How many games is enough to call a spade a spade?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Here's some numbers for you non stat freaks. Yeah, I know, i'm only focusing on the bad numbers. Crazy me.

20: Goals given up by the Wings. Most goals given up by a Central Div. team. Currently only 2 Western Conference teams have given up more goals.

36%: Percentage of our total goals coming from the Power Play

50%: Percentage of our total goals coming from Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom

61%: Percentage of our total goals by forwards coming form DZH

64%: Percentage of our total points by forwards coming from DZH

6: Number of Wings forwards without a goal (Hudler, Filpulla, Kopecky, Matlby, Ellis, Drake)

So far i've been told "it's only been 3 games". Well, now its been 7 games and technically we have 3 losses. Our defense looks suspect and prone to giveaways. We proved yet again that we have difficulty playing against teams that are bigger and stronger combined with skill. I don't necessarily mean tougher either. Remember Perry knocking Chely down like he weighed 90lbs? That's what i'm talking about. We don't finish people hard enough and we aren't big enough to muscle people around in our own zone. IMO, we rely far too much on dogged pursuit because we don't have the ability to step up and separate people from pucks. This, along with the inability for any line to score goals except for Draper himself and I don't think it matters much that it's been only 3 games or "only 7 games". Where is this miraculous scoring going to take place? Cleary and Sammy are on pace for 11-13 goals each this year. And the output we were expecting (actually it was more like keeping our fingers crossed and praying) from Hudler and Filpulla is where exactly?

Aww, f***, it. I'm just bitter because I hate losing to Anaheim. Yeah, i'm jealous of the style they play. I'll admit it. I like that along with having good skill players, they have a guy on every line and every d-pairing that can and will drive you through the boards and then drop the gloves and fight you when you get up.

Did anyone else not like the way Lidstrom played that 2 on 1 when Pahlsson scored shorthanded? I've played D my whole life and i'm no Nick Lidstrom of course but that's absolutely not how I would have defended on that play. And no, I do not have 5 Norris trophies.

[jerm8352 3]

Your right. Nobody wants to split up the Hank, Datyuk, Homer line but we may need to just so that there is another scoring line. Secondary scoring on this team is non existent. But remember, according to everyone on this forum, we were gonna be ok because Grigorenko, Hudler, and Filppula were each going to score 40 goals this year.

I agree with you about the ducks. They are the team that I wish the Red Wings were. I was very happy and surprised though the one time that they ran Hasek and Lidstrom, Cleary, and Zetterberg jumped the guy that did. However, we were getting tossed around the rink like we were high school hockey players all night long.

[eva unit zero 271]

I am interested in why Hasek has been so terrible. Using the standard benchmarks of 2.00 GAA and .900 sv pct, Hasek has had ONE game that meets those, posting exactly those stats. How many games is enough before Osgood, who has been stellar, replaces Hasek as starter. Since we're assuming that current performance is a guarantee of the rest of the season's results.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

20: Goals given up by the Wings. Most goals given up by a Central Div. team. Currently only 2 Western Conference teams have given up more goals.

Switch the D pairings:

1. Lidstrom - Kronwall

2. Rafalski - Lilja

3. Lebda - Chelios

Booyah!

6: Number of Wings forwards without a goal (Hudler, Filpulla, Kopecky, Matlby, Ellis, Drake)

I'll give you Hudler and even Filpulla, but Kopecky, Maltby, Drake and Ellis (who hasn't even played a handful of those games). Talk about twisting stats. I'd be willing to bet there are other teams with similar numbers of offensive players that haven't scored so far this young season.

Aww, f***, it. I'm just bitter because I hate losing to Anaheim. Yeah, i'm jealous of the style they play. I'll admit it. I like that along with having good skill players, they have a guy on every line and every d-pairing that can and will drive you through the boards and then drop the gloves and fight you when you get up.

It all starts at the draft.

Did anyone else not like the way Lidstrom played that 2 on 1 when Pahlsson scored shorthanded? I've played D my whole life and i'm no Nick Lidstrom of course but that's absolutely not how I would have defended on that play. And no, I do not have 5 Norris trophies.

Than you wouldn't have made the correct play. Lids did it right, and if that pass wasn't perfect that goal would've never happened. There's a reason he has 5 Norris trophies, and playing perfect positionally is just one of the reasons he has that many. He was correct positionally. If you want to be mad about that play, Rafalski is the one that sprang the 2-on-1 to begin with.

