Official Downey On Waivers

[eva unit zero 271]

read the sig (its alot easier to just say that now)

I didn't say he built them. You need to stop reacting and start reading Lou. Just because I don't support Aaron ******* Downey on the roster and have a rational argument about it does NOT mean I think Ken Holland is infallible or that I don't think toughness has a place on the roster. The fact remains...Ken Holland was the Wings' GM for two Cup wins...in the same time, no other GM has won more than that. Here's a list of other GMs who have won Cups since 1997.

Lou Lamoirello 2

Pierre Lacroix 1

Jay Feaster 1

Jim Rutherford 1

Bob Gainey 1

Brian Burke 1

So even if Holland is only credited with the 2002 Cup, he still at very worst is tied for second. And not one of those other guys has had the consistent success Holland has had. So at worst, Holland is one of the two best GMs in the league since he took over. Oh, we poor deprived Wings fans that we only have the SECOND best GM in the NHL. That's like, guaranteed last place finishes every year, right?

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I didn't say he built them. You need to stop reacting and start reading Lou. Just because I don't support Aaron ******* Downey on the roster and have a rational argument about it does NOT mean I think Ken Holland is infallible or that I don't think toughness has a place on the roster. The fact remains...Ken Holland was the Wings' GM for two Cup wins...in the same time, no other GM has won more than that. Here's a list of other GMs who have won Cups since 1997.

Lou Lamoirello 2

Pierre Lacroix 1

Jay Feaster 1

Jim Rutherford 1

Bob Gainey 1

Brian Burke 1

So even if Holland is only credited with the 2002 Cup, he still at very worst is tied for second. And not one of those other guys has had the consistent success Holland has had. So at worst, Holland is one of the two best GMs in the league since he took over. Oh, we poor deprived Wings fans that we only have the SECOND best GM in the NHL. That's like, guaranteed last place finishes every year, right?

Sometimes you have to look deeper than the numbers, they arent everything. I get on Holland because i dont feel he's proven yet that he can build a Cup winner. Please dont bring up last years playoffs and say they shouldve won...they were closer to losing to SJ than to beating Anaheim. Over the last few years now has been Holland's time to show what he really can do, you and I both know that 2002 Cup was much more about money than great GM skills. Ive seen you rip on Burke a good deal, but since we're just going by the cold hard numbers, would you say Burke is one of the top 3 GM's in the league???

[eva unit zero 271]

Sometimes you have to look deeper than the numbers, they arent everything. I get on Holland because i dont feel he's proven yet that he can build a Cup winner. Please dont bring up last years playoffs and say they shouldve won...they were closer to losing to SJ than to beating Anaheim. Over the last few years now has been Holland's time to show what he really can do, you and I both know that 2002 Cup was much more about money than great GM skills. Ive seen you rip on Burke a good deal, but since we're just going by the cold hard numbers, would you say Burke is one of the top 3 GM's in the league???

Burke inherited as much of his 07 team as Holland did his 97 team, when you count that Selanne and Niedermayer had made their decision prior to Burke's hiring. Your call on how much influence Burke had on his Cup.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Burke inherited as much of his 07 team as Holland did his 97 team, when you count that Selanne and Niedermayer had made their decision prior to Burke's hiring. Your call on how much influence Burke had on his Cup.

I give Murray the majority of the credit because of Getzlaf, Perry, and Penner, but I do think Burke did more than Holland in 97. Like it or not, and i know you dont, the Fedorov for Beauchemin trade was great and very key as was obviously the Pronger move. He had a team that got close, and went for the big move to put them over the top. Im not sure whether he was responsible for getting Moen or not, I think he was. He also had to pick a new coach and changed the style of the team into one built on a large amount of toughness and physical play. Holland had Bowman the whole time.

[esteef 2,679]

Sammy is a top six forward in the NHL based on his goals and points per game, and scored more goals during a disappointing 06-07 season than the older Downey has scored in his career. Sammy is better defensively also, and is not a soft player like you would like to have us believe.

Agree, I like Sammy.

Downey offers nothing but fighting, and he's not even that good at that. Last guy we had on the roster who offered nothing but fighting? Stu Grimson. We've won three Cups since he left the team.

Please. And him leaving was main the reason we won those Cups too right? LOL!

The point being made was that even if he had an enforcer, Pronger wouldn't have had to pay; we'd have just seen our enforcer fight Parros, May, or Moen...which deters Pronger from hitting Homer again in the future? The fact that Pronger has only been in one fight (a meaningless scrap against Krys Barch at the end of a period) since the 01-02 season tells me exactly how much deterring enforcers do. None at all.

