Official Downey On Waivers

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

BTW, management told Jason Williams to buy a house here too.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I can respect that, but as for Burke, I'm not exactly sure about the impact, the main cogs which won the cup with or without the other additions just flocked there and Burke got the credit. But that's the game, that's how it works, you have to be lucky to be good.

Will Holland's philosophy get this team to the cup? I believe so, you don't that's perfectly fine. I just feel it's dissapointing that last season this Wings team went to the WCF, played the style of hockey that people were screaming for since 2002 and it's dismissed as a fluke or it didn't happen. It's just really dissapointing that type of reaction. I don't think some fans know what they want, not necessarily talking about you, Lou.

Well, imo Pronger and Beauchemin were integral pieces, i think the possiblity is there that they couldve signed a defenseman through FA and still won without trading for Chris....but we'll never actually know that. So i think you have to give Burke credit for the two key moves.

I completely get what your saying. There definitely are alot of people who've done just what your saying. In my case though its always been a toughness issue as well as a lack of any predominant North Americans at the forefront of the team. They did play pretty gritty last year, i cant deny that, but looking at it on paper its still not a gritty, physical team by any means. For that reason i have to consider it somewhat of abberation until they do it again. I mean, many of the same guys were here against Edmonton in the year prior and they didnt play that way. So until i see it again and theres a consistency im not sold. I had hoped given the way alot of the unphysical guys during the regular season for the most part stepped up that area that management would see how that style of play worked and would look to add naturally physical players to the roster. Drake's ok, but i mean, as the only addition in that area (especially when considering losing Bert) i was highly disappointed.

[eva unit zero 271]

Give me a ******* break. Stu Grimson was not the reason why we didn't win Stanley Cup's when he still played here.

All you're doing is clutching at straws to make an argument against Downey, and it's pathetic. What do you got against the guy anyways? How exactly does someone like Kopecky bring more to the lineup then Downey? Sure, Downey isn't a good hockey player, but he at least fights. Kopecky is a terrible hockey player, and is the softest 6'3 player I've seen since... Josh Langfeld. Downey at least brings toughness to the lineup.

You're arguements are so ridiculous. I can't believe you're going off as far to say as having a fighter will completely ruin the team of any chance of even making the playoffs.

I didn't say that having a fighter ruins our chances. I said not having a fighter doesn't ruin our chances. There is a GIGANTIC difference there that you are apparently too dense to fathom. Oh and BTW...Kopecky is in over Downey because he is a better player, and he is stil young so he can IMPROVE. The Wings see Kopecky as developing into the checking line center and faceoff specialist of the next generation of Wings. For him to move into that role, he needs to play and gain experience. If I recall correctly, you are often of the position 'let the kids play' instead of putting in a useless vet. Why should it be different in this case? Because Downey's best skill is the ability to punch? Sorry...Kopecky playing now is better for the Wings now, and in the future. If you think having an aging fighter who won't make an impact in any way is more important than developing our prospects....you have issues.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

eva - You're the biggest numbers guy around here....as of now Kopecky has 1 pt in 33 career games, including playoffs. Would you be giving Downey this same leniency for that? I highly doubt it. If you'd at least criticize him for his distinct lack of any production whatsoever to this point, then you might come across as not just being against fighters.

Our problem is we're talking about a guy putting up fighter statistics but not fighting....and the same goes for Ellis.

[eva unit zero 271]

eva - You're the biggest numbers guy around here....as of now Kopecky has 1 pt in 33 career games, including playoffs. Would you be giving Downey this same leniency for that? I highly doubt it. If you'd at least criticize him for his distinct lack of any production whatsoever to this point, then you might come across as not just being against fighters.

At the same point in his career, Downey had 0 points in 1 game. And as I've said before (such as last year, with Norton) I am NOT against fighters. I am against guys who CAN'T PLAY HOCKEY, such as Norton and Downey. There were a couple games last season where Kopecky was the Wings' best forward. That will never occur for Downey. Kopecky's still young, and he's still developing. I would rather give a fourth line spot to develop a prospect than give it to someone who at best will be a wash in immediate benefit with said prospect, and at worst will be far worse.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

At the same point in his career, Downey had 0 points in 1 game. And as I've said before (such as last year, with Norton) I am NOT against fighters. I am against guys who CAN'T PLAY HOCKEY, such as Norton and Downey. There were a couple games last season where Kopecky was the Wings' best forward. That will never occur for Downey. Kopecky's still young, and he's still developing. I would rather give a fourth line spot to develop a prospect than give it to someone who at best will be a wash in immediate benefit with said prospect, and at worst will be far worse.

As long as your willing to say that at this point in time, Kopecky is no better than Downey in the lineup. Same production, but one will hit and fight. If you're argument is based strictly on potential and wanting to get him action, then although i dont agree i dont really have a problem with it. But using that argument with Matt Ellis doesnt fly whatsoever....