Your right. Nobody wants to split up the Hank, Datyuk, Homer line but we may need to just so that there is another scoring line. Secondary scoring on this team is non existent. But remember, according to everyone on this forum, we were gonna be ok because Grigorenko, Hudler, and Filppula were each going to score 40 goals this year.

Franzen has played less than 2 games this season.

Draper: 5 Goals - 5 Points

Samuelsson: 1 Goal, 3 Assists - 4 Points

Cleary: 1 Goal, 2 Assists - 3 Points

Between the three of them thats comes to almost 2 points per game. No, its not DZH numbers, but how many times do the Red Wings have to start a season slow before the majority of you guys realize its kind of a trend of theirs?

Edited October 16, 2007 by Never Forget Mac #25

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

What do you think is going to happen when you take 26 PIM. Holmstrom had 10 PIM. He went to the bin 5 times. Filppula went back in right after he got out, he didn't even get over to the bench to get yelled at before he got lazy again and committed another penalty. I know that a lot of the calls were iffy at best, but that is the league today and they should know that by now. How can you get your second line going when you spend all of your time killing off stupid penalties?

Edited October 16, 2007 by LIDDYGIBBY5

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

What do you think is going to happen when you take 26 PIM. Holmstrom had 10 PIM. He went to the bin 5 times. Filppula went back in right after he got out, he didn't even get over to the bench to get yelled at before he got lazy again and committed another penalty. I know that a lot of the calls were iffy at best, but that is the league today and they should know that by now. How can you get your second line going when you spend all of your time killing off stupid penalties?

You're correct in saying "this is the league toady and they should know it", but you have to admit that most games aren't called *that* tight. That was just horrible for both sides.

What I saw last night wasn't hockey.

[bringback91 2]

How many games? I'd say around 20.

Of your %'s I'd say the only one that should be of a real concern right now and has potential to go for too long is DZH and point production. As far as other guys are concerend (Flip and Hudler especially) there being asked to fill roles that they just can't do. Flip's got the potential to be a top six guy, but he's just not there yet. Hudler for me has been the most disapointing, yet I see him as no better than a 3rd liner. he's in over his head and Babcock was using him very sparely toward the end of that game. The other guys you've listed at least are bringing something to the table, and while I'm not a big Ellis fan or anything, I thought he looked really good last night. Sammy gets too much crap around here he's a good player and outside of the big 3 on O, the best altrenitive you've got. I'm thinking Grigs is at least deserving a shot, I mean can he really do any worse? The toughness, I thought they hung in there and did just fine, I don't really think that had much of an impact on the outcome. I think the D has been equaly as bad as any other aspect. Ralf has looked like garbage IMO. He may be, but he hasn't looked any better at any part of the game than Schneider. I agree about Lids, but come on Gordo on here Lids is goldenboy A.K.A. "shoulder none of the blame". Hasek's fine that's the overreaction I find the funniest. It's just as silly to predict that Ozzie will be the saviour and post steallar numbers all season as it is to think Hasek wont.

[kylee 727]

let's all laugh about robert lang right now.

that lazy fool.

hey, lets put Grigs on the 1st line while were at it.

Edited October 16, 2007 by kylee

[al48 1]

Lack of defensive defensemen. Lack of a top 4 defensive defenseman. Lack of team defense. Defensive lapses. Plain and simple, this team isn't playing defense like it did last year, even through our wins.

[Rob the Badger 0]

When you play tired, you take more penalties. That's pretty much all there is too it. I didn't expect them to win last night and the third period let down wasn't a big shocker. THey played the night before and they're adjusting to the PST. Tired is as tired does.

[bringback91 2]

let's all laugh about robert lang right now.

that lazy fool.

hey, lets put Grigs on the 1st line while were at it.

Or we could laugh about Markov.

But it's okay, they could try Meech as the 3rd Dman.

[kylee 727]

Or we could laugh about Markov.

But it's okay, they could try Meech as the 3rd Dman.

haha, love it.

[nkuehnl 0]

How many games? I'd say around 20.

Babcock seems to agree with 20.