The enforcer would damned sure be more likely to lay Pronger out and necessitate Parros or someone having to stick up for him. Who's gonna do that now? Ellis?

Edited October 7, 2007 by esteef

[esteef 2,679]

Kocur was a solid defender and provided clutch scoring in the playoffs.

Lapointe was a consistent 15-20 goal guy who peaked in the high 20s before leaving.

Shanahan was a consistent 30-40 goal guy.

McCarty was a solid defensive player and contributed offense enough to spend some time in the top 6.

Konstantinov was the best defenseman in the world.

Rouse, Ward, and Macoun were all solid defensive defensemen who played a grinding physical style.

None of those players fits the bill of 'brings fighting but nothing else.' Grimson is the last player we had who did.

Kocur, LaPointe and McCarty? Those guys were certainly not the cream-of-the-crop for those positions at the time. The main reason they were there was because of their willingness to drop the mitts. Nobody knew at that time Mac would turn out to be such a playoff beast, he was on the roster mainly because he fought. Kocur as well.

Kinda makes Grimson obsolete when you already have players that will fight, something we don't really have now. Unless you count big bad Drake.

esteef

[Heaton 1]

Sometimes you have to look deeper than the numbers, they arent everything. I get on Holland because i dont feel he's proven yet that he can build a Cup winner. Please dont bring up last years playoffs and say they shouldve won...they were closer to losing to SJ than to beating Anaheim. Over the last few years now has been Holland's time to show what he really can do, you and I both know that 2002 Cup was much more about money than great GM skills. Ive seen you rip on Burke a good deal, but since we're just going by the cold hard numbers, would you say Burke is one of the top 3 GM's in the league???

Burke is one of the top 3 GM's in the league, but he hasn't built a cuo winner either. If we're bagging on Holland for inheriting the right talent and having things fall into their lap, Burke is in the same spot.

Whenever top GM lists go out and people in the hockey know are asked or fans other than Wings fans, Holland is at the top. Why? It's more than just winning cups, it's about being consistent and staying a contender no matter what and that's what's happened. No other team in the league could've survived through the turnover that the Wings have had to, much less winning the President's Trophy and not missing a beat. At all.

Holland isn't the be all end all, but he certaintly isn't the clueless figure head that you paint him out to be.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Burke is one of the top 3 GM's in the league, but he hasn't built a cuo winner either. If we're bagging on Holland for inheriting the right talent and having things fall into their lap, Burke is in the same spot.

Whenever top GM lists go out and people in the hockey know are asked or fans other than Wings fans, Holland is at the top. Why? It's more than just winning cups, it's about being consistent and staying a contender no matter what and that's what's happened. No other team in the league could've survived through the turnover that the Wings have had to, much less winning the President's Trophy and not missing a beat. At all.

Holland isn't the be all end all, but he certaintly isn't the clueless figure head that you paint him out to be.

Im agreeing that Burke had alot fall into his lap like Holland, no denying that. im just saying he had more of an impact is all. So while similar, its not quite the same.

The fact that Holland gets so much credit is what makes me even firmer in my stance about him. I just dont feel its deserved. Im not saying he's horrible in all aspects....i just happen to believe that his philosophy will never lead to another Stanley Cup. Its the complete opposite of mine as you know, so its only natural id feel that way. He's going to have to prove me wrong in order for to change my opinion of him.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Lou_Siffer

[Heaton 1]

Im agreeing that Burke had alot fall into his lap like Holland, no denying that. im just saying he had more of an impact is all. So while similar, its not quite the same.

The fact that Holland gets so much credit is what makes me even firmer in my stance about him. I just dont feel its deserved. Im not saying he's horrible in all aspects....i just happen to believe that his philosophy will never lead to another Stanley Cup. Its the complete opposite of mine as you know, so its only natural id feel that way. He's going to have to prove me wrong in order for to change my opinion of him.

I can respect that, but as for Burke, I'm not exactly sure about the impact, the main cogs which won the cup with or without the other additions just flocked there and Burke got the credit. But that's the game, that's how it works, you have to be lucky to be good.

Will Holland's philosophy get this team to the cup? I believe so, you don't that's perfectly fine. I just feel it's dissapointing that last season this Wings team went to the WCF, played the style of hockey that people were screaming for since 2002 and it's dismissed as a fluke or it didn't happen. It's just really dissapointing that type of reaction. I don't think some fans know what they want, not necessarily talking about you, Lou.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Downey offers nothing but fighting, and he's not even that good at that. Last guy we had on the roster who offered nothing but fighting? Stu Grimson. We've won three Cups since he left the team.