Edited October 9, 2007 by Lou_Siffer

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Thats your opinion eva. Downey can play hockey, it takes some talent to play in the NHL at all. I dont hate Kopecky, I actually like him, but I'd rather have Downey playing, he does serve a need. People would be less inclined to take a cheapshot at one of our guys knowing Drake and Downey are on the bench. Kopecky's skills are more of a large winger, he has a decent shot and some speed and size, he'd be better suited for a different role. Shame he's too old for Grand Rapids, he'd be a dominant player in the AHL, and hopefully could play a bigger role in the NHL then he is now, with 5 mins per game doing nothing, I just dont see the sense.

[eva unit zero 271]

Thats your opinion eva. Downey can play hockey, it takes some talent to play in the NHL at all. I dont hate Kopecky, I actually like him, but I'd rather have Downey playing, he does serve a need. People would be less inclined to take a cheapshot at one of our guys knowing Drake and Downey are on the bench. Kopecky's skills are more of a large winger, he has a decent shot and some speed and size, he'd be better suited for a different role. Shame he's too old for Grand Rapids, he'd be a dominant player in the AHL, and hopefully could play a bigger role in the NHL then he is now, with 5 mins per game doing nothing, I just dont see the sense.

I haven't been able to see a game this season, so I can't comment on Kopecky's play so far this year. From all accounts on here it has been disappointing, but some accounts I would say are biased in that respect.

Oh and BTW....having an enforcer does not serve as a deterrent to the cheap shot guys. Brian McGrattan was ten feet away when Steve Downie jumped into Dean McAmmond's head. Most guys who throw cheap shots DON'T CARE if there is an enforcer on the other team. So potentially wasting a solid prospect to add a second tier goon for a few regular season games is, to me, just idiotic.

[esteef 2,679]

At the same point in his career, Downey had 0 points in 1 game. And as I've said before (such as last year, with Norton) I am NOT against fighters. I am against guys who CAN'T PLAY HOCKEY, such as Norton and Downey. There were a couple games last season where Kopecky was the Wings' best forward. That will never occur for Downey. Kopecky's still young, and he's still developing. I would rather give a fourth line spot to develop a prospect than give it to someone who at best will be a wash in immediate benefit with said prospect, and at worst will be far worse.

What game was Kopecky the best forward last year? I don't remember that at all. And potential smotential! Potential is what you show in GR before you come up. When you get up to the NHL, you'd better be firing!

esteef

Oh and BTW....having an enforcer does not serve as a deterrent to the cheap shot guys. Brian McGrattan was ten feet away when Steve Downie jumped into Dean McAmmond's head. Most guys who throw cheap shots DON'T CARE if there is an enforcer on the other team. So potentially wasting a solid prospect to add a second tier goon for a few regular season games is, to me, just idiotic.

Everytime I see this rationale it just makes me want to puke. "Fighters don't completely stop cheapshots, therefore fighters are useless."

Blah!

esteef

[Opie 308]

That is the problem with this argument when someone mentions that Downey is a waste of a roster spot it is automatically assumed that the person saying it thinks all fighters are a waste of a roster spot.

Listen as much of a hard on for Downey that some of you have does not change the fact that no matter where he has gone, no matter what the roster in front of him he gets very very few starts. He has only played half a season 2x. That to me means that a lot of other teams (5 to be specific) have also thought that he was not good enough to earn a roster spot.

The reason why some one says fighters won't stop cheap shots is because others keep saying it will. So therefore if your logic is that Downey will prevent an injury and that is his value, then yes he is worthless to this team. Because as stated by many, fighters will not stop cheap shots (see Downie McAmmond for reference).

And yes comparatively at this point in time of their careers Kopecky is the better player, so he deserves the ice time.

And potential smotential! Potential is what you show in GR before you come up. When you get up to the NHL, you'd better be firing!

This happens in every sport, a player who has experience and is questionable to make the roster will often lose a spot to a player who has potential and can develop without hurting the team. If they are fighting over the same role and one player has the potential to do a lot of things and one player is one dimensional the team will more than likely chose the player with the all around game and hope to develop him by surrounding him with vets, Like Drake or Draper.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

If Kopecky has so much potential, then why does he get no icetime? As I said last night, we might as well call up Downey to fill those minutes.

[Guest micah]

Everytime I see this rationale it just makes me want to puke. "Fighters don't completely stop cheapshots, therefore fighters are useless."

Exactly. Certainly tough guys stop some cheapshots, I know Lapperierre has gon on reccord saying that he's a little more gentlemanly when there's a true heaveyweight arround - Roenick has said that he personally doesn't want to "have to anser to one of them" (enforcers), I'm sure they are not the only two men in the league who feel that having a toughguy dressed helps at least a little.

