Bertuzzi ethics... help settle an argument

[DetroitNativePride 0]

My dad and I go back and forth with the same discussion. Although my dad thinks that the Red Wings need someone with Bertuzzi's grit, he didn't think that Todd should have been playing in the league before Tuesday, so he doesn't want to change his opinion just because he's a Red Wing.

Personally, I won't ever say that what he did was right, but at the same time it's in the past and like he said, it's for him to deal with, not Detroit.

[ZigZagYourTorso 8]

You can't hate the guy for what he did. McCarty did the same thing to Lemeieux. Just the ending results weren't the same. I mean it wasn't a sucker punch to the back of the head. But it was an unexpected punch to the face. But hey....I still love watching that coward turtle up over and over again =)

[Barrie 900]

Everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

[Zetter is Better 0]

Nor did it do the real damage. This debate is old and settled. It was the punch and driving Moore's face into the ice. Period. Don't start to sound like NUCKleheads now... Bert meant to hurt to him and did so; there's no way around it. He totally lost it. But I doubt he expected to cause permanent, career-ending damage. And what a career! Moore was a marginal player, let's face it. I think it's a fair question to ask, whether he would make out better in a courtroom or the icerink in the long run... The fact that Moore looked like a mealy-mouthed little weasel with his neckbrace on afterward should have no bearing on the situation. Ahem... but I digress.

I agree, thats why I said three people jumping on a guy with a broken neck would not make the situation any better.

You can't hate the guy for what he did. McCarty did the same thing to Lemeieux. Just the ending results weren't the same. I mean it wasn't a sucker punch to the back of the head. But it was an unexpected punch to the face. But hey....I still love watching that coward turtle up over and over again =)

Lemieux deserved 100% of that reach down beat down. It wan`t a sucker punch by D Mac, Lemieux just didn`t want to fight and he turtled.

[JKEITH81 0]

Even if Bert wasn't a Wing, I agree with everyone who thinks Todd has been punished enough. But man, I thought there'd be at least one entirely pro-Moore post. You know, to maybe spur the debate a little.

[hockey&beer 16]

Bert has paid his dues for what was an unfortunate accident.... YES, he purposely punched Moore in the back of the head but the outcome was accidental. Every NHL game similar "sucker punches" occur and rarely causes injury. And as far as I am concerned, I like Bert's view point that it has nothing to do with the Wing's, its a personal problem and keep it that way.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

As opposed to Cam Janssen...who you just said in another thread should be thrown out of the league. Consistency please my friend...CONSISTENCY!

[eva unit zero 271]

You can't hate the guy for what he did. McCarty did the same thing to Lemeieux. Just the ending results weren't the same. I mean it wasn't a sucker punch to the back of the head. But it was an unexpected punch to the face. But hey....I still love watching that coward turtle up over and over again =)

Yes, McCarty sucker punched Lemieux to star tthe whole thing.

The difference is this:

Bertuzzi had been doggin Moore about fighting and Moore declined, and was rejoining the play when Bertuzzi punched him in the back of the head and drove him face-first into the ice. McCarty clocked Lemieux in the face, and if you watch the video you posted, Lemieux saw it coming and tried to dodge and block it. Moore didn't know Bertuzzi was going to hit him until he woke up with a broken neck.

Also, McCarty went after Lemieux because Lemieux had viciously cross checked two Wings into the boards from behind the previous year, one resulting in a career-threatening injury. Moore laid a clean, open ice hit on Markus Naslund. yes, Naslund was injured, but guess what? Naslund played the next game between the two teams, which was about two weeks later.

Moore had also already went toe to toe with Matt Cooke, while Lemieux had squared off with nobody.

[redwingfan19 293]

Yeah that Cam Janssen hit last night was viscious, The players and refs didn't even see it, the puck was long gone and he blind sided Kaberle. IMO thats just as bad as what bertuzzi did. Until they get rid of the instigator rule this kind of stuff will just keep happening. Cheap shots are always going to happen, its a sad part of a game, the problem needs to be dealt with when it happens. Exp. Probert punching someone out for touching Stevie. Not 2 weeks down the road when you play the team again and have time to sit on the situation and dwell on it. Thats when the attacks get even more terrible and are "premeditated".

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Yeah that Cam Janssen hit last night was viscious, The players and refs didn't even see it, the puck was long gone and he blind sided Kaberle. IMO thats just as bad as what bertuzzi did. Until they get rid of the instigator rule this kind of stuff will just keep happening. Cheap shots are always going to happen, its a sad part of a game, the problem needs to be dealt with when it happens. Exp. Probert punching someone out for touching Stevie. Not 2 weeks down the road when you play the team again and have time to sit on the situation and dwell on it. Thats when the attacks get even more terrible and are "premeditated".

Change the avatar! lol. I totally thought that you were Heaton, i was confused for a second because it really didnt seem like a Heaton post as i was reading it.

[redwingfan19 293]

LOL ok I guess I'll try to find something more original. I see he's been here a while, senoirity rules, lol.

