A case for Nicklas Lidstrom

[SantaC 0]

I was reading HFboards and saw a thread asked who was the best european ever in NHL. Well, who do you think was the talked player? Jagr.

The Jagr bias on HFboards is scary, and I really mean scary. I can't believe that everyone still faps over that egoistic bum who has never showed great leadership. Jagr acted whiney at the end of his career in Pens and was a total disaster in capitals were he even got the coach fired. I despise bad character like that. Lidstrom on the other hand has always done his job in the quiet, never whined but always been a big player, something that Scotty Bowman and Yzerman always raved about. Leadership and character should also play a role how great you are. In Lidstrom's first year as a captain he almost got detroit to the Stanley Cup final. 18 points and great leadership in his first playoff season as a captain. That is amazing, and if it wasn't for some minor misstakes aginst the champion ducks, Red Wings would have won it all.

If you look back, Jagr hasn't won the cup since 92 when mr #66 played on his line, and he was terrible in washington, but if you bring that up you get shot down immediately.

And yet people said Jagr not even close. How is not close? Lidstrom is a valid opponent, but he was totally dismissed of course. Everyone brought up Jagr's point records and then said Lidstrom hasn't done a jack in the history book. ummm okay? What do they got against him again?

so Lidstrom has:

3 stanley cup trophies

5 norris trophies (tied with ray legend bourque)

several norris nominies

1 conn smythe (first and only european ever to win it)

1 olympic gold medal

1 world champ medal

Jagr also have an impressive trophy collection, but mostly art ross trophies which are KINDA hard to win as a defenseman.

Lidstrom's 5 norris is only eclipsed by Bobby Orr 8 and Doug Harvey 7, and this is all-time folks. You also have to remember that Lidstrom was nominated several times before he won since there was some bias against europeans in the past. There is no doubt that Lidstrom is one of an all-time greats regardless of nationality, and therefor I think he is the best european to play in the NHL so far.

he was also the first european to ever win a conn smythe (and only one), something that hasek and jagr failed to do.

I still think it is debatable who is the best euro ever, but HFboards comes with BS that it is not even close.

I just had to make a case for Lidstrom because he deserves it. What a great player, leader and character he is but also very overlooked despite all his hardware.

I am not a Red Wings fan myself, but I appriciate him as a player, so what do you think of Lidstrom vs Jagr?

[chrisdetroit 189]

I was reading HFboards and saw a thread asked who was the best european ever in NHL. Well, who do you think was the talked player? Jagr.

The Jagr bias on HFboards is scary, and I really mean scary. I can't believe that everyone still faps over that egoistic bum who has never showed great leadership. Jagr acted whiney at the end of his career in Pens and was a total disaster in capitals were he even got the coach fired. I despise bad character like that. Lidstrom on the other hand has always done his job in the quiet, never whined but always been a big player, something that Scotty Bowman and Yzerman always raved about. Leadership and character should also play a role how great you are. In Lidstrom's first year as a captain he almost got detroit to the Stanley Cup final. 18 points and great leadership in his first playoff season as a captain. That is amazing, and if it wasn't for some minor misstakes aginst the champion ducks, Red Wings would have won it all.

If you look back, Jagr hasn't won the cup since 92 when mr #66 played on his line, and he was terrible in washington, but if you bring that up you get shot down immediately.

And yet people said Jagr not even close. How is not close? Lidstrom is a valid opponent, but he was totally dismissed of course. Everyone brought up Jagr's point records and then said Lidstrom hasn't done a jack in the history book. ummm okay? What do they got against him again?

so Lidstrom has:

3 stanley cup trophies

5 norris trophies (tied with ray legend bourque)

several norris nominies

1 conn smythe (first and only european ever to win it)

1 olympic gold medal

1 world champ medal

Jagr also have an impressive trophy collection, but mostly art ross trophies which are KINDA hard to win as a defenseman.

Lidstrom's 5 norris is only eclipsed by Bobby Orr 8 and Doug Harvey 7, and this is all-time folks. You also have to remember that Lidstrom was nominated several times before he won since there was some bias against europeans in the past. There is no doubt that Lidstrom is one of an all-time greats regardless of nationality, and therefor I think he is the best european to play in the NHL so far.

he was also the first european to ever win a conn smythe (and only one), something that hasek and jagr failed to do.

I still think it is debatable who is the best euro ever, but HFboards comes with BS that it is not even close.

I just had to make a case for Lidstrom because he deserves it. What a great player, leader and character he is but also very overlooked despite all his hardware.

I am not a Red Wings fan myself, but I appriciate him as a player, so what do you think of Lidstrom vs Jagr?

Certainly in the top few.

