what would it take to get vinny lecavalier?

[egroen 384]

your insain if you think datsyuk is better then zetterberg

I didn't say that.

zetterberg can set up players just as well as datsyuk

"Just as well" -- You really think that?

and i dont know where you get this idea that datsyuk is so much better defensivly then zetterberg

I didn't say that.

Great post, though!

[Kutcher 0]

To be a power forward, you need to be a scoring threat, something that Thornton, really at any professional level, really never has been. Just because he is big, and can put up points doesn't make him a power forward.

Where is this definition that says, " A power forward must be a scoring threat " like honestly how is it any different that he gets assists instead of goals, he is still a big guy who can hit, fight and load up points on the score sheet. And his tenure in Boston proves his fighting capabilities, just you tube it.

[Guest wingswillwincup]

I didn't say that.

"Just as well" -- You really think that?

I didn't say that.

Great post, though!

Originally Zetterberg was better in the defensive end than Datsyuk, but I do not think you can make that claim anymore. Datsyuk is a constant danger out there ------ by you saying that its basically saying you find datsyuk is better defensivly then zetterberg , thats what i get from it

and yes i really do think zetterberg can set up guys just as well as datsyuk m you dont remember that little play he did against dallas when he went around the net and suckered everyone to him and sent the puck between his legs to datsyuk who was all by himself and put it in an open net ?? anyways i know thats just once time but he's set up alot of players before just that now hes concentrating more on his shooting then passing but he can if he'd like , i just rather he keeps playing the same way he is now still setting up guys but shooting alot more then he has in the past, datsyuk should shoot alot more as well maybe then he'd get 30 + goals every year as he should

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Where is this definition that says, " A power forward must be a scoring threat " like honestly how is it any different that he gets assists instead of goals, he is still a big guy who can hit, fight and load up points on the score sheet. And his tenure in Boston proves his fighting capabilities, just you tube it.

So using your logic, since he throws his weight around as much as Thornton, Kopy is a power forward. Come on man, e serious here. Joe Thornton is no more of a power forward than Adam Oates was.

[Grittzkey 1]

screw vinny, i want gratton

[WINGS TILL DEATH 9]

You don't think we can win the cup? we currently are the second best team in the in the league!

don't be stupid.

I think most of us know getting lecavalier is a pipe dream.

plus, learn some english

We were the second place team in the league last year too and we didn't win it. Regular season really means nothing. We've established what we need in pretty much very topic: size and grit. Thats how Anaheim beat us. If you think they beat us because their goals were pretty then I'm a model for GQ.

It would be nice to have Vinny, but I'd rather have McCarty back instead.

Edited November 13, 2007 by WINGS TILL DEATH

[Doggy 130]

Where is this definition that says, " A power forward must be a scoring threat " like honestly how is it any different that he gets assists instead of goals, he is still a big guy who can hit, fight and load up points on the score sheet. And his tenure in Boston proves his fighting capabilities, just you tube it.

Forget about it. It's a pointless argument. This guy has no idea what he's on about. He obviously doesn't like Thornton for some reason and is very critical of any compliments aimed towards him.

Fact is, Joe Thornton is one of the top power forwards in the league. He possesses above average offensive skill, is hard to knock off the puck, uses his size to oftentimes deliver big hits and at times drops the gloves. You'd have to be an idiot to argue a player like that is NOT a power forward.

Granted, this year he has started a little slow and his on-ice attitude and desperation have left a little to be desired.

[Kutcher 0]

So using your logic, since he throws his weight around as much as Thornton, Kopy is a power forward. Come on man, e serious here. Joe Thornton is no more of a power forward than Adam Oates was.

As I said you need to be a legit point getter aswell, making that comment about Kopy just proves your lack of crediblility. A power forward is not defined by just scoring goals, the words "scoring threat" mean more than just goals. If goals were all that mattered Thornton wouldn't have been 2nd in league scoring last season, and Ron Francis wouldn't have been indicted into the HOF. So assists are just as important to a power forward as goals.

[eva unit zero 271]

Where is this definition that says, " A power forward must be a scoring threat " like honestly how is it any different that he gets assists instead of goals, he is still a big guy who can hit, fight and load up points on the score sheet. And his tenure in Boston proves his fighting capabilities, just you tube it.

