearing inbreds that have no code or rules at all. 

 

I like the way the wings do things. If there's any question you shouldnt get ur number retired, you dont get ur number retired. Which is  why Feds and Dats remain out. I would operate the HOF the same way. 

But youre right it is like the rock n roll HOF. Every hack with a few pop hits gets in.

[kliq 3,763]

3 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

Assuming his career legitimately started in the mid to late 80's, I would put him behind Hextall, Roy, Barrasso, Fuhr, and Billy Smith for sure (who was nearing the end of a HOF career, but was still better overall) among goalies who played in that era. Maybe even Vanbiesbrouck.

Early to mid 90's, I put him behind Belfour, CuJo, Roy, Potvin, Richter.

Mid to late 90's, Brodeur, Osgood, Richter, Roy, Hasek, Khabibulin.

Sorry, what I meant was who is more deserving then him that wasn't already in the HOF. So essentially Hextall, Vanbiesbrouck, Cujo, Potvin, Richter, Osgood, and Khabibulan in your opinion.

My thoughts are this, I've always thought the bar for goalies is ridiculously high when it comes to the HOF. They let a ton of goalies in from the old days, but in modern hockey (lets say last last 30 years) its just Fuhr, Hasek, Roy, Belfour and Brodeur. There is no way only 5 goalies in 3 decades should get in when the bar is nowhere close to as high for skaters or the previous generation.

http://hockeygoalies.org/awards/halloffame.html

Is he the most deserving goalie of the goalies eligible? That's a fair question, probably not. I definitely think Cujo, Hextall, and Osgood are more deserving, I disagree with Potvin. As for Vanbiesbrouck, Richter, and Khabibulan, I don't know as I think I would have to do a deep dive. I think of all four of those guys in a similar tier.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by kliq

[Axl Foley 334]

3 hours ago, bIueadams said:

I like the way the wings do things. If there's any question you shouldnt get ur number retired, you dont get ur number retired. Which is  why Feds and Dats remain out. I would operate the HOF the same way. 

But youre right it is like the rock n roll HOF. Every hack with a few pop hits gets in.

Dats will get his number retired IMO. Probably not until the Russia stuff blows over. And not before he gets into the HOF. Probably next year with Z.

We all know why Feds isn't getting his number retired. Even tho he clearly deserves it.

3 hours ago, bIueadams said:

I like the way the wings do things. If there's any question you shouldnt get ur number retired, you dont get ur number retired. Which is  why Feds and Dats remain out. I would operate the HOF the same way. 

But youre right it is like the rock n roll HOF. Every hack with a few pop hits gets in.

Dolly Parton got in. Nuff said.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Axl Foley

[bIueadams 776]

9 hours ago, Axl Foley said:

Dats will get his number retired IMO. Probably not until the Russia stuff blows over. And not before he gets into the HOF. Probably next year with Z.

We all know why Feds isn't getting his number retired. Even tho he clearly deserves it.

Dolly Parton got in. Nuff said.

Dats is probably my fav player of all time, and i dont think 13 ever goes in rafters. Cant leave on bad terms.