What about Hasek? He's gotta be up there.

[SantaC 0]

sorry for the typo in thread title.

can a mod edit?

Certainly in the top few.

What about Hasek? He's gotta be up there.

Rather Hasek than Jagr, but my choice stands.

Edited August 11, 2007 by SantaC

[Rice 42]

I'll take Lidstrom over Jagr. Jagr may have been more dominant at his peak, but he was also playing with Lemieux. Lidstrom is the model for consistency in the NHL today. Jagr, on the other hand, has had some major ego issues causing problems with his game.

[superstarsingh 23]

Absolutely. Lids, Hasek, Jagr.

[jenova0 0]

Hasek played on some absolutely terrible Buffalo Sabres teams, and was still incredibly dominant. It's close though.

[Flip-check 6]

I'll take Lidstrom over Jagr. Jagr may have been more dominant at his peak, but he was also playing with Lemieux. Lidstrom is the model for consistency in the NHL today. Jagr, on the other hand, has had some major ego issues causing problems with his game.

Jagr's best years were after Lemieux, actually. He nearly hit the 150 point ceiling with Mario... but when he left for the first time, Jagr had three near or above 100pt seasons.

This is taken at a surface level look at stats though, because I never kept tabs on Jagr or the game as a whole those years.. whoever he was playing with then, they definitely weren't from Quebec.

[Cicada 4]

well, you mistake there in the first place was reading hfboards, which has the worse canadian / east coast bias of any board anywhere.

[SantaC 0]

well, you mistake there in the first place was reading hfboards, which has the worse canadian / east coast bias of any board anywhere.

I noticed. They dont see lidstroms achievements at all.

[kylee 727]

I'll take Lidstrom over Jagr. Jagr may have been more dominant at his peak, but he was also playing with Lemieux. Lidstrom is the model for consistency in the NHL today. Jagr, on the other hand, has had some major ego issues causing problems with his game.

id rather take an all time great defensemen in Lidstrom rather than Jagr and the offensive fire power.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Because of his unparalleled consistency, Nick is the best european player in league history. He's been the best defenseman in the league now for 10 years, and has been playing at an all-star level even before that. He's missed something like 20 games in a 15 year career, which means that on average he's played about 80.5 games a season. When you combine that with his playoff games, we're talking about a guy who's played 90 plus games a season for 15 years, 25-30 minutes a night against the best players on the other team, and he's done it at a higher level than anyone else over the last 10 years. Name me anyone else in sports who you can say that about. Hasek has been hurt too much to have that kind of consistency, and as great as Jagr is, he's had his share of injuries as well, and isn't as good an all around player as Lidtrom.

[SweWings 45]

Jagr isn't overrated - he is a great player and there is no question about that. He's got an attitude, a problematic one at times, that he shares with Hasek and which has worked in his favour but has sometimes led to a lot of crap being stirred up. People love flashy play and both Jagr and Hasek provide it. They are artists...

But Lidström is a different kind of artist - one that's always understated. As a defenseman he doesn't need to be noticed all the time, it's enough that those that can see it, appreciate it.

The fact that Lidström is the only Euro to win the Conn Smythe is big - very big. If Detroit had won the Cup this year, he likely would've had a second one. Jagr was good in these play-offs but would not have one the Conn Smythe - it would have gone to a different Euro on the NYR who was more important than Jagr, Lundqvist.

Whether Lidström is the best Euro to play in the NHL will be argued forever until a Euro with the points of Jagr and the leadership and loyalty of Sundin/Lidström appears.

[eva unit zero 271]

Jagr isn't even the best European forward ever in the NHL. Fedorov and Forsberg both have been better than Jagr, and Kurri is arguable.

Per 82 games played:

Jagr: 43g-62a-105pt

Fedorov: 34g-45a-79pt

Forsberg: 29g-73a-102pt

Kurri: 39g-52a-91pt

Now, based just on scoring, Jagr certainly comes out ahead. But you have to factor in that Forsberg was always defensively competent, while Jagr has always been a liability of epic proportions. Fedorov doesn't have the same kind of offensive numbers, but the thing about Fedorov that has rarely been true of any offensive star is that as good as he was offensively, he was even better defensively. Kurri was another offensive star who was excellent defensively...Kurri actually played the last half of his career as a defensive specialist, something Jagr will never be capable of.

I would say the top five Europeans in the NHL are as follows:

1) Lidstrom

2) Hasek

3) Fedorov

4) Forsberg

5) Jagr

[irishtemper14+25 11]

what about dats and zett...theyll be up there in a few years =D

[Kp-Wings 3]

Fedorov, in his prime, was the best European forward in the NHL ever. Yes, ever. Forsberg, Jagr, Kurri, Bure, none of them could match the all around game he possessed.