7 games isn't enough to map out the entire season, plain and simple. As has been mentioned, the Wings (and Hasek, specifically) are notoriously slow starters. I'm sure we'll all be having a late December/early January meltdown as well.

Cleary hasn't been putting up the points but he's been playing well. There's no reason to believe that he'll have an unproductive year. It's the same sort of reasoning that would make us think Draper is somehow going to keep this pace and score 50+ goals this season. However, it's unreasonable to expect any of these guys to produce like an actual 2nd line.

Hudler, Filppula, and Kronwall have all been extremely unimpressive. Lilja is terrible and his only redeeming quality was a "better than terrible" post-season. Drake has been invisible outside of some pointless fights. Maltby has been twice as invisible. Downey has been thrice as invisible. These things need to right themselves (Downey and Lilja may be physical impossibilities, however).

My major concerns:

1. Get Lilja the hell off the ice. Luckily for him, there's a guy named McCabe, otherwise he'd be the worst defenseman in the league right now. How many blatant turnovers do we need to see before a youngster steps in?

2. Establish a 2nd line. Either find a scorer to place there or break up DZH. One line teams don't work and that's what we are right now. Losing Franzen hurt, but mainly because there was a problem in the first place.

3. Find our defensive game. Too many bad turnovers and too much wandering.

#3 can/will be fixed soon, I'm sure. #1 will seemingly plague us forever. #2 is a realistic nightmare that might not be resolved in 6 months.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

The bottom line is that people need to step up and stop making idiotic mental mistakes. It doesn't matter what Babcock does with the lines, because players still have to go out there and play the game. I'm afraid that if we split our big line up, we won't have any scoring at all 5 on 5. As for the lack of physicality that some were complaining about, it's too late to do anything about that till the deadline. We should have addressed that in the offseason.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Switch the D pairings:

1. Lidstrom - Kronwall

2. Rafalski - Lilja

3. Lebda - Chelios

Booyah!

I'll give you Hudler and even Filpulla, but Kopecky, Maltby, Drake and Ellis (who hasn't even played a handful of those games). Talk about twisting stats. I'd be willing to bet there are other teams with similar numbers of offensive players that haven't scored so far this young season.

It all starts at the draft.

Than you wouldn't have made the correct play. Lids did it right, and if that pass wasn't perfect that goal would've never happened. There's a reason he has 5 Norris trophies, and playing perfect positionally is just one of the reasons he has that many. He was correct positionally. If you want to be mad about that play, Rafalski is the one that sprang the 2-on-1 to begin with.

Franzen has played all of 80-some minutes this season.

Draper: 5 Goals - 5 Points

Samuelsson: 1 Goal, 3 Assists - 4 Points

Cleary: 1 Goal, 2 Assists - 3 Points

Between the three of them thats comes to almost 2 points per game. No, its not DZH numbers, but how many times do the Red Wings have to start a season slow before the majority of you guys realize its kind of a trend of theirs?

Mac, Ellis has played 5 games, is 5 out of 7 not a handful anymore?

As for the Lidstrom play, you have your opinion, I have mine. Niedermayer is a left hand shot coming down the left side. Pahlsson, being left handed was in a prime shooting position if the puck got by Nick. If it were me, I would've drifted right down the middle, shading Pahlsson more from the pass and letting Dom take Niedermayer on the shot. Coming down the left side with NIck in the middle of the ice would've meant Niedermayer had to make a strong power move to his backhand to come across the crease. Odds are he would've had to shoot short side and had Dom not had to drift at all for the potential pass, he could've hugged the short side leaving nothing for Niedermayer to shoot at. Maybe you know more about d than me but after 20 years of it I am comfortable in my knowledge. Lidstrom didn't eliminate the shooter or the other guy. He should've marked Pahlsson and let Dom take Niedermayer on the shot.

edit: Just for reference, Nick shaded more towards Niedermayer than he did Pahlsson and obviously didn't really take the pass option away from Rob. Considering the odds that Niedermayer may or may not have cut back against the crease and go backhand, I would've taken Pahlsson out of the equation altogether.

Edited October 16, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[OsGOD 3]

I am interested in why Hasek has been so terrible. Using the standard benchmarks of 2.00 GAA and .900 sv pct, Hasek has had ONE game that meets those, posting exactly those stats. How many games is enough before Osgood, who has been stellar, replaces Hasek as starter. Since we're assuming that current performance is a guarantee of the rest of the season's results.

