the official "I am sorry for doubting you Mr. Holland thread&quot

[Heaton 1]

The things you wanted added just isn't feasable, Lou. The word is that Mayers was looking to fetch a 2nd rounder? If all those guys like Mayers are worth 2nd rounder we wouldn't have a draft this year.

It's a definite step in the right direction.

[clutchngrab 12]

Lou,

I define soft as someone that can't take or give a check and refuses to skate in the traffic areas. Do you have a diff definition?

Sure Dats isn't going to hammer anyone, but obviously that's not his game. Willie, who was the biggest ***** of the lot, is gone. Huds doesn't check real hard, but he skates in the traffic areas. Franzen, Homer? Not soft. Zets? Not soft. Maltby, Draper? Not soft. I think you are one of those fans that goes "ooh and ahh" when some forward lays a big body check and completely forgets the puck and/or defensive responsibilities.

As a case ion point, they were not a "soft" team the other night against the Preds which is the closest we have been to a playoff game so far this year. Now imagine that same effort minus Willie + a reasonably healthy Bert and we should be fine. I'm curious as to what team you feel is sufficiently "hard" out there?

Edited February 27, 2007 by clutchngrab

[Lou_Siffer 1]

The things you wanted added just isn't feasable, Lou. The word is that Mayers was looking to fetch a 2nd rounder? If all those guys like Mayers are worth 2nd rounder we wouldn't have a draft this year.

It's a definite step in the right direction.

I wish the Williams trade wouldve fetched someone who can hit at least. I mean, Calder?? Ick. I understand the positive end of it being a Williams salary dump for next year, but i have a hard time believing Calder was the only guy we could get. For a team lacking physical players...why him, thats my problem, you know? The 3rd/4th line couldve REALLY used somebody. I'll just try and look at the bright side i guess in that we at least got 1 guy who's a physical presence..because i do like Bertuzzi. I am a little leery though about how physical he'll play with his back problems though.

[Dominator2005 558]

Great deadline acquisitions and we are a MUCH better suited team for the playoffs. Thank you Mr. Holland for doing your job!!!

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Lou,

I define soft as someone that can't take or give a check and refuses to skate in the traffic areas. Do you have a diff definition?

Sure Dats isn't going to hammer anyone, but obviously that's not his game. Willie, who was the biggest ***** of the lot, is gone. Huds doesn't check real hard, but he skates in the traffic areas. Franzen, Homer? Not soft. Zets? Not soft. Maltby, Draper? Not soft. I think you are one of those fans that goes "ooh and ahh" when some forward lays a big body check and completely forgets the puck and/or defensive responsibilities.

As a case ion point, they were not a "soft" team the other night against the Preds which is the closest we have been to a playoff game so far this year. Now imagine that same effort minus Willie + a reasonably healthy Bert and we should be fine. I'm curious as to what team you feel is sufficiently "hard" out there?

Well, Anaheim and San Jose are two prime examples. Im not saying you have to be as physical as the Ducks, but thats a team with very few players i'd label as soft. "Soft" to me is pretty much a general term thats directed to guys who dont hit, will never fight, ...and just as a whole dont really play physical. Datsyuk would the prime example of a soft player, as well someone like Lang. Sorry, yes Zetterberg too. Im not even sure i can recall the last time i seen a hit out of Draper..

I may be that oooh and ahh guy you're referring to, but way too many times do i see the Wings completely give up the chance to lay a hit. In the playoffs you need to be out there bangin' to wear the other team down!

[Rice 42]

Well, Anaheim and San Jose are two prime examples. Im not saying you have to be as physical as the Ducks, but thats a team with very few players i'd label as soft. "Soft" to me is pretty much a general term thats directed to guys who dont hit, will never fight, ...and just as a whole dont really play physical. Datsyuk would the prime example of a soft player, as well someone like Lang. Sorry, yes Zetterberg too. Im not even sure i can recall the last time i seen a hit out of Draper..

I may be that oooh and ahh guy you're referring to, but way too many times do i see the Wings completely give up the chance to lay a hit. In the playoffs you need to be out there bangin' to wear the other team down!

Dropping the gloves doesn't matter in the playoffs. You may not call a guy like Calder gritty, but from what I saw of him in Chicago and what I've heard about him from fans and Holland I think he is. Would you call Yzerman soft? Gritty? To me, Yzerman is the definition of grit. He got the job done even when he was getting physically punished. That's all that matters. If you have a big guy that fights but he wilts when the competition steps up a notch, who cares?

