Bertuzzi ethics... help settle an argument

[vladyfan 0]

I am back... and NOT the hubby.

Thanks for the debate. I had used the same examples of speeding or running a red light. I used boarding and used Emory with his slash in the guys face a couple weeks ago. I suppose you won't ever change some minds.

I personally think that Bert has earned some forgiveness. I hope it all goes well. I sure remember when we HATED Brett Hull, and Chelios, and Hatcher, but boy were we glad they were on the home team!!

(well, maybe not Hatch, as that did not work out too well!!)

[Zetter is Better 0]

Here is the biggest factor in the 'was Bertuzzi suspended enough' discussion:

Bertuzzi's assault has been compared to McSorley on Brasher more than any other.

What was McSorley's suspension?

McSorley was suspended for life for his hit on Brashear.

Corrrect me if I`m wrong but, McSorley wan`t suspended for life. He was suspended for a while but no one picked him up or wanted him on their team.

[Dominator2005 558]

I would put the blame on NHL for that incident. When Moore took out Naslud with late head hunting hit - NHL didn't give him suspension. Naslund missed some action due to head injury... next game these two teams played... May wanted to go with Moore, Bertuzzi, Jovanovski... bur Moore decided to go with Cooke... after that Bertuzzi sucker punched a guy who went after his captain and that's it... It was NHL fault for this incident... they should give suspension to Moore for his hit on Naslund...

[Mors 201]

Unfortunately, you are talking to a real life litigator. Yikes. So since I did not use the internet, I will thank you for complimenting me on my massive intellect! The fact is, you can argue over damages all you want, but you have no clue what the actual damages were, and I am telling you from experience, 20M actually isn't a huge amount for a personal injury case where the spine was broken, especially with explicit intent. You seem to be backing off of your comment (which you should) where you attacked Moore for asking way more than he was entitled to as a "4th line scrub." I am glad to see that.

Lastly, do not conflate the issues of the validity of Moore's claim with how Bertuzzi should respond. Because I have faith in the legal system, I think not only should Bertuzzi fight it to the best of his ability, he should not be punished further than that which the judicial system has meted out. Don't worry about it, I have made comments I wish I hadn't in the past too. I just wanted to show you that it is not clear that Moore is asking more than he is entitled to. Spinal surgery is a rare expertise, and those surgeons are expensive. Not to mention everything else...

EDIT: spelling.

I'm not backing off my comments by any means, but I am attempting to let the discussion die because I don't see any point in coming back to this when we're obviously not going to agree. As I said before, I wasn't the original poster to comment on the high amount of his lawsuit, and if you do a little research you'll see that this same argument regarding the figures is raging on forums elsewhere.

I honestly don't care how callous it sounds to you, I will stand by my statement that Moore was and would have continued to be a "4th line scrub" for the remainder of his career had the incident never occurred. He played in a total of 69 games in 4 seasons, and I doubt he was making more than the league minimum salary (~$450k).

You also continue to imply that Moore is on the hook for all of these medical and rehab. bills, which seems incredibly unlikely to me. As another poster chimed in, he was still a member of the Avalanche at the time...

Your implication that I should quietly slink away because I regret my previous comments is incredibly condescending...because you claim to be a RL Litigator, on the internet, obviously you know for a fact that Moore has "millions in medical bills" just waiting to be paid, which is laughable. He was released from the hospital 2 weeks after the day he was injured, let's not get it twisted here...he had 3 fractured vertebrae, his spine wasn't ripped out of his back and snapped in half.

You are right in one respect though, I do regret getting involved in the discussion at all at this point, because the bottom line is, Bertuzzi is on our team now, and that's not going to change. People opposed to it are just going to have to accept it.

[dicksmack 33]

Vladyfan said that Moore is "crippled" (so-called). Is that true? I am aware that he hasn't played hockey again, that there was some possible nerve damage. Recently, his brother Dominic said that Steve is not currently "doing much of anything." Would that change if he received a settlement? I would be sad if he really is debilitated and his motives are being questioned. It's his responsibility to get the medical evidence out there to counter this. There is so much at stake it's hard to tell. But Moore is a Harvard grad so he must have some sort of plan B, no?