An enforcer is like a setbelt or a motorcycle helmet. They do not mean you won't die in an accident, they're just a little extra protection. so it is with enforcers and cheapshots. Bad cheapshots will still happen to Wild players with Boogaard on the ice, but I guarantee they happen less often.

[Dominator2005 558]

Exactly. Certainly tough guys stop some cheapshots, I know Lapperierre has gon on reccord saying that he's a little more gentlemanly when there's a true heaveyweight arround - Roenick has said that he personally doesn't want to "have to anser to one of them" (enforcers), I'm sure they are not the only two men in the league who feel that having a toughguy dressed helps at least a little.

An enforcer is like a setbelt or a motorcycle helmet. They do not mean you won't die in an accident, they're just a little extra protection. so it is with enforcers and cheapshots. Bad cheapshots will still happen to Wild players with Boogaard on the ice, but I guarantee they happen less often.

[lets go pavel 2]

Exactly. Certainly tough guys stop some cheapshots, I know Lapperierre has gon on reccord saying that he's a little more gentlemanly when there's a true heaveyweight arround - Roenick has said that he personally doesn't want to "have to anser to one of them" (enforcers), I'm sure they are not the only two men in the league who feel that having a toughguy dressed helps at least a little.

An enforcer is like a setbelt or a motorcycle helmet. They do not mean you won't die in an accident, they're just a little extra protection. so it is with enforcers and cheapshots. Bad cheapshots will still happen to Wild players with Boogaard on the ice, but I guarantee they happen less often.

I was reading The Code over the summer, and it brought up an interesting point with enforcers and cheap-shots ... often times the cheap-shot guy has to answer to his own enforcer, not the other team's ... let's say someone like Malts cheap shots Gaborik ... well the Wild are going to respond with Boogard, but he's not going to come after Malts, he would come after our enforcer ... now our enforcer has to go toe to toe with Boogard because Malts was an ass ... in the lockerroom you can be sure that our enforcer will have some words for Malts, and malts will think twice before doing it again because he's putting our own enforcer on the line to stick up for him ... but since we don't have an enforcer, and Boogard isn't going to come after Malts, noone is really going to have to answer for Malts' actions and he's morelikely to do them ... at least that's a theory anyway ...

[Opie 308]

If Kopecky has so much potential, then why does he get no icetime? As I said last night, we might as well call up Downey to fill those minutes.

Well judging off of what Babcock did with Hudler last year, he is going to keep the youngster in situations that are not over his head, ease him into the game and then by next year hopefully he will be ready to log full minutes. Plus with the injury to Franzen the line shifting puts babs in a pinch, now he has Kopecky and Ellis that are young and inexperienced. He could bench one of two players who are all around type players for an enforcer who can do nothing on the ice, but fight which now limits the offense even more.

Look at Downey's past, he doesn't make the line up very often at all, he is in his thirties and has yet to play even close to a full season. !

I understand that you guys like fighting find it entertaining as do I, but clambering for Downey every game is over the top. The guy has very little upside, I will say it again, I would not mind seeing him over Maltby but that is it.

Besides maybe getting in a fight what does Downey do in last nights game??

How does he change the face of the game??

Was there a blatant intent to injure last night? Was there a cheap shot that he could have prevented or revenged?

What does Downey provide last night?

And before you answer my questions with "Well what did Kopecky/Ellis do?" they are different players and have different roles and futures with the wings organization. Kopecky/Ellis will get that valuable NHL experience that people are looking for when bringing a player in. How many times do you hear "well they have no experience so lets go another route."?

Downey does nothing to change last nights game positive or negative, just like Ellis and Kopecky, difference being they are learning and Downey is who he is and that is all he will be. Therefore it is a positive having the youngsters in, maybe not today, but they are learning the NHL game and what it is like to play at this level.

[esteef 2,679]

Well judging off of what Babcock did with Hudler last year, he is going to keep the youngster in situations that are not over his head, ease him into the game and then by next year hopefully he will be ready to log full minutes. Plus with the injury to Franzen the line shifting puts babs in a pinch, now he has Kopecky and Ellis that are young and inexperienced. He could bench one of two players who are all around type players for an enforcer who can do nothing on the ice, but fight which now limits the offense even more.

Look at Downey's past, he doesn't make the line up very often at all, he is in his thirties and has yet to play even close to a full season. !

I understand that you guys like fighting find it entertaining as do I, but clambering for Downey every game is over the top. The guy has very little upside, I will say it again, I would not mind seeing him over Maltby but that is it.

Besides maybe getting in a fight what does Downey do in last nights game??

How does he change the face of the game??

Was there a blatant intent to injure last night? Was there a cheap shot that he could have prevented or revenged?

What does Downey provide last night?

