I'd recommend everyone watching the TSN story about the Pens and Lemieux some of the stuff basically admitted that they were trying to lose. Sure players would never want to lose but the front office especially GM and coach can put players into impossible situations. Like TSN mentioned playing the 3 pairing on the PK, or let the fourth line play the PK stuff like that.
Funny, how emotionally invested some posters seem to be in a Ken Holland. Yes he has done great things but after losing Yzerman, Nill he really seems to struggle and there is debate about that because the results are there since 2009. It is impossible to rebuild a team via draft or solely via UFA, the mixture needs to be there. With Pasha continuing to slow down I really hope the front office isn't banking on finding another Pasha outside of the top 3 in 2015. I don't care how many excuses people want to make the point is, he now has 4 years to change the UFA perception of this team and to lay down a plan. The current strategy of barely staying over the water won't entice players to sign here, as the core continues to age and the question marks continue to rise. Wheter some fans like to admit it or not but that's exactly how top guys are viewing this team right now.
Sometimes a step back can mean 2 steps forward in the long run, so I would have been much more happy with seeing the young guys getting a chance, create cap space and go for a top pick in one of the best drafts since 2006. Also I'm sick of Holland's if you make the playoffs everything can happen, yeah everything can happen if you are stacked as the LA Kings in most cases you are going to face the Big Bad Bear or the high powered offense of Pittsburgh = first round exit again and a worse draft pick. This is a team which needs a make over in terms of playstyle and soon on key position, you simple can't do that by drafting alone, we won't have the luck of getting a Z, Pasha or - dream on - Lidström again because every team has improved their worldwide scouting and finding gems has become harder and harder.
Shero brought the Pens a cup, a cup final experience, an ECF << more success than Holland and Lemieux decided to fire him because the expectations are sky high in Pittsburgh. The Wings lost out on top UFAs, the team became stale, complacent, UFAs shying away and hasn't even flirted with a third round since 2009 and yet Holland gets a 4 year extension. This just doesn't feel right for me.
I have nothing against Holland, he has done a lot of great things but I personally believe he has lost his inner fire to guide this team through some rough rough years and maybe the game has evolved too much for his ideas. Hopefully we can hire Shero as an assistant and if things go south have him taking over.
Not sure what you're getting at here Frank with the first paragraph, but I'd be ashamed if I was a Penguins fan. And as a Wings fan I don't think I could ever condone that organizational strategy. The Peguins tanked on purpose for about 5 years, couldn't half-fill a rink to save their lives and were 99% on the move to Kansas City. Anaheim were the statistcal favourite to win the Crosby lottery but Pittsburgh got lucky. On top of all that, after being handed soooo much, they have one cup. They are a "win now" team that isn't winning. Not even close. No wonder Shero got fired.
The Wings organizition and Holland still have high standards but they're not at the same stage from a franchize/legacy standpoint as the pens are.
Jarnkrok was only in North America for half a season before the trade. It stands to reason we wouldn't be talking about him, most of us had never seen him play one shift of hockey prior to this last season. There isn't any chatter about Backman either, but not because he's no good. Nobody's seen him play and he doesn't have a track record in North America to compare things too.
So, it could mean we didn't have much to say about a guy we'd never seen. Or it could be that there's always going to be more to say about losing a good prospect for nothing, than keeping one in your system for a few years. For instance, I'd have a lot more to say about Andreas Athanasiou if Holland traded him for a guy that walked at the end of a disappointing season.
Exactly. But everone's got something to say now.
And the Athanasiou point is valid. Right now he's a prospect that some of us really like. Until he gets traded for Cody Franson and suddenly mutates into "the next awesome player guy".
That's the LGW way though. Everybody is a stud until he's not in the organization anymore. We're like Red Sox fans. "Johnny Damon is the kind of guy you build a franchise around"....*Damon goes to Yankees*..."f*** that bum. I never liked him".
Jarnkrok was/is a good prospect. Any revisionist attempt to paint him as some washout is demonstrably false. I don't care if people liked the trade or didn't, doesn't matter now. But the extra step of trying to justify it post hoc by claiming that Jarnkrok wasn't any good is bulls***.
"I like to think of him like a Zetterberg." - Scout Ari Vouri
"He has great hockey sense, very tenacious, a lot of (Henrik) Zetterberg-type qualities. He’s strong on the puck, never gives up on the puck.” - Jim Nill
"He’s probably the best prospect in our organization overall." - Jiri Fischer
“We all feel he’s a top-six forward in the long run." - Hakan Andersson
“The stuff he can do, he is as good as anybody in terms of hand-eye coordination and skill in tight places. It’s just a matter of time until he starts putting up big numbers." - Jiri Fischer
I can't speak for the rest of LGWs, but I was never trying to justify anything. I'm trying to understand why Holland thought he was disposbale.