[Zetter is Better 0]

Vladyfan said that Moore is "crippled" (so-called). Is that true? I am aware that he hasn't played hockey again, that there was some possible nerve damage. Recently, his brother Dominic said that Steve is not currently "doing much of anything." Would that change if he received a settlement? I would be sad if he really is debilitated and his motives are being questioned. It's his responsibility to get the medical evidence out there to counter this. There is so much at stake it's hard to tell. But Moore is a Harvard grad so he must have some sort of plan B, no?

Yeah, He`s not crippled, but he has a limited mobility. I have been wondering because didn`t his family start a trial or something (like sueing Bert) when Bert made team Canada ??? Anyone no what happened with that?

[Turretin 0]

medical bills??

his bills are covered by the Avs, the injury happened while he was playing for them

also im pretty sure he other forms of comp from the league and PA

I'm not backing off my comments by any means, but I am attempting to let the discussion die because I don't see any point in coming back to this when we're obviously not going to agree. As I said before, I wasn't the original poster to comment on the high amount of his lawsuit, and if you do a little research you'll see that this same argument regarding the figures is raging on forums elsewhere.

I honestly don't care how callous it sounds to you, I will stand by my statement that Moore was and would have continued to be a "4th line scrub" for the remainder of his career had the incident never occurred. He played in a total of 69 games in 4 seasons, and I doubt he was making more than the league minimum salary (~$450k).

You also continue to imply that Moore is on the hook for all of these medical and rehab. bills, which seems incredibly unlikely to me. As another poster chimed in, he was still a member of the Avalanche at the time...

Your implication that I should quietly slink away because I regret my previous comments is incredibly condescending...because you claim to be a RL Litigator, on the internet, obviously you know for a fact that Moore has "millions in medical bills" just waiting to be paid, which is laughable. He was released from the hospital 2 weeks after the day he was injured, let's not get it twisted here...he had 3 fractured vertebrae, his spine wasn't ripped out of his back and snapped in half.

You are right in one respect though, I do regret getting involved in the discussion at all at this point, because the bottom line is, Bertuzzi is on our team now, and that's not going to change. People opposed to it are just going to have to accept it.

Alright guys, I won't make too big a deal out of this. Suffice it to say, that is not how insurance works. If the Avs paid Moore's bills because of their contractual relationship, he is almost always bound to press charges against an intentional tortfeasor.

[Chairman Maouth 97]

Turretin....

I'm repeating this post of mine from page 1. Judging by what you've written about "broken spines", "spinal surgery", and the high cost of spinal surgeons, there's no way you could have seen it.

-----------------------

Bertuzzi certainly didn't intend to injure Moore to the extent that he did. Anyone who claims that Bertuzzi tried to break Moore's neck is an idiot or an Avs fan. And much has been made about Moore's broken neck but it was never as serious from a medical standpoint as many people claimed. There were 2 small undisplaced right-sided C3 and C4 transverse process fractures that required nothing more than for Moore to take it to easy for them to heal. Sometimes these fractures even go undiagnosed for a period of time.

The neck has not been what has kept Moore out of hockey. The only thing holding him back now is post-concussion syndrome; common among NHL'ers and commonly recovered from, especially after an initial concussion like Moore's. And interestingly enough, commonly recovered from in a far shorter time than it's taking Moore to recover.

I know. I'm sounding sceptical of Moore's injuries, but the vast majority of athletes who suffer a first moderate concussion go on to recover to play again. With a massive lawsuit launched by a player whose earning potential in the NHL would have never matched what he could have made in the lawsuit -- damn-right I'm sceptical.

But I hated what Bertuzzi did and it was a major meltdown on his part. He apologized and I felt it was sincere so as a Canucks fan and a forgiving person, I forgave him the same way I forgave Marty McSorley. I've seen Bertuzzi compared to pedophiles and murderers. The man has been truly vilified because of the publicity surrounding a player of his calibre and the injuries suffered by Moore. In my opinion he's paid his dues and it's time to move on. Hope he entertains you all very well and doesn't have too much of an impact against the Canucks.

-----------------------

This post of yours was much better than the one I was addressing. Well done.

If you don't like the term of his suspension, you should be mad at Bettman, not Bertuzzi.

If you don't like the sentencing of his criminal trial, you should be mad at the Canadian jurisprudence system, not Bertuzzi.

If you don't like that he is using the adversarial system to determine how much money he should pay Moore, you should be mad at the common law, not Bertuzzi.