And before you answer my questions with "Well what did Kopecky/Ellis do?" they are different players and have different roles and futures with the wings organization. Kopecky/Ellis will get that valuable NHL experience that people are looking for when bringing a player in. How many times do you hear "well they have no experience so lets go another route."?

Downey does nothing to change last nights game positive or negative, just like Ellis and Kopecky, difference being they are learning and Downey is who he is and that is all he will be. Therefore it is a positive having the youngsters in, maybe not today, but they are learning the NHL game and what it is like to play at this level.

So you see the future now? Downey is who he is? I wonder how many people said that about Cleary? Downey has experience, he fights and he hits. Hitting provides energy and momentum. Ellis and Kopecky collectively had about 8 minutes of ice time and only managed 1 hit between them. I'm not clamoring for Downey every night, but he can be rotated in just as easily as one of the aformentioned softies. I really wanted something to cheer Ellis and Kopecky for last might but they were invisible as usual.

esteef

[bringback91 2]

I'll put it this way. I'd like to see Downey in the line-up against Calgary.

[Heaton 1]

For that reason i have to consider it somewhat of abberation until they do it again.

Much like te Calgary Flames then? To be honest, I don't see a huge difference between the Wings and the Flames in terms of styles, sure Calgary has a few guys who play more physical than the Wings, Phaneuf, Regher and Iginla, but in reality, I've seen games where they get pushed around these days. The worst thing Sutter did was getting rid of the character guys, the Flames tried to turn into a skill team and they're paying for it with a poor defense and the loss of their intimidation.

The Flames give the illusion of being much tougher due to their borderline dirty play, they really don't have the right guys to wear other teams out anymore, but they have just enough guys to battle in the corners to give that illusion. They're a different team, but they have the mystique of the hard highting, always fighting, smash you in the mouth club that in reality has been long gone since 2004.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Heaton

[Opie 308]

Esteef,

Have you ever looked at Downey's Stats?

First of all he is 5 years older than Cleary, Cleary has also shown signs of being an offensive threat, hence being a first round 13th overall pick. Downey was undrafted.

Comparing Downey and Cleary shows that you just clambering for him to be in the game.

Oddly enough Cleary hasn't played less than half a season since Downey's rookie year. Since then Cleary has been playing in a hell of a lot more games and in the 00-01 and 01-02 seasons he had seasons very similar to last years. So it goes to show that yes there were people out there that probably saw that coming from Cleary.

However, again you comparrison is way off base. As Cleary can hit, provide energy, kill penalties, and create offense.

Do you know why he is a career 13th forward, because he has a one dimensional game. He provides hitting and fighting, that is it. And apparently he doesn't do it that well or he would get more playing time.

[esteef 2,679]

Esteef,

Have you ever looked at Downey's Stats?

First of all he is 5 years older than Cleary, Cleary has also shown signs of being an offensive threat, hence being a first round 13th overall pick. Downey was undrafted.

Comparing Downey and Cleary shows that you just clambering for him to be in the game.

Oddly enough Cleary hasn't played less than half a season since Downey's rookie year. Since then Cleary has been playing in a hell of a lot more games and in the 00-01 and 01-02 seasons he had seasons very similar to last years. So it goes to show that yes there were people out there that probably saw that coming from Cleary.

However, again you comparrison is way off base. As Cleary can hit, provide energy, kill penalties, and create offense.

Do you know why he is a career 13th forward, because he has a one dimensional game. He provides hitting and fighting, that is it. And apparently he doesn't do it that well or he would get more playing time.

I'm not turning Downey into Super Player or anything, I'm just saying if Ellis and Kopecky can throw up 0's for game stats we can get at least that out of Downey, plus a little more excitement to boot. The Cleary comment was only to show a similarity in position where Detroit took a chance on a guy that paid off big, not to compare players stats by any means. I'm well aware of what Downey is.

esteef

[Mors 201]

I think the bottom line of this whole discussion after yesterday's game is that Ellis and Kopecky both contributed nothing positive or negative to the game, so what would it hurt to at least alternate with Downey if he's only going to get 3-4 minutes of ice time anyway. At least he'll do some hitting...

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Why are we comparing points for 4th line players who play 5min a night. That is not their role.

[Heaton 1]

I think the bottom line of this whole discussion after yesterday's game is that Ellis and Kopecky both contributed nothing positive or negative to the game, so what would it hurt to at least alternate with Downey if he's only going to get 3-4 minutes of ice time anyway. At least he'll do some hitting...

Will he though? I don't remember him doing much hitting in the pre-season.

[Mors 201]

Will he though? I don't remember him doing much hitting in the pre-season.

I dunno, maybe..it'd be a lot cooler if he did

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Will he though? I don't remember him doing much hitting in the pre-season.

In the games I saw, he was hitting and skating well. Im not saying he's a superstar, im not even saying he's a good player, but I just want him to get an oppertunity here.