[norrisnick 1]

Well, Anaheim and San Jose are two prime examples. Im not saying you have to be as physical as the Ducks, but thats a team with very few players i'd label as soft. "Soft" to me is pretty much a general term thats directed to guys who dont hit, will never fight, ...and just as a whole dont really play physical. Datsyuk would the prime example of a soft player, as well someone like Lang. Sorry, yes Zetterberg too. Im not even sure i can recall the last time i seen a hit out of Draper..

I may be that oooh and ahh guy you're referring to, but way too many times do i see the Wings completely give up the chance to lay a hit. In the playoffs you need to be out there bangin' to wear the other team down!

You're confusing aggression with grit. If you can take a hit, go into traffic areas, dig a puck out of the corner, etc... you aren't soft. Quite a few of our guys can do that. What we dont' have is very many aggressive players that will intentionally seek out contact and all that, but there are two sides to the grit issue. Those that can take a hit are grittier than guys that can dish one out, but not take it.

[Manoir 70]

Great work by Holland.

However, keep in mind had Shanahan re-signed with Detroit (as Holland desperately wanted), the Wings wouldn't have been in a position to get Bertuzzi.

[betterREDthandead 58]

You're confusing aggression with grit. If you can take a hit, go into traffic areas, dig a puck out of the corner, etc... you aren't soft. Quite a few of our guys can do that. What we dont' have is very many aggressive players that will intentionally seek out contact and all that, but there are two sides to the grit issue. Those that can take a hit are grittier than guys that can dish one out, but not take it.

BINGO. My definition of toughness, grit, etc., has always been the ability to impose your will on the puck and occupy the space on the ice that you want to occupy, and the ability to prevent the other team from doing the same. Grit is whatever it takes to do that.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Doubting Holland is a thing of the past. Let by gones be by gones. HOWEVER, our underachieving last 3 playoff seasons were a reason on why we doubted him at the time. Our lack of grit and lack of passion was a concern, and was triggered at Holland. I don't regret doubting Holland, or in better words, holding a grudge. I don't regret it because of our last 3 playoff failures, but he bounced back and did what he could.

I'm not sorry for doubting him in the past, I had every reason to. By gones are by gones, and negatives have turned into positives. Good job, Kenny.

[Turretin 0]

Forget it.

Edited February 27, 2007 by Turretin

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

My support for Holland has faded over recent seasons, but I haven't been one of those people that constantly kick him in the rear, blaming him left/right for a guy possibly signing somewhere else or a trade not quite happening the way we want it to.

I'm not one of those people who want all tough guys/enforcer types, but you have to admit he hasn't been superb at addressing this issue in recent seasons.

When he signed Hasek this offseason, my support for him was going down fast due to Hasek's health uncertainty/past drama here, and when he signed Greg Johnson (nothing against Johnson), he really got low on my totem pole because I really didn't think it was addressing anything the Wings needed.

At least for this season, you have to admit he's done a pretty respectable job.

Hasek's remained healthy (knock on wood) and was signed for cheap.

Danny Markov has proved to be worth the investment so far, a good low-key signing IMO.

While I don't like Bertuzzi personally and lost a lot of respect for him due to the you-know-what incident (which I DO NOT want this thread to derail to), if he can shake off his hernia, I think he'll excel on a 2nd line. I still think he has the nasty edge in him.

So, I don't want to say I was really doubting Holland, but I wasn't going to act shocked if a bid deal wasn't going to get done by the deadline. Glad I was wrong to an extent.

[Saran 1]

soo many holland haters here, common guys (you know who u are) apologize

[Kp-Wings 3]

I have to hand it to Kenny. He certainly proved me wrong. Not just Calder, but Bertuzzi too.

Good job Kenny!

[Naslund19 0]

It's been a while since I've been on here...but wow! I can't believe Holland F-I-N-A-L-L-Y got what we need. We were lacking this kind of size for so long. This is perfect! So, dish me up a nice size plate of crow...I'm quite hungry, so....gimmie some!!!

Its about time, Kenny!

[Guest Crymson]

I wish the Williams trade wouldve fetched someone who can hit at least. I mean, Calder?? Ick. I understand the positive end of it being a Williams salary dump for next year, but i have a hard time believing Calder was the only guy we could get. For a team lacking physical players...why him, thats my problem, you know? The 3rd/4th line couldve REALLY used somebody. I'll just try and look at the bright side i guess in that we at least got 1 guy who's a physical presence..because i do like Bertuzzi. I am a little leery though about how physical he'll play with his back problems though.

We cannot obtain 16 late-90s Peter Forsbergs. Very few players are all of physical, productive, and affordable.