The only argument you have left against Bertuzzi, is that he should punish himself. However, not only does that punish Bertuzzi and his family, it punishes Moore's chances of getting even a fraction of the civil suit's reward. Further, I think that opinions like that punish all of society. If we really want people to pay their dues and then become productive members of society, we cannot eviscerate them from that one thing which they received education and training to contribute in. Self flagellation is a lose-lose-lose.

Edited March 4, 2007 by One of the Few

[USAFWingedWheel 4]

any red wing fan that has anything bad to say about that hit on Moore is a hypocrite, because i can guarantee that none of you were bitching when Mac beat the crap out of claude....and please don't say that it wasn't that bad, the only difference in that incident was that claude got lucky and didn't get seriously hurt....

[Dominator2005 558]

any red wing fan that has anything bad to say about that hit on Moore is a hypocrite, because i can guarantee that none of you were bitching when Mac beat the crap out of claude....and please don't say that it wasn't that bad, the only difference in that incident was that claude got lucky and didn't get seriously hurt....

Well said!!!

[dicksmack 33]

any red wing fan that has anything bad to say about that hit on Moore is a hypocrite, because i can guarantee that none of you were bitching when Mac beat the crap out of claude....and please don't say that it wasn't that bad, the only difference in that incident was that claude got lucky and didn't get seriously hurt....

I think there are some basic differences between the Lemieux hit on Draper and the Moore hit on Naslund. Here's why.

The Moore hit was an open-ice check, whereas Lemieux drove Draper's face into the boards. There's nothing good that can be said for a hit from behind: It's usually an attempt to injure the player and you have the guy basically dead to rights, as he can't defend himself. By contrast, an open-ice check has a much larger margin for error since the guy can see the hit coming and he's not confined to the boards area; the guy can try to evade the hit. Sometimes the open-ice checker will stick out a knee or bring his hands or elbow up (which Moore kind of did) when the intended target tries to move at the last second.

Also, since a game was played by Van and Colorado in between the Moore hit and the Bertuzzi retribution game without incident, I question whether the Moore incident would have even happened if the Nucks weren't being spanked 8-2 at home. I think the blowout in front of the home fans exacerbated the situation significantly.

The other thing is, Lemieux decided to fight whereas Moore ran away. But personally I'd find Bertuzzi a bit more intimidating than Mac... Moore would still get clobbered but it wouldn't have been as bad if he tried to fight back. The Moore hit, if it was penalized, wouldn't have needed to be dealt with by a fight. There's nothing to do to Claude but fight him for that obvious attempt to injure.

Edited March 5, 2007 by dicksmack

[Chairman Maouth 97]

Also, since a game was played by Van and Colorado in between the Moore hit and the Bertuzzi retribution game without incident, I question whether the Moore incident would have even happened if the Nucks weren't being spanked 8-2 at home. I think the blowout in front of the home fans exacerbated the situation significantly.

All very true.

Also, it was the last meeting of the regular season between Vancouver and Colorado and the last chance for any goonery outside the playoffs. I'm sure that was also on their minds along with the 8-2 score. And even if Vancouver and Colorado did meet in the playoffs, that wouldn't be the place to collect on any outstanding debts. That game was the last chance of the year to collect and like it or not, the best chance to settle a debt like that is when the games outcome has already been decided. The writing was on the wall; blowout game and last chance of the season.

Edited March 5, 2007 by One of the Few

[dicksmack 33]

All very true.

Also, it was the last meeting of the regular season between Vancouver and Colorado and the last chance for any goonery outside the playoffs. I'm sure that was also on their mind along with the 8-2 score. And even if Vancouver and Colorado did meet in the playoffs, that wouldn't be the place to collect on any outstanding debts. That game was the last chance of the year to collect.

Good point.

[wingslogo19 281]

All very true.

Also, it was the last meeting of the regular season between Vancouver and Colorado and the last chance for any goonery outside the playoffs. I'm sure that was also on their mind along with the 8-2 score. And even if Vancouver and Colorado did meet in the playoffs, that wouldn't be the place to collect on any outstanding debts. That game was the last chance of the year to collect.

The score was actually 9-2 just to clear this up

[Chairman Maouth 97]

The score was actually 9-2 just to clear this up

It felt like 14-2.