Proved he could get absolutely destroyed by Eric Lindros? Huh?

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

As I said you need to be a legit point getter aswell, making that comment about Kopy just proves your lack of crediblility. A power forward is not defined by just scoring goals, the words "scoring threat" mean more than just goals. If goals were all that mattered Thornton wouldn't have been 2nd in league scoring last season, and Ron Francis wouldn't have been indicted into the HOF. So assists are just as important to a power forward as goals.

The problem with Thornton is that unless he has good linemates, he isn't a scoring threat. Again, just because someone is big, and puts up points doesn't make him a power forward.

Forget about it. It's a pointless argument. This guy has no idea what he's on about. He obviously doesn't like Thornton for some reason and is very critical of any compliments aimed towards him.

Fact is, Joe Thornton is one of the top power forwards in the league. He possesses above average offensive skill, is hard to knock off the puck, uses his size to oftentimes deliver big hits and at times drops the gloves. You'd have to be an idiot to argue a player like that is NOT a power forward.

Granted, this year he has started a little slow and his on-ice attitude and desperation have left a little to be desired.

Show me once where I said Thornton isn't a good player. You can't, because I didn't. As I said before, and the whole premise for this debate, is I don't see Thornton as a power forward.

The real fact is that Thornton is one of the best passers in the game today, but he has no shot. Joe Thornton himself is not a scoring threat. When Thornton gets the puck, you'll never see anyone get worried about him scoring, they worry about the pass he is going to make.

[eva unit zero 271]

The problem with Thornton is that unless he has good linemates, he isn't a scoring threat. Again, just because someone is big, and puts up points doesn't make him a power forward.

Depends who you ask. I've seen 'expert' opinions that called Alexei Yashin and Jaromir Jagr power forwards...

[Kutcher 0]

The problem with Thornton is that unless he has good linemates, he isn't a scoring threat. Again, just because someone is big, and puts up points doesn't make him a power forward.

Show me once where I said Thornton isn't a good player. You can't, because I didn't. As I said before, and the whole premise for this debate, is I don't see Thornton as a power forward.

The real fact is that Thornton is one of the best passers in the game today, but he has no shot. Joe Thornton himself is not a scoring threat. When Thornton gets the puck, you'll never see anyone get worried about him scoring, they worry about the pass he is going to make.

And thats what makes him a scoring threat then. Like you just make a good argument against yourself. When he is on the ice there is a really good chance his team will score. That makes him a scoring threat.

In Boston he didn't have half the line mates he has now and he still put up big numbers. So obviously he doesn't need great players to be great. HE makes the other players on his line better than they would be on any other line. The only reason Cheechoo scores as much as he does is because of Thornton.

[Earthhuman 8]

Nik '"I'm one shift away from another freak season ending injury" Kronwall

I read that as I'm one s*** away from another freak season ending injury."

Which is basically true.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Depends who you ask. I've seen 'expert' opinions that called Alexei Yashin and Jaromir Jagr power forwards...

Jagr is actually a big forward, and can be hard to knock off the puck when he's on his game. Likewise, I've never thought of him as a player that is shy about standing in front of the net. I always have a hard time classifying what a power forward is, but it seems like if someone is european, then that disqualifies them in the minds of others from ever being a power forward.

[Opie 308]

The problem with Thornton is that unless he has good linemates, he isn't a scoring threat.

Not to derail this thread any further but I have to lean towards the fact that Joe T makes the linemates around him better as opposed to he needs good line mates. Cheechoo and Michalek are not exactly guys that before Thornton were predicted to do what they are/have done with him.

Joe Thornton is easily one of the top 5 in the game at the forward position. Argue the power forward thing all you want because that is a stylistic assessment, saying he needs good line mates is like saying Crosby needs good line mates. Obviously the better the line mate the better performance. And when Joe came into the league he was the definition of a power forward, he fought (not so well but he did it), he scored, he threw around some big checks, and he made great passes.

As he has developed he probably saw what that style of game earned Eric Lindros and has learned to play a different game, but then again he his a big strong body to try and move off of the puck. So like Eva said it all depends on your definition of power forward is.

But their is no arguing that he gets himself on the score sheet, not his line mates get him on it!

[Kp-Wings 3]

Depends who you ask. I've seen 'expert' opinions that called Alexei Yashin and Jaromir Jagr power forwards...