[theman19 47]

munches happily on crow,......after last years trade deadline where nothing was address adn we got pwned again i was ready to throw him out,..but we got two huge high reward low risk trades and i for one am pretty excited

[Cruiser008 37]

OMG I should be getting served with enough crow for a week now. You'll all remember how badly I ripped on Holland for his to unwillingness to acquire grit, his disgusting habit of giving up 1st rounders during the trading deadline and his man-love affairs with our small skilled forwards. Well I still think we have too many soft guys but we've improved by leaps and bounds in the past 30 hours.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Well, it's been 3 years in the making but I am finally happy after the trade deadline. I'm glad to see that Holland finally addressed our need. However, I will reserve judgement of any kind because all that really matters to me is how we do in the playoffs.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

It appears that what i consider gritty is different than everyone else....aggressiveness and not passing up chances to hit is part of it for me. Im not just being a hater, ive had issues with the team and Bertuzzi helps (key word)to address some of them...but doesnt solve them. He cant do it alone. Calder doesnt do anything for me. Also, i mean what if Bertuzzi plays a couple games, re-injures himself and thats it? Then all of a sudden, you're back with the same old team with no physical presence at all. Thats why i just dont get why they didnt get at least 1 other guy for the 3rd or 4th line...

We cannot obtain 16 late-90s Peter Forsbergs. Very few players are all of physical, productive, and affordable.

One or two guys who at least hit consistently and bring a little toughness on the 3rd and 4th line doesnt require Peter Forsbergs.

[Rice 42]

Also, i mean what if Bertuzzi plays a couple games, re-injures himself and thats it? Then all of a sudden, you're back with the same old team with no physical presence at all. Thats why i just dont get why they didnt get at least 1 other guy for the 3rd or 4th line...

If Bertuzzi goes down I fail to see how one 3rd or 4th line banger would help this team that much. Why sacrifice the pick?

[Lou_Siffer 1]

If Bertuzzi goes down I fail to see how one 3rd or 4th line banger would help this team that much. Why sacrifice the pick?

I just think it would help to have a guy playing that role.The 2nd for Mayers i dont think was all that much, sure it was overpriced but its not that crazy. I mean what would his going rate be any other time during the season? I'd peg it at around a 3rd. I dont know much about Carcillo to know if they Pens gave up alot for Laraque and if we couldve topped that.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I just think it would help to have a guy playing that role.The 2nd for Mayers i dont think was all that much, sure it was overpriced but its not that crazy. I mean what would his going rate be any other time during the season? I'd peg it at around a 3rd. I dont know much about Carcillo to know if they Pens gave up alot for Laraque and if we couldve topped that.

Would giving up a lot for Laraque, who has actually stated he is tired of fighting to begin with, really have been worth it?

Be a little serious here. I really think you're basing the thought of grit just on fighting ability. Maybe you're not, but just by looking at what you say, I personally think you are. The only fighter that I think would have been remotely worth picking up would be Fedoruk, and who says the Flyers would want to give him up? So then what? We sell a boatload of draft picks or prospects just to give Philly a deal they can't refuse? What's the point of that? Fedoruk has shown a little offensive ability this year, but he's not tearing it up out there. And you're out of your mind if you think Philly would even consider trading someone like Ben Eager. He's a typical Flyers player. So what else is there to do?

I'd like to also touch on the subject of Mayers too. He plays for a team who is in our a division, and this team is owned by a man who can't stand the owner of the Red Wings. Honestly, very low chances the Blues would want to trade him to us.

Edit: And also to note, Fedoruk is a UFA after this season. Again, trading future players or picks is not an advised thing to do, especially in the so-called new NHL.

Edited February 28, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Guest Crymson]

Would giving up a lot for Laraque, who has actually stated he is tired of fighting to begin with, really have been worth it?

Be a little serious here. I really think you're basing the thought of grit just on fighting ability. Maybe you're not, but just by looking at what you say, I personally think you are. The only fighter that I think would have been remotely worth picking up would be Fedoruk, and who says the Flyers would want to give him up? So then what? We sell a boatload of draft picks or prospects just to give Philly a deal they can't refuse? What's the point of that? Fedoruk has shown a little offensive ability this year, but he's not tearing it up out there. And you're out of your mind if you think Philly would even consider trading someone like Ben Eager. He's a typical Flyers player. So what else is there to do?

I'd like to also touch on the subject of Mayers too. He plays for a team who is in our a division, and this team is owned by a man who can't stand the owner of the Red Wings. Honestly, very low chances the Blues would want to trade him to us.

Edit: And also to note, Fedoruk is a UFA after this season. Again, trading future players or picks is not an advised thing to do, especially in the so-called new NHL.

But Lou wants the oompa-loompa NOW, daddy!!!!

Edited February 28, 2007 by Crymson

[theman19 47]

grit is a team effort lou, one or two guys wouldn't keep SJ from beating the stuffing out our guys (they wouldn't hurt either,..but,...you get what i'm saying)