I have to say isn't it nice to see 2 of 2 with a 1.50GAA and a 93.9 SV%? awesome... the wizard is back.

[SweWings 45]

Hey...how bout that Spezza guy. I mean, come on, 0 goals for a player like that. Not good at all, Ottawa really needs him to step up and perform...

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Mac, Ellis has played 5 games, is 5 out of 7 not a handful anymore?

As for the Lidstrom play, you have your opinion, I have mine. Niedermayer is a left hand shot coming down the left side. Pahlsson, being left handed was in a prime shooting position if the puck got by Nick. If it were me, I would've drifted right down the middle, shading Pahlsson more from the pass and letting Dom take Niedermayer on the shot. Coming down the left side with NIck in the middle of the ice would've meant Niedermayer had to make a strong power move to his backhand to come across the crease. Odds are he would've had to shoot short side and had Dom not had to drift at all for the potential pass, he could've hugged the short side leaving nothing for Niedermayer to shoot at. Maybe you know more about d than me but after 20 years of it I am comfortable in my knowledge. Lidstrom didn't eliminate the shooter or the other guy. He should've marked Pahlsson and let Dom take Niedermayer on the shot.

edit: Just for reference, Nick shaded more towards Niedermayer than he did Pahlsson and obviously didn't really take the pass option away from Rob. Considering the odds that Niedermayer may or may not have cut back against the crease and go backhand, I would've taken Pahlsson out of the equation altogether.

Hindsight is 20/20.

The thing is Lidstrom was on the other side of the ice and was hauling ass just to get back. He not only had to race back to his end, he also had to come from the far boards. He was already behind the play, so it's not like it was a pretty standard 2 on 1. Nik had to angle off Niedermayer with the puck to prevent a clean breakaway and hope someone picked up the trailer.

Niedermayer just got the pass away before Lidstrom got to it.

Obviously since a goal was scored, some other tactic might have worked better. But as the play unfolded, I see why he played it the way he did.

[Lidstromrules16 7]

lids did all he could on that play. If neidermayer didnt saucer that puck perfectly, lids breaks it up. The way the game was being called, I bet Lids wanted to stay as far away from contact as he could, and I dont blame him.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Hindsight is 20/20.

The thing is Lidstrom was on the other side of the ice and was hauling ass just to get back. He not only had to race back to his end, he also had to come from the far boards. He was already behind the play, so it's not like it was a pretty standard 2 on 1. Nik had to angle off Niedermayer with the puck to prevent a clean breakaway and hope someone picked up the trailer.

Niedermayer just got the pass away before Lidstrom got to it.

Obviously since a goal was scored, some other tactic might have worked better. But as the play unfolded, I see why he played it the way he did.

I guess, but given that he was racing back, my opinion still stands that he should've taken away Pahlsson, Pahlsson would've been the easier guy for him to eliminate (by taking away the pass). I was always a stay at home type so the way I was brought up was not to go for the puck carrier but to eliminate the pass and let the goalie worry about just stopping the shooter so he doesn't have to cheat. Hindsight is 20/20 but that's how I would always play that scenario out. Well, if I was really trailing i'd probably toss a dive in their somewhere to take the pass lane away.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I guess, but given that he was racing back, my opinion still stands that he should've taken away Pahlsson, Pahlsson would've been the easier guy for him to eliminate (by taking away the pass). I was always a stay at home type so the way I was brought up was not to go for the puck carrier but to eliminate the pass and let the goalie worry about just stopping the shooter so he doesn't have to cheat. Hindsight is 20/20 but that's how I would always play that scenario out. Well, if I was really trailing i'd probably toss a dive in their somewhere to take the pass lane away.

Yeah, after watching the replay a few times though, basically it was a breakaway for Niedermayer. Lids had to go like hell to cover him.

Then Pahlsson outraces whoever that was next to him. If you look, Pahlsson is actualy behind the Wings player when the breakaway starts, then pulls away to make it a 2 on 1.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Mac, Ellis has played 5 games, is 5 out of 7 not a handful anymore?

You seriously want to split hairs by me saying "not even" a handful of games as opposed to "exactly" a handful of games. Instead of looking at how many games he's played, maybe you should look at the fact that his average TOI is a mere 4:13.