Jagr isn't physically imposing as far as checking, but he's really hard to knock off the puck, and isn't afraid to stand in front of the name and use his size there.

Yashin... eh... on the other hand...

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

I read that as I'm one s*** away from another freak season ending injury."

Which is basically true.

With Kronwall, no injury would surprise me. In fact, I'm waiting for Kronwall to follow in the footsteps of Tommy John and get some weird never-done-before surgery names after him.

And thats what makes him a scoring threat then. Like you just make a good argument against yourself. When he is on the ice there is a really good chance his team will score. That makes him a scoring threat.

In Boston he didn't have half the line mates he has now and he still put up big numbers. So obviously he doesn't need great players to be great. HE makes the other players on his line better than they would be on any other line. The only reason Cheechoo scores as much as he does is because of Thornton.

In Boston, Thornton had Billy G at the height of his game, and Glenn Murray at the height of his game. Great scores? Not really, but they were scorers who knew how to put the puck in the net. My point is this, Thornton needs someone to pass the puck to. Plain and simple. Joe has never been, nor will ever be, the guy who gets it done all by himself. It isn't his game, he doesn't have the talent to do it. Furthermore, the style of hockey he plays is not that of a power forward. He isn't a player who guys worry about getting hit by, or worry about fighting. Again, that's not to take anything away from Joe, he is a great talent. But what's so hard to understand about Joe not being a power forward?

I'm done with this. It's getting too long and drawn out. That's me, I've argued till I am blue in the face! --->:whoa:

[eva unit zero 271]

Jagr is actually a big forward, and can be hard to knock off the puck when he's on his game. Likewise, I've never thought of him as a player that is shy about standing in front of the net. I always have a hard time classifying what a power forward is, but it seems like if someone is european, then that disqualifies them in the minds of others from ever being a power forward.

A power forward is a strong, usually big guy who plays a physical brand of hockey and can produce offensively. Guys like Brendan Shanahan, Kevin Stevens, Gary Roberts, Keith Tkachuk, Eric Lindros, Jarome Iginla. That's a power forward.

Guys like Jagr, Yashin, Lang, Eric Daze, Marian Hossa, Jason Allison, Glen Murray? Those guys are big and strong and use their strength to produce offense, but does that make them power forwards?

The difference, and it is key;

Power forwards use their physical strength to control play when they have the puck, and they use it to control play when they DON'T. Guys like the second group are big strong guys who can brush off defenders and are strong on the puck...but you don't see them intimidating an opponent physically in the same manner. Opposing teams were scared of guys like Shanahan and Tkachuk because they could punish you physically, or on the scoresheet....Jagr, Yashin, etc. were/are intimidating only for their scoring presence.

[Kutcher 0]

With Kronwall, no injury would surprise me. In fact, I'm waiting for Kronwall to follow in the footsteps of Tommy John and get some weird never-done-before surgery names after him.

In Boston, Thornton had Billy G at the height of his game, and Glenn Murray at the height of his game. Great scores? Not really, but they were scorers who knew how to put the puck in the net. My point is this, Thornton needs someone to pass the puck to. Plain and simple. Joe has never been, nor will ever be, the guy who gets it done all by himself. It isn't his game, he doesn't have the talent to do it. Furthermore, the style of hockey he plays is not that of a power forward. He isn't a player who guys worry about getting hit by, or worry about fighting. Again, that's not to take anything away from Joe, he is a great talent. But what's so hard to understand about Joe not being a power forward?

I'm done with this. It's getting too long and drawn out. That's me, I've argued till I am blue in the face! --->:whoa:

So you said it yourself, he makes the players better than they would be, meaning he does not need quality players to play with.

He gets it done by himself all the time, he gift wraps goals for Guys all the time.

He doesn't have the talent, are you retarded or something he is arguably the 2nd BEST player in the league.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

So you said it yourself, he makes the players better than they would be, meaning he does not need quality players to play with.

He gets it done by himself all the time, he gift wraps goals for Guys all the time.

He doesn't have the talent, are you retarded or something he is arguably the 2nd BEST player in the league.

Well, with a hat trick tonight and 5 points in the game, Lecavalier has surpassed Z for the NHL scoring lead with 28 points.