After that, I'd go down the list of Forsberg, Kurri, Bure, then Jagr. Jagr has had great seasons under his belt, but his so bad defensivily then he cannot be compared in the same league as the others. Forsberg, Kurri, and even Bure all had a 10 times better defensive game then Jagr.

Plus, at various times in their careers, they all scored just as much or even more points than Jagr, and none of them came with the pompus attitude that Jagr has. Just shows that Jagr is not the best European forward, and he's barely even a top 5 candidate.

As for top 5 all time European players, I'd rate as follows:

1. Lidstrom

2. Fedorov

3. Hasek

4. Forsberg and Bure tied

5. Kurri

Edited August 12, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Yzerman#19 17]

Lidstrom just need to become the 1st ever european Captain to lift the Cup this season to solidify his status as the greatest euro NHLer of all time.

[This Is Bida 0]

Fedorov, in his prime, was the best European forward in the NHL ever. Yes, ever. Forsberg, Jagr, Kurri, Bure, none of them could match the all around game he possessed.

After that, I'd go down the list of Forsberg, Kurri, Bure, then Jagr. Jagr has had great seasons under his belt, but his so bad defensivily then he cannot be compared in the same league as the others. Forsberg, Kurri, and even Bure all had a 10 times better defensive game then Jagr.

Plus, at various times in their careers, they all scored just as much or even more points than Jagr, and none of them came with the pompus attitude that Jagr has. Just shows that Jagr is not the best European forward, and he's barely even a top 5 candidate.

As for top 5 all time European players, I'd rate as follows:

1. Lidstrom

2. Fedorov

3. Hasek

4. Forsberg and Bure tied

5. Kurri

ummm... youre KINDA contradicting yourself there buddy.

first off you say Fedorov, in his prime, was the best. then below that, you say Fedorov would be number 2 in ALL TIME Euro players. You're right, when Fedorov was in his prime he was untouchable, however he peaked too quickly and because of his "pompus attitude" (which you criticized Jagr for the same) he threw away a Hall of Fame career to go try and be a leader on some crappy team only to be plaggued by injuries (which I'm sorry but its the Chaos Theory/Butterfly Effect, if he doesnt leave he PROBABLY doesnt get injured and to this day could be working towards a hall of fame career)

now if you want to say the "top 5 European players IN THEIR PRIME/WHEN THEY PEAKED, you'd rate as follows"

but when ya do that theres just WAY too much skepticizm and WAY too much room for debate for it to be logical

again the only way to truely validate any of this is PROBABLY best solved thru trophies/achievments which I'm sorry but I have a really hard time believing that Fedorov has more than Hasek, you're putting WAY too much personal bias into this discussion.

[norrisnick 1]

ummm... youre KINDA contradicting yourself there buddy.

first off you say Fedorov, in his prime, was the best. then below that, you say Fedorov would be number 2 in ALL TIME Euro players. You're right, when Fedorov was in his prime he was untouchable, however he peaked too quickly and because of his "pompus attitude" (which you criticized Jagr for the same) he threw away a Hall of Fame career to go try and be a leader on some crappy team only to be plaggued by injuries (which I'm sorry but its the Chaos Theory/Butterfly Effect, if he doesnt leave he PROBABLY doesnt get injured and to this day could be working towards a hall of fame career)

now if you want to say the "top 5 European players IN THEIR PRIME/WHEN THEY PEAKED, you'd rate as follows"

but when ya do that theres just WAY too much skepticizm and WAY too much room for debate for it to be logical

again the only way to truely validate any of this is PROBABLY best solved thru trophies/achievments which I'm sorry but I have a really hard time believing that Fedorov has more than Hasek, you're putting WAY too much personal bias into this discussion.

Fedorov is a mortal lock for the HOF. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Kp-Wings 3]

post deleted

Edited August 12, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Alex Ovechkin 0]

Nick & Dom are the best.

[SweWings 45]

Fedorov, in his prime, was the best European forward in the NHL ever.

...

As for top 5 all time European players, I'd rate as follows:

ummm... youre KINDA contradicting yourself there buddy.

That KINDA isn't a contradiction.

[timothy1997 0]

what about Stan Mikita?? He has to be up there with the greatest European players of all time.

[SweWings 45]

what about Stan Mikita?? He has to be up there with the greatest European players of all time.

Definitely. He was also a one-team player for his entire career which is nice...

[eva unit zero 271]

Definitely. He was also a one-team player for his entire career which is nice...

Mikita achieved that when being a one team player was far more common because of the way free agency worked.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Shanny owns Jagr, and Lidstrom owns Shanny... that was easy