[dicksmack 33]

The score was actually 9-2 just to clear this up

Was # 9 an empty-netter? With Crow, ya never know...

[Flip-check 6]

I am back... and NOT the hubby.

Thanks for the debate. I had used the same examples of speeding or running a red light. I used boarding and used Emory with his slash in the guys face a couple weeks ago. I suppose you won't ever change some minds.

Yeah, it does suck. You just gotta be patient with people if you don't. It sounds like he thinks it's a big deal though, "all this s***"?

He's got a good conscience about it though, a good will about thinking Bert should be dealing with a huger amount of guilt lifelong, 'cos there are some people out there who'd just as soon (ignorantly) applaud Bert for some half-cocked reason... trust me, I've seen way enough of that out there. Luckily this is one of those things that totally doesn't impact relationships! Or shouldn't!

Edited March 5, 2007 by Flip-check

[wingslogo19 281]

Was # 9 an empty-netter? With Crow, ya never know...

it was 9-2 for the Avs but that game was crazy i ended up fighting an avs fan

[CrazyCanuck 0]

I think there is no real answer to this question because obviously since Bertuzzi is now a Wing, many of you say "oh it was a long time ago and he needs to be forgiven." I agree with this, and so do Vancouver fans.

BUT most fans of other teams in the NHL hate Bertuzzi and will never forgive him. Last year I came to a Canucks game in Detroit and everyone boo'd him when he would touch the puck (and boo'd even louder when we won the game!). If this was asked a year ago, most of you would think completely differently, whether you want to admit it or not.

[DETMURDS 7]

What he did was hockey's fault in allowing this type of revenge I hate to say. I think he is now a bit gun shy and hope it doesn't keep him from "playing his game"!

He is a great player however!

Edited March 5, 2007 by DETMURDS

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I think there are some basic differences between the Lemieux hit on Draper and the Moore hit on Naslund. Here's why.

The Moore hit was an open-ice check, whereas Lemieux drove Draper's face into the boards. There's nothing good that can be said for a hit from behind: It's usually an attempt to injure the player and you have the guy basically dead to rights, as he can't defend himself. By contrast, an open-ice check has a much larger margin for error since the guy can see the hit coming and he's not confined to the boards area; the guy can try to evade the hit. Sometimes the open-ice checker will stick out a knee or bring his hands or elbow up (which Moore kind of did) when the intended target tries to move at the last second.

Also, since a game was played by Van and Colorado in between the Moore hit and the Bertuzzi retribution game without incident, I question whether the Moore incident would have even happened if the Nucks weren't being spanked 8-2 at home. I think the blowout in front of the home fans exacerbated the situation significantly.

The other thing is, Lemieux decided to fight whereas Moore ran away. But personally I'd find Bertuzzi a bit more intimidating than Mac... Moore would still get clobbered but it wouldn't have been as bad if he tried to fight back. The Moore hit, if it was penalized, wouldn't have needed to be dealt with by a fight. There's nothing to do to Claude but fight him for that obvious attempt to injure.

Dude, I'm not sure how you came to your conclusions.

1. Are you saying that since the Lemieux hit was from behind that means the McCarty beat down is justified. And because the Moore hit was an open ice hit then nobody should've gone after him? I don't quite get the point of your 1st paragraph in relation to the debate about McCarty sucker punching Lemeiux.

2. Your second paragraph baffles me also. So what if there was a game played in between. You realize the Wings and Aves played more than one game against each other after the Lemieux hit. It was something astronomical, like 300 days later that McCarty beat down Lemieux. If retribution is sought, its gonna get doled out eventually.

3. In your last paragraph, where do you get that Lemieux decided to fight? You call getting sucker punched in the face, turtling, getting beatin on the back of your head, dragged into the boards and kneed in the face "deciding to fight". To me that sounds like deciding to get your ass kicked but trying to limit the amount of pain.

I think you are trying to say that it was okay for McCarty too cheap shot Lemieux because his hit on Draper was intended to hurt him. Sorry, I think there's a lot of flaws in your argument.

[dicksmack 33]

Dude, I'm not sure how you came to your conclusions.

1. Are you saying that since the Lemieux hit was from behind that means the McCarty beat down is justified. And because the Moore hit was an open ice hit then nobody should've gone after him? I don't quite get the point of your 1st paragraph in relation to the debate about McCarty sucker punching Lemeiux.