[eva unit zero 271]

Here is the biggest factor in the 'was Bertuzzi suspended enough' discussion:

Bertuzzi's assault has been compared to McSorley on Brasher more than any other.

What was McSorley's suspension?

McSorley was suspended for life for his hit on Brashear.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Yes, McCarty sucker punched Lemieux to star tthe whole thing.

The difference is this:

Bertuzzi had been doggin Moore about fighting and Moore declined, and was rejoining the play when Bertuzzi punched him in the back of the head and drove him face-first into the ice. McCarty clocked Lemieux in the face, and if you watch the video you posted, Lemieux saw it coming and tried to dodge and block it. Moore didn't know Bertuzzi was going to hit him until he woke up with a broken neck.

Also, McCarty went after Lemieux because Lemieux had viciously cross checked two Wings into the boards from behind the previous year, one resulting in a career-threatening injury. Moore laid a clean, open ice hit on Markus Naslund. yes, Naslund was injured, but guess what? Naslund played the next game between the two teams, which was about two weeks later.

Moore had also already went toe to toe with Matt Cooke, while Lemieux had squared off with nobody.

Eva, i'm sorry but the way you defend the Mac incident makes you just look like a complete homer. A cheap shot is a cheap shot no matter if they're wearing a Wings jersey. McCarty punched in the face a player who wasn't looking for a fight nor was expecting to get punched in the face at that moment. Sure, he may have "seen" it coming but just because he had 3/100ths of a second to realize he was gonna get clocked doesn't mean it wasn't a cheap shot.

Don't get me wrong it was the greatest thing ever but from an objective pov it was still a cheap shot sucker punch.

[Turretin 0]

If you don't like the term of his suspension, you should be mad at Bettman, not Bertuzzi.

If you don't like the sentencing of his criminal trial, you should be mad at the Canadian jurisprudence system, not Bertuzzi.

If you don't like that he is using the adversarial system to determine how much money he should pay Moore, you should be mad at the common law, not Bertuzzi.

The only argument you have left against Bertuzzi, is that he should punish himself. However, not only does that punish Bertuzzi and his family, it punishes Moore's chances of getting even a fraction of the civil suit's reward. Further, I think that opinions like that punish all of society. If we really want people to pay their dues and then become productive members of society, we cannot eviscerate them from that one thing which they received education and training to contribute in. Self flagellation is a lose-lose-lose.

[motorcitykid 42]

Simply put. He has not paid for the "mistake" he made with regards to Moore.

Add in the fact he's well known as a self centered, me-first guy.

One who completely disappeared on Vancouver last year.

Hanging out with Markus Naslund, while choosing to alienate the rest of the team. Facts.

Throw in he is not the player he once was or should've been - and likely won't be again.

Injury prone. Doesn't do much when the games matter.

A huge black eye for any team carrying him.

This is a guy Detroit should have let pass by.

Comparable players? Guys who were moved at the deadline?

Seems pointless to name one, since in the course of a mere few months some around here

have forgotten who Todd Bertuzzi IS and rather choose to portray him as a god,

and say he's the missing piece here, or a sure as hell BIG one.

That is laughable. And figures why no other teams seemed to be interested in him.

Hoping a player with this track record BECOMES who you want him to be, is a hell of alot different than bringing over a player who IS.

Ken Holland truly knows how to pick 'em.

Edited March 3, 2007 by motorcitykid

[Mors 201]

People need to get over it, these threads just keep coming.

Moore is already suing for $20 million...which is more than a 4th line scrub like him probably would have made in his entire NHL career to begin with. What's done is done.

Aside from that, I haven't actually heard any report stating that Moore could never play hockey again...from what I've read, he was working out and prepared to start skating again as early as December 2004.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

That is laughable. And figures why no other teams were real interested in him.

"I'm thinking we would be better off looking at Todd Bertuzzi"

"I talk to Florida assistant GM Randy Sexton about Todd Bertuzzi, and he tells me "the guy we like is Perry." I offer him profanity"

"We looked at Bertuzzi, but the price was too high."

That's Brian Burke.

You lose.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Simply put. He has not paid for the "mistake" he made with regards to Moore.

Add in the fact he's well known to be a self centered, me-first guy.

One who totally disappeared on Vancouver last year in terms of leadership.

Eating out with Markus Naslund. While alienating the rest of the team.

These are facts.

Now throw in that he is not the player he once was, and likely won't again be.

He's injury prone.

He does squat when the games matter.

He's a huge black eye for any team carrying him.

This is a guy Detroit should have let pass by.

Comparable players? Guys who were moved at the deadline?

Kinda pointless to name anyone else, since in the course of a mere few months fans around here

have forgotten who Todd Bertuzzi IS, and rather choose to turn him into a god, ignore his resume, and say he's the missing piece here, or a sure as hell BIG one.

That is laughable. And figures why no-one else was probably real interested in him.

Ken Holland truly knows who to pick 'em.