As far as what Wings brass said about him, they also like comparing Pulkinen to Hull and Jari Kurri. Raise your hand if you think Teemu will ever score 50 goals in the NHL. It's more likely he'll score 25 and look a bit like those guys while doing it.
We've got people here saying Jarnkrok sucks (your Damon comparison is spot on) and we've got people here saying that Jarkrok's going to be the next Zetterberg because the two names were used in the same sentence by Wings management and staff. I like the idea that I'm somewhere in the middle.
One thing's for sure, we have spent waaaaay more time talking about Jarnkrok post-trade then we ever did when he was still a Wings prospect. What does that say?
I agree with you on that, and that's why I was for the trade. I Know they know better than me. I just don't think we should bash Calle until he really shows his value. In my book he's still a top level prospect until he proves otherwise. And like I said I will be so relived if the otherwise happens.
Yeah. We all know that if Holland had his way, he’d hang on to ALL of his prospects but leave them in GRs forever. I mean the last significant prospect he traded before Jarnkrok was who? Mathais?
It’s common belief around these parts that Poille robbed Holland on the Legwand deal. But you have to ask yourself, while Holland’s made some questionable signings and whiffed on some must-sign UFAs, I can’t remember the last time he lost a trade that involved a top prospect or roster player.
Some might argue “yeah, that’s because he never makes ANY trades”. To which I might add, maybe he doesn’t make any trades because GMs all ask for too much and he won’t pull the trigger. Because he’s patient as f*** and because he likes to horde his prospects. He has to. To me this makes more sense than Holland having a Dr Stangelove type breakdown and in a sweaty twitch, pressing some red button that sends Calle to Nashville.
"Certainly, I don't look at Alfie thinking he's going to play 82 games," Holland said. "When you got (Gustav) Nyquist and (Tomas) Tatar and (Tomas) Jurco and (Luke) Glendening and (Riley) Sheahan, if we can get a certain amount of games out of (Alfredsson), we would feel like he would be a real positive addition.
To me, Holland is looking for as much depth as possible, and is certainly OK with Jurco playing 20 + minutes a night and hopefully dominating in GRs at least to start the season. It’s a hard philosophy to argue unless the Wings come stumbling out of the gate and start the season 2-8 or something.
Mantha probably blows? But only if we trade him right?
When Hakan Andersson says after this years draft that “hopefully we were able to get a centre to play with Mantha” I file that under:
- things I believe to not be bulls*** hype
- things said by a super-scout about a prospect, with a level of reverence never used on Jarnkrok.
When I read Fischer’s quotes on Jarnkrok I think of the passionate way in which he spoke of Sproul in this video (starting at the 50 second mark). When he says “Sproul can shoot the puck better, harder, under pressure, than 90% of the players in the NHL” (2:45) I want to believe him, but part of me knows that there’s probably some over-zealousness in play. I imagine him looking and sounding the same way when talking about Jarnkrok:
But whatevs. Maybe I’m over-analysing. I just find it hard to accept that Holland would knowingly trade “the next Zetterberg” for David Legwand but then say that Tatar, Jurco, Nyquist, and Sheahan are basically untouchable.
Well see I trust management, whereas many of you don't. I'm going to be fine with the Legwand-Ironhook trade until Calle makes it big in the NHL. I like to think management knew what they were doing there.
I think once Mantha, Athanasiou, Marchenko, Pulkkinen, Ouellet, and Sproul (or a combination of others) officially join the team, and they are what we thought they would be. Then the trades you want will be made.
The Wings play REAL tight to the vest, and as a business man I operate the same way. IMO it's smart and minimizes risk, even if you lose some product in prospects who can't grace your system. All that means is that you're getting the best of the best.
Yeah, it’s tricky because we talk about guys like Mantha, AA, Larkin, Pulkkinen, and of course Sproul and Ouellet.
Then you have Captain Deathstare who has a boner for guys like Glendenning and Backmann.
So, this team is a living organism which makes it very unpredictable.
Perhaps the 29 teams that didn't sign him + the one that desperately needed a player of his type and still waited until over a month into free agency to sign him to a deal (1.3M) that probably acurately reflected his value as a UFA?
Who knows exactly what took place with DZ's camp with regards to negotiations with other teams on terms and salary, but the proof of what type of player Del Zotto is, currently, can be found in the contract details and date of signing IMO.