2. Your second paragraph baffles me also. So what if there was a game played in between. You realize the Wings and Aves played more than one game against each other after the Lemieux hit. It was something astronomical, like 300 days later that McCarty beat down Lemieux. If retribution is sought, its gonna get doled out eventually.

3. In your last paragraph, where do you get that Lemieux decided to fight? You call getting sucker punched in the face, turtling, getting beatin on the back of your head, dragged into the boards and kneed in the face "deciding to fight". To me that sounds like deciding to get your ass kicked but trying to limit the amount of pain.

I think you are trying to say that it was okay for McCarty too cheap shot Lemieux because his hit on Draper was intended to hurt him. Sorry, I think there's a lot of flaws in your argument.

Not really, loosen your chinstrap a bit. Obviously I'm saying Mac was more justified. When a guy goes for an open ice check, he sometimes has to lunge a bit if the guy tries to evade it. The intent is to try to still make contact with guy and not miss him and look dumb. Maybe the guy hits high or knees him, ok? A vicious hit from behind shows intent to injure, no two ways about it. There's no comparing the two hits. Look at the results. Naslund had a small cut and a mild concussion, Draper needed reconstructive surgery; no call for Moore vs a match penalty and a (too short) suspension. The time in between the hit on Draper and the Mac beating of Lemieux had to do with them not playing again until the following year. Nothing but frontier justice was needed in this case, I don't mind saying it.

I think the Moore thing could have been avoided if the refs called it or if the Av's didn't spank the Nucks so badly at home. Also, Bertuzzi chased Moore all around the ice--I remember thinking "he better turn and fight."

[The Enforcer 13]

My husband and I are going round and round about Bert playing still in the league after he hit Moore and ended his career. He states that he deliberately choose to sucker punch someone and ended their career. I stated that while I don't like what happened, it did and Bert has paid his dues. My hubby thinks that he should have retired and never played again; I say that it is no different than a hit from behind that hurt someone. Does anyone have any stats about career ending injuries on the ice due to hits? He did not intend to deliberately cripple the guy, it happened... help?? Thoughts?

Going back to the incident, and knowing Moore as the cheap shot artist he was (Naslund, ect..) Bertuzzi was acting in the heat of the moment. Moore's neck was fractured by the rest of the Avs jumping on top of Bertuzzi, not from the punch... (proven fact) Hockey is a very emotional sport, and we all know what happened on March 26, 1997. I have no Ill will towards Bert, because anybody that's played the game will understand, Tempers will flare. Time to put this away.

[The Enforcer 13]

OK, let's clear a few things up here.

I'm Vladyfan's husband, I'm the guy that made all this s*** happen:

My point: If I were the guy, that crippled another guy, AS A DIRECT FUGGIN' RESULT OF BREAKING THE GOD DAMN RULES, I don't know if I could continue to skate professionally.

That's pretty simple to understand, right?

I would like to believe that I would have enough integrity to walk away from the game.

I should not be out there skating around enjoying myself.

I should not be able to earn a living playing a game.

It should affect me to the point where I quit the game, at least to the point until the other guy is able to come back.

Doesn't matter if he's a ham and egger, or a first line starter.

I crippled a guy, through my own disregard for the rules.

Please don't dredge up any stupid arguement about Moore not wanting to fight.

He cheap-shotted him, from behind, and it did not work out for the best.

Bottom line: Intention to f*** with someone= serious injury.

How can you defend that?

But hey, that's just me.

The only problem with that is that the most of the injuries were caused by the clowns that jumped on top of Bert. You might as well sue everybody on the ice at the time.

[Guest Don Corleone]

My husband and I are going round and round about Bert playing still in the league after he hit Moore and ended his career. He states that he deliberately choose to sucker punch someone and ended their career. I stated that while I don't like what happened, it did and Bert has paid his dues. My hubby thinks that he should have retired and never played again; I say that it is no different than a hit from behind that hurt someone. Does anyone have any stats about career ending injuries on the ice due to hits? He did not intend to deliberately cripple the guy, it happened... help?? Thoughts?

The league should've had the guts to stand up and suspend him for life. He got a token suspension and then the lockout. That was it!!!.

He should've never been allowed to lace 'em up ion the NHL again. Let him go overseas.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Don Corleone