Give me a ******* break. Stu Grimson was not the reason why we didn't win Stanley Cup's when he still played here.

All you're doing is clutching at straws to make an argument against Downey, and it's pathetic. What do you got against the guy anyways? How exactly does someone like Kopecky bring more to the lineup then Downey? Sure, Downey isn't a good hockey player, but he at least fights. Kopecky is a terrible hockey player, and is the softest 6'3 player I've seen since... Josh Langfeld. Downey at least brings toughness to the lineup.

You're arguements are so ridiculous. I can't believe you're going off as far to say as having a fighter will completely ruin the team of any chance of even making the playoffs.

[GuloGulo 0]

Kocur was a much better hockey player than Downey though. Same goes for Darren. Those two were NHL calibre PLAYERS, even Kocur. Downey isn't an NHL level player on any level. I still think he can play a role on this team, just like Brad Norton did. Our fourth line doesnt actually DO anything. Putting a fighter there doesnt make it worse. It's matched against other teams 4th lines and plays limited minutes. Brad Norton didn't hurt the team by being dressed and skating a few laps in a game.

Let Downey play

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Kopecky is about as useless as a bag of beans out there. Anyone who thinks that he should be in the lineup instead of Downey has their head up Kenny Holland's ass.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Grim was the best. Anyone who didnt like him is crazy. He was deadly, and Kocur and McCarty, and Lapointe and Probert and Rouse. Man, I LOVED the old days.

[Heaton 1]

Grim was the best. Anyone who didnt like him is crazy. He was deadly, and Kocur and McCarty, and Lapointe and Probert and Rouse. Man, I LOVED the old days.

You're not old enough to remember those days ;p

[Mors 201]

I thought I remembered Kopecky playing a more physical game when he was in last season, but from the looks of it he's not doing s*** out there this season...Why not give a Downey a shot, not like you're losing anything either way.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

You're not old enough to remember those days ;p

I remeber some of the old days

[johnnyoski 0]

Agree...

I thought Kopecky played with a little more grit and toughness last year before he got hurt. He hasn't shown any resemblence of that in the first two games this season. That probably explains why he's only getting 6 minutes/game.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Kopecky is about as useless as a bag of beans out there. Anyone who thinks that he should be in the lineup instead of Downey has their head up Kenny Holland's ass.

QFT.

I thought I'd never see the day when someone else on these forums finally sees the utter uselessness that Kopecky is. People on here actually act like he plays with grit or something. Just skating up to a guy and nudging him along is not grit in any way, shape, or form.

Kopecky is about as gritty as Alexei Yashin. Just because he can pretend to be physical by giving the other teams love taps in the corners doesn't make him a physical player. He's useless in all catagories of the game, and it confidens me to wonder why people think he's a better player then Downey.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[ben_usmc 253]

against the flames last year Kopecky was a beast hitting everything in sight, of course that was last year. This year he hasn't learned s*** I say trade him for Koci

[Kp-Wings 3]

against the flames last year Kopecky was a beast hitting everything in sight, of course that was last year. This year he hasn't learned s*** I say trade him for Koci

Unless you're referring to some meaningless regular season game that I can't remember, Kopecky didn't play against the Flames last year in the playoffs.

I can't remember him ever doing anything of meaningful impact, even before his injury. There's a difference between actual hitting and pretending to hit by nudging a guy ala Yashin style. Kopecky fits the bill for the ladder catagory, and since he has no scoring abilities either, he's pretty useless.

Unfourtuantly, Babcock likes him. Usually Babcock has good taste in the players he wants on his team (gritty, hard working, blue-collar guys) but I will never understand why he likes Kopecky. He's the exact opposite of everything Babcock does like in a player, except for his size (which he doesn't use at all, though, making that aspect pretty useless as well).

I hope Kopecky burns his bridges here and ends up being traded, waived, or is just gotten rid of. He is worthless, and is stealing ice time from players who deserve it more (Downey and Ellis).

Edited October 7, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[vangvace 12]

Picked on? These guys are professional world class athletes. Men in the primes of their lives. Not your kid sister. For f***'s sake, man. Get a grip.

If your not willing to fight for what is yours then that shows a lack of character IMO. And by yours I mean: your career, your family, your coworkers, your teammates.

In the realms of the Wings... until they are willing to fight (not necessarily dropping gloves) for each other then I do not believe they have shown what it takes to win a Stanley Cup.

Hudler doesn't give two s***s about who is on the bench or who he's tangling with. He's gone nose to nose with Winchester, Kubina, etc... Guys that have a foot and 50lbs on him. He's fearless. Bad example.