[HenrikRules40 14]

Well, with a hat trick tonight and 5 points in the game, Lecavalier has surpassed Z for the NHL scoring lead with 28 points.

I know. I'm so bitter.

[Grittzkey 1]

To me its obvious the wings are not sold on Howard, So we really should Start giving Howard some playing time, to develop some type of value for trading.. Samuelson stats tell you he is a top 6 foward. and Franzen is a 3rd line grinder at best imo.

Howard/Samuelson/Franzen/Kronnwall. = 5.1m

For

Lecavalier/5th,7th Rounder = 6.7m

So all in all you have yourself a true top 6 forward. to pair up with Rex and Flip. You Relieve yourself of a selfish player. a goalie you wont see in a winged wheel for another 2 years.. and grinder... and a potential top 4 defencemen for the future..

Who gets the best of this deal? Tampa.

Our Losses Are-

Sammy - Selfish Top 6 Forward.

Franzen - A Streaky Grinder.

Kronwall - Potential Top 4 Defencemen. But We Got Many Others To Replace Him.

Howard - We Are Detroit, We Buy Our Goalies. Not Groom Them.

Tampa's Loss-

A Solid Scorer, But Recieve Alot Of Depth To Overall Revive There Team.

2 Late Round Selections.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Grittzkey

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

To me its obvious the wings are not sold on Howard, So we really should Start giving Howard some playing time, to develop some type of value for trading.. Samuelson stats tell you he is a top 6 foward. and Franzen is a 3rd line grinder at best imo.

Howard/Samuelson/Franzen/Kronnwall. = 5.1m

For

Lecavalier/5th,7th Rounder = 6.7m

So all in all you have yourself a true top 6 forward. to pair up with Rex and Flip. You Relieve yourself of a selfish player. a goalie you wont see in a winged wheel for another 2 years.. and grinder... and a potential top 4 defencemen for the future..

Who gets the best of this deal? Tampa.

Our Losses Are-

Sammy - Selfish Top 6 Forward.

Franzen - A Streaky Grinder.

Kronwall - Potential Top 4 Defencemen. But We Got Many Others To Replace Him.

Howard - We Are Detroit, We Buy Our Goalies. Not Groom Them.

Tampa's Loss-

A Solid Scorer, But Recieve Alot Of Depth To Overall Revive There Team.

2 Late Round Selections.

I just tried to make that exact deal in NHL 2008. Tampa's GM laughed at me and said he wouldn't give me a bag of pucks for those guys. That hurt my feelings.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

To me its obvious the wings are not sold on Howard, So we really should Start giving Howard some playing time, to develop some type of value for trading.. Samuelson stats tell you he is a top 6 foward. and Franzen is a 3rd line grinder at best imo.

Howard/Samuelson/Franzen/Kronnwall. = 5.1m

For

Lecavalier/5th,7th Rounder = 6.7m

So all in all you have yourself a true top 6 forward. to pair up with Rex and Flip. You Relieve yourself of a selfish player. a goalie you wont see in a winged wheel for another 2 years.. and grinder... and a potential top 4 defencemen for the future..

Who gets the best of this deal? Tampa.

Our Losses Are-

Sammy - Selfish Top 6 Forward.

Franzen - A Streaky Grinder.

Kronwall - Potential Top 4 Defencemen. But We Got Many Others To Replace Him.

Howard - We Are Detroit, We Buy Our Goalies. Not Groom Them.

Tampa's Loss-

A Solid Scorer, But Recieve Alot Of Depth To Overall Revive There Team.

2 Late Round Selections.

Oh good grief...

Lecavalier's going rate would most likely be any team's 2 best prospects (must be highly thought of guys)along with a quality young NHL'er with potential, and a 1st rd draft pick. Kindl and Filppula could qualify as 2 of the 3 players, but what we'd lack is that 2nd good prospect. No one else in our system would cut it as being good enough, definitely not Howard. We're pretty bare after Kindl. Also consider that our draft picks are typically near the end of the round, so that makes you have to offer up even better players than say someone like the Kings to make up for that. Our picks dont carry the same weight.

[dgodzina 0]

I wouldn't give up Zetterberg for anything, but Datsyuk and a mid roster player like Drapes or Maltby or Datsyuk and a 1st rounder would be ok with me to score Vinny. It would hurt to lose some familiar players, but you gotta give to get!