You hate Holland, so I'm not suprised at your lack of any positive outlooks on trades he makes. You're biased, you can admit it, don't worry, no one outside of LGW will know. Oh, and your bias also shines through telling us that we make Bert into a God, haha, right. I think having Bertuzzi is a good thing, and I believe others think so too because he brings an aspect to this team that we have lost when Shanny left (is that Holland's fault too?) Heck, if Bertuzzi can play 3/4 of what he did a couple of years ago, he'll bring more to the table than any Guerin or Tkachuk could.

Sometimes all people need is a second chance - he had to feel pretty bad after coming back from the Moore incident and probably needed a change of scenery. I don't know much about the Vancouver incidents you speak of, but I would like to hear your sources on them, because you probably just listen to the news and take everything word for word as if they are inside the mind of the athlete. I'm not saying I know who and what Todd Bertuzzi is all about, but I am at least willing to give the guy a chance to prove himself before passing judgement in the present. He seems very excited to be a part of this team, it's a different group of guys than in Vancouver. There is no one around here that would tolerate selfish behavior and I'd be willing to bet that Chelios would be his opposite if any crap comes up, setting him straight. There is a great balance in the Wings locker room, one that has proven year after year that selfishness does not work in Detroit.

We gave up little to get a player that we needed, if for some reason he does not meet expectations in Detroit, we'll lose a late round pick and he won't be back next season.

If you look at the other players that we were possibly going to get: Forsberg looks invisible on Nashville, Tkachuk looks invisible on Atlanta, Guerin looks quite invisible on San Jose, even with Marleau out and him getting more time.

[Turretin 0]

People need to get over it, these threads just keep coming.

Moore is already suing for $20 million...which is more than a 4th line scrub like him probably would have made in his entire NHL career to begin with. What's done is done.

Aside from that, I haven't actually heard any report stating that Moore could never play hockey again...from what I've read, he was working out and prepared to start skating again as early as December 2004.

I am on the side of leaving Bertuzzi alone since he has done all that the judicial system, and the NHL has asked of him, but this is not a good argument to make because:

1. The 20M includes lawyers, doctors, physical therapists, loss of consortium, loss of enjoyment, lost wages, pain and suffering etc. It is incredibly ignorant, and callous to talk about how much a "4th line scrub" would have made.

2. Moore will never play NHL again for a number of reasons, not the least of which is insurance and liability reasons. He may be working out and skating, but no team is going to take a chance on him.

[Mors 201]

1. The 20M includes lawyers, doctors, physical therapists, loss of consortium, loss of enjoyment, lost wages, pain and suffering etc. It is incredibly ignorant, and callous to talk about how much a "4th line scrub" would have made.

I don't see why? that's what it all comes down to isn't it? Money...

Moore himself stated that the only reason he initiated the original lawsuit so early was because of the limited timeframe available to do so.

[motorcitykid 42]

You hate Holland, so I'm not suprised at your lack of any positive outlooks on trades he makes.

Hate Ken Holland? Grow up.

I disagree with lots of what he does. We've been over the reasons before.

As for the guys you named, come talk when the playoffs are done.

No-one said they guarantee Cups, but side by side, Bertuzzi is definitely not on the top of my wish list.

Apparently not many GM's either.

But yet again, there is one dude jumping up & down telling us how lucky we are ... Holland.

More of the same old same old.

You lose.

Brian Burke? Former Vancouver GM. Nuff said. Edited March 3, 2007 by motorcitykid

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Brian Burke? Former Vancouver GM. Nuff said.

Brian Burke, a GM who was seriously interested in Todd Bertuzzi, directly contradicting your original statement. Nuff said, indeed.

[Turretin 0]

I don't see why? that's what it all comes down to isn't it? Money...

Moore himself stated that the only reason he initiated the original lawsuit so early was because of the limited timeframe available to do so.

Non Sequitur. Are you trying to confuse me with non-logic? I am saying that Moore didn't bring the suit merely because he thought he would have made that much money in the mean-time. He brought the suit because he has a stack of bills on his desk that add up to millions of dollars. He is currently at a loss and would like to be made whole. Your insinuation that it is some kind of "get rich quick" scheme is ignorant of the heart-ache and hassle that comes when bringing a personal injury tort action under the common law. That being said, it doesn't always all come down to money.

[motorcitykid 42]

Brian Burke, a GM who was seriously interested in Todd Bertuzzi, directly contradicting your original statement. Nuff said, indeed.

Either he was in demand or he wasn't.

Do tell.

Cause holding up Brian Burke, [who along with Naslund & Marc Crawford defended what he did to Steve Moore], as proof other teams wanted him is hilarious.

We got him on the cheap. For next to nothing.

Safe to say the interest in Bertuzzi was pretty damn limited.

What is it Holland didn't get that most other GM's seemed to?

Edited March 3, 2007 by motorcitykid

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Claim: "That is laughable. And figures why no other teams were real interested in him."

Refutation: Linka

This is not rocket science.