Have you ever heard of overcompensation? Think of it kinda like the "Little Man in a Big Truck" or "sportscar overcompensation" Does he go nose to nose with everyone or just the biggest guys?

Oh, and regarding Holland's ability to win Cups...name a GM who has won more Cups than Holland since Holland took over in 97. I'll give you a hint: the answer is NOBODY.

Wow... convenient that you chose since Holland has become "GM" as your starting point. Otherwise you'd have to acknowledge that Lamoriello has him beat and Lacoix ties him since the '95 strike/lockout.

Holland rant follows...

Holland and Co. have done well but I have a few points.

First, they are know around the as treating almost all players very well. Not a knock but a plus since it makes alot of things easier.

Second, precap they had almost no spending limit.

Third, in the salary cap era it's still too early to grade how well they are doing until 3 more seasons pass. That's when the wheels may come off on teams around the league. (using other leagues for reference BTW)

Fourth, Devellano should be given 10 times the credit Holland gets around here for the Wings rise from the "Dead Things", the scouting quality Detroit has, to the three cups, and to the team that is currently being iced. (Wait maybe not the last one )

End rant

As for Downey clearing waivers... I would have rather it have been Ellis.

I'm curious who will be brought up as the injury bug seems to be coming around since the Downey signing seems more and more like a tease and AHL contract every day. I shouldn't be surprised if he plays a career low number of games this season either.

Edited October 7, 2007 by vangvace

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Will Holland's philosophy get this team to the cup? I believe so, you don't that's perfectly fine. I just feel it's dissapointing that last season this Wings team went to the WCF, played the style of hockey that people were screaming for since 2002 and it's dismissed as a fluke or it didn't happen. It's just really dissapointing that type of reaction.

Burke is one of the top 3 GM's in the league, but he hasn't built a cuo winner either. If we're bagging on Holland for inheriting the right talent and having things fall into their lap, Burke is in the same spot.

Whenever top GM lists go out and people in the hockey know are asked or fans other than Wings fans, Holland is at the top. Why? It's more than just winning cups, it's about being consistent and staying a contender no matter what and that's what's happened. No other team in the league could've survived through the turnover that the Wings have had to, much less winning the President's Trophy and not missing a beat. At all.

Holland isn't the be all end all, but he certaintly isn't the clueless figure head that you paint him out to be.

And once more.

[Kp-Wings 3]

As for Downey clearing waivers... I would have rather it have been Ellis.

I'm curious who will be brought up as the injury bug seems to be coming around since the Downey signing seems more and more like a tease and AHL contract every day. I shouldn't be surprised if he plays a career low number of games this season either.

Agreed.

I don't understand why they were so quick to waive Downey like that. He's been on the team for less than a week (officially), and I think the judgement on him isn't right at this point. Ellis really hasn't proven anything, either, but he looks like he's going to get the free pass here. Management already told him to buy a house in the Detroit area, which means one thing and only thing.

Of course, he's still better then Kopecky, which is a situation I've covered many times. He's basically the Slovak version of Josh Langfeld. Big, useless player who doesn't do s*** yet still plays for some mysterious reason.

Kopecky doesn't even work hard, which really confuses me. Babcocks thing is for guys who work hard, which is what guys like Downey and Ellis have shown this year so far in training camp and preseason. Kopecky just goes through the motions. He has no natural scoring ability, doesn't hit people, doesn't fight, doesn't work hard, doesn't do anything at all. He is soft and lazy like Alexei Yashin, except he doesn't manage to score every once in a while like Yashin does. His talent level is even worse then Langfeld. I could go on for days about how useless Kopecky is, and how much I want him gone.

Of course, I know that'll never happen. It just so happens that every player that I hate or dislike in some way on the Wings sticks around until the bitter end. Ugh.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Heaton 1]

Agreed.

I don't understand why they were so quick to waive Downey like that. He's been on the team for less than a week (officially), and I think the judgement on him isn't right at this point. Ellis really hasn't proven anything, either, but he looks like he's going to get the free pass here. Management already told him to buy a house in the Detroit area, which means one thing and only thing.

Read the redwingscorner blog on one of the first 3 pages, it wasn't so "quick" to waive Downey, it was a finacial move, he's still with the team, still practicing and still can play at any time. People see the word "waive" and instantly associate it with being demoted, that isn't the case here.

Also, Ellis has a one-way contract, Downey signed the deal for exactly this scenerio.

BTW, management told Jason Williams to buy a house here too.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Heaton

[Spinner 6]

Kopecky is about as useless as a bag of beans out there. Anyone who thinks that he should be in the lineup instead of Downey has their head up Kenny Holland's ass.

...or Grigs