As for the Lidstrom play, you have your opinion, I have mine. Niedermayer is a left hand shot coming down the left side. Pahlsson, being left handed was in a prime shooting position if the puck got by Nick. If it were me, I would've drifted right down the middle, shading Pahlsson more from the pass and letting Dom take Niedermayer on the shot. Coming down the left side with NIck in the middle of the ice would've meant Niedermayer had to make a strong power move to his backhand to come across the crease. Odds are he would've had to shoot short side and had Dom not had to drift at all for the potential pass, he could've hugged the short side leaving nothing for Niedermayer to shoot at. Maybe you know more about d than me but after 20 years of it I am comfortable in my knowledge. Lidstrom didn't eliminate the shooter or the other guy. He should've marked Pahlsson and let Dom take Niedermayer on the shot.

edit: Just for reference, Nick shaded more towards Niedermayer than he did Pahlsson and obviously didn't really take the pass option away from Rob. Considering the odds that Niedermayer may or may not have cut back against the crease and go backhand, I would've taken Pahlsson out of the equation altogether.

It's pretty easy for you to make that assessment watching the game from the comfort of your couch. Don't you think Lids was a little more concerned with the initial 1-on-1 matchup rather than a trailer's (that may not even catch up) shooting position?

Don't get me wrong, when its a clear cut 2-on-1, you're supposed to do it exactly the way you just described. I'm not questioning that, but the way that play developed it definitely didn't make for a standard 2-on-1 positioning. The big thing here is that Pahlsson and Niedermayer were coming in at completely different speeds than a standard 2-on-1. If Lids streaks more towards the inside as you described, and Niedermayer continues at the pace he was skating, whats to stop (besides Chris Chelios ) Pahlsson from getting behind Lids and having a wide open side of the net to work with?

Also, it took a perfect pass over Lids stick to complete that play. Pahlsson even had to coral the puck slightly before shooting.

Lids isn't the goat on this play, Rafalski is.

[bringback91 2]

I guess, but given that he was racing back, my opinion still stands that he should've taken away Pahlsson, Pahlsson would've been the easier guy for him to eliminate (by taking away the pass). I was always a stay at home type so the way I was brought up was not to go for the puck carrier but to eliminate the pass and let the goalie worry about just stopping the shooter so he doesn't have to cheat. Hindsight is 20/20 but that's how I would always play that scenario out. Well, if I was really trailing i'd probably toss a dive in their somewhere to take the pass lane away.

I don't know I've played center for about 20 years or so and even I know you always take away the pass and let the goalie play the shooter. Do I think the goal was Lids fault, no. But I do think its funny when he may have picked the worse of two opitions, he escapes even the smallest bit of ridicule and so many quick to be angered by someone questioning the play. I get it, he's the most important player on the team, best dman blah, blah, blah but the guy evades all critisim around here while other not as gifted or skilled players get ripped to shreads. It's kinda funny to me.

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

I guess, but given that he was racing back, my opinion still stands that he should've taken away Pahlsson, Pahlsson would've been the easier guy for him to eliminate (by taking away the pass). I was always a stay at home type so the way I was brought up was not to go for the puck carrier but to eliminate the pass and let the goalie worry about just stopping the shooter so he doesn't have to cheat. Hindsight is 20/20 but that's how I would always play that scenario out. Well, if I was really trailing i'd probably toss a dive in their somewhere to take the pass lane away.

Nick played it right! He stayed between the shooter and the open player. He forced the puck handler to one side to help the goalie cut down the angle. It was just on hell of a saucer pass. The only thing that could have been done different is one of the other players on the ice start using their heads when passing, shooting, and playing defense.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I don't know I've played center for about 20 years or so and even I know you always take away the pass and let the goalie play the shooter. Do I think the goal was Lids fault, no. But I do think its funny when he may have picked the worse of two opitions, he escapes even the smallest bit of ridicule and so many quick to be angered by someone questioning the play. I get it, he's the most important player on the team, best dman blah, blah, blah but the guy evades all critisim around here while other not as gifted or skilled players get ripped to shreads. It's kinda funny to me.

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I have no problem admitting a mistake when any Red Wing makes one. I was the first to call out his OT mistake last season against the Blackhawks